Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Zan15]

Another example of the Second Amendment in action,

SNIP

.

Insured Property > Human lives.

Glad you have your priorities in line.






Even more Second Amendment actions you missed:

Good Guys with a guns

https://www.cleveland.com/crime/2020...-shooting.html

King Sr. left a gun in his truck before his sons found it and it accidentally fired, killing Donell.


https://www.chron.com/news/article/U...g-15316866.php

KAMAS, Utah (AP) — A 10-year-old Utah boy died after an apparent accidental shooting on Tuesday, authorities said.
The boy was shot in the chest at a home near Kamas, about 44 miles east of Salt Lake City, and died despite deputies efforts to save him, the Summit County Sheriff's Office said.

More in the last week:

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/...miami/2243372/
https://www.lagrangenews.com/2020/06...year-old-girl/
https://www.wtvq.com/2020/06/02/ksp-...ng-lee-county/
https://www.wbbjtv.com/2020/06/03/ju...ntal-shooting/
https://butlerradio.com/person-recov...ntal-shooting/
https://idahonews.com/news/local/sho...tol-police-say
https://www.timescall.com/2020/06/03...y-in-longmont/
https://www.wjhl.com/news/man-suffer...e-in-bathroom/
https://www.nwherald.com/2020/06/01/...mself/a8zt352/

[Ghostpanther]

People seem to think well of Quarter Circle. It's basically just an AR pistol in 9mm and the gimmick to this particular model is it taking MP5 magazines.

What I really want is an HK SP5 (finally, finally a civilian MP5 for the US market) but they cost WTF money before you even do anything to them, they start at like 2800 and go up from there. And the binary trigger is another 450 or so, so yikes.

My son who is stationed in Paris , France, took his wife and children with him while he is over there. Besides him leaving his Springfield AR-15 here, his wife also left her 9mm handgun.
A HK P30SK 18+1 capacity. It is the best shooting handgun I have ever shot. Great balance and heavy enough, the recoil is not that bad at all. Also, surprisingly easy to rack.

She paid I am thinking, close to $800 for it. But it is too large and heavy for my taste when it comes to conceal carry. But would make a great home defense pistol.

[Svifnymr]

Any of my actual gun people want to give opinion on a possible purchase? Thinking of entering the 9mm SMG pistol market. I am looking right now between the CZ Scorpion Evo 3 S1... and a much more premium option of the Quarter Circle QC5, which is basically an 9mm AR pistol built to integrally accept MP5 magazines and available with rear or side charging handle.

The price points for the CZ is 850-1050 for the firearm and for the QC5 about 1700-1800. Either one would probably be getting up to another grand in accessories (starting with the Franklin Armory binary trigger) including a can, and maybe SBR'd.

Guess the question is... is the QC5 worth the difference? I keep thinking about the flexibility of being able to add mil-spec AR parts, of being able to replace with parts from my rifle... but MP5 magazines are also obscenely expensive, for example.

I can afford either, but obviously the Quarter Circle would be more of a bite and I know full well the difference between them could be a whole other gun of its own. Any thoughts?

I wouldn't bother with the QC, especially at that price. If you want MP5 mags (and thus no last round bolt hold open), get a PTR 9CT ($1500+) or actual HK SP5 ($2500+). The advantage of the MP5 is the roller delayed action, not the magazines. There's no advantage to an AR15 that takes MP5 magazines, since you can do Colt mags or Glock mags or even the CMMG Arc/ Mean Arms setups and have actual last round hold open.

The CZ is nice, though I lack one, typical straight blowback operation. Lots of options. I've got a PTR9CT and an AR with colt mags and both are fun, if you're going to silence it, nothing beats the MP5 style roller locks. MP5 mags are expensive though.

There's also some AK style 9mm's, all are straight blowback, along with the Ruger and Keltec. CMMG rotating bolt is an option, and some other brands are working on roller lock AR 9mm's. Also, SIG MPX, more money, seems overpriced to me. Gas operated, dirty, but supposed to be nice. SIG has a habit of constantly updating models, which is irksome for longevity.

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What I really want is an HK SP5 (finally, finally a civilian MP5 for the US market) but they cost WTF money before you even do anything to them, they start at like 2800 and go up from there. And the binary trigger is another 450 or so, so yikes.

The HK will come down slightly, eventually. The price varies $2500-$2800 ish, for an authentic german experience. At least they finally got the flapper mag release.

That said, some of the EU reg's mean you can't use a regular bolt carrier, and some other changes. Closest to "real" would be the Turkish MKE's, which are $1800-2200, but I don't really want that, nor the POF5 from Pakistan. So I got a PTR9CT.

While the K versions may look cooler, they're harder to suppress (require bolt change when suppressed) and less part interchanging with the other 91/93/94 lines.



As for me, my latest purchase was a new upper for an old AR15. The Air Force needed a new survival rifle for their pilots in case they have to bail out. They had size restrictions based on the bag that fits under the ejection seat. So the GAU -5a ACSW was born. So I bought an upper, registered a lower I already had, and now have my own copy.

It's also worth noting, it's a Colt AR15 lower, so it actually IS an AR15, not like the pretenders the media wants to label as one.

[Stormdash]

I wouldn't bother with the QC, especially at that price. If you want MP5 mags (and thus no last round bolt hold open), get a PTR 9CT ($1500+) or actual HK SP5 ($2500+). The advantage of the MP5 is the roller delayed action, not the magazines. There's no advantage to an AR15 that takes MP5 magazines, since you can do Colt mags or Glock mags or even the CMMG Arc/ Mean Arms setups and have actual last round hold open.

There's at least *one* advantage - it just looks a helluva lot cooler

The CZ is nice, though I lack one, typical straight blowback operation. Lots of options. I've got a PTR9CT and an AR with colt mags and both are fun, if you're going to silence it, nothing beats the MP5 style roller locks. MP5 mags are expensive though.

Right now price is doing the most work for the Scorpion. Putting in a binary trigger, maybe an EOtech, getting a can (and I'm of the mind in any build to put on a carbine length hand guard that fits over part of the can). I hadn't found the PTR or the CMMG in my look, I'll have to consider them. I had only been aware of the Zenith clone and I personally draw a line at giving Erdogan money even though damn do the Turks make some desirable firearms.

There's also some AK style 9mm's, all are straight blowback, along with the Ruger and Keltec. CMMG rotating bolt is an option, and some other brands are working on roller lock AR 9mm's. Also, SIG MPX, more money, seems overpriced to me. Gas operated, dirty, but supposed to be nice. SIG has a habit of constantly updating models, which is irksome for longevity.

Oh the MPX with the 8" barrel is just my jam and I'm already a Sig guy... but you can't find it anywhere now that they discontinued in favor of that noisy cricket version.

The other option I'm debating in all of this - you made me think of it by mentioning Ruger - is a .300 blk pistol. I guess my inclination to 9mm is I already have three 9mm pistols so it conserved ammo type. I'm also low-key a SHTF thinker and people got me worried about .300 availability.

My son who is stationed in Paris , France, took his wife and children with him while he is over there. Besides him leaving his Springfield AR-15 here, his wife also left her 9mm handgun.
A HK P30SK 18+1 capacity. It is the best shooting handgun I have ever shot. Great balance and heavy enough, the recoil is not that bad at all. Also, surprisingly easy to rack.

She paid I am thinking, close to $800 for it. But it is too large and heavy for my taste when it comes to conceal carry. But would make a great home defense pistol.

I love the P30 platform, and I kinda still wish I had one. What I've got instead though is a P229 and that's pretty hard to argue with. I used to have VP9, which is basically the striker counterpart to the P30 (even has the SK version). Closest I have to that still is the P99 AS compact, which has one of the best triggers I've ever shot. Hard as hell to find by comparison. I'm guessing the 18 round mag is what is putting you off the SK as a carry option - I would carry it with the 10 rd mag and pinky extension and have the 18 as the backup.

As for me, my latest purchase was a new upper for an old AR15. The Air Force needed a new survival rifle for their pilots in case they have to bail out. They had size restrictions based on the bag that fits under the ejection seat. So the GAU -5a ACSW was born. So I bought an upper, registered a lower I already had, and now have my own copy.

It's also worth noting, it's a Colt AR15 lower, so it actually IS an AR15, not like the pretenders the media wants to label as one.

That's a good looking one. I have an AR I made myself on a spikes lower/PSA upper, I just wanted a second option there.

[Svifnymr]

There's at least *one* advantage - it just looks a helluva lot cooler

Not cooler than an MP5... :-p

Right now price is doing the most work for the Scorpion. Putting in a binary trigger, maybe an EOtech, getting a can (and I'm of the mind in any build to put on a carbine length hand guard that fits over part of the can). I hadn't found the PTR or the CMMG in my look, I'll have to consider them. I had only been aware of the Zenith clone and I personally draw a line at giving Erdogan money even though damn do the Turks make some desirable firearms.

Yeah, even if you felt like giving Turkey or Pakistan money, you can't rely on the continued shipment of product if something goes wrong. Turkey and Pakistan had HK licenses, but they're long since expired, and have the original HK machinery from the 60's or 70's or whatever.
The Zenith has the advantage of the pivot pin, rather than a shelf, but that leads to some other oddities that I don't think are worth it being 10% more authentic.

Oh the MPX with the 8" barrel is just my jam and I'm already a Sig guy... but you can't find it anywhere now that they discontinued in favor of that noisy cricket version.

Give 'em a year or two and they'll probably replace it with something else anyway.

The other option I'm debating in all of this - you made me think of it by mentioning Ruger - is a .300 blk pistol. I guess my inclination to 9mm is I already have three 9mm pistols so it conserved ammo type. I'm also low-key a SHTF thinker and people got me worried about .300 availability.

The Ruger I meant was the 9mm charger take down. It's cheaper, but nothing special in what it is.

[Stormdash]

You may actually have sold a Banshee here. In fact, I think I've pencil built an 8" barrel 9mm AR pistol with the CMMG upper and ARC mags with the trigger I want that I can probably have a can, optic, and even Form 1 for ~2200? I'll make sure to post a pic if I do it!

[Ghostpanther]

Good grief! Even older cartoon characters are not safe from the gun control crowd......https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...bunny-cartoons

Elmer Fudd has made a big change for the newest series of "Looney Tunes" cartoons.

In the latest update of the series -- called "Looney Tunes Cartoons" and streaming on HBO Max -- the iconic character will no longer use a gun, according to the people behind the show.

“We’re not doing guns,” executive producer Peter Browngardt told The New York Times. “But, we can do cartoony violence — TNT, the Acme stuff. All that was kind of grandfathered in.”

Warner Bros., which has produced the series, released a clip that featured Elmer using a scythe to try catching Bugs Bunny instead.

But he will still use TNT. Lol!

And instead of shooting him, they think it is not as bad to have his head cut off? They should have at least used some brains and had Elmer use a fish net. :P

[Mayhem]

Good grief! Even older cartoon characters are not safe from the gun control crowd......https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...bunny-cartoons

Elmer Fudd has made a big change for the newest series of "Looney Tunes" cartoons.

In the latest update of the series -- called "Looney Tunes Cartoons" and streaming on HBO Max -- the iconic character will no longer use a gun, according to the people behind the show.

“We’re not doing guns,” executive producer Peter Browngardt told The New York Times. “But, we can do cartoony violence — TNT, the Acme stuff. All that was kind of grandfathered in.”

Warner Bros., which has produced the series, released a clip that featured Elmer using a scythe to try catching Bugs Bunny instead.

But he will still use TNT. Lol!

And instead of shooting him, they think it is not as bad to have his head cut off? They should have at least used some brains and had Elmer use a fish net. :P

Which one is more likely to happen?

a) A kid playing with a gun.
b) A kid playing with dynamite.
c) A kid playing with a scythe.

[the game]

Which one is more likely to happen?

a) A kid playing with a gun.
b) A kid playing with dynamite.
c) A kid playing with a scythe.

Where I'm from we played with toy guns as kids. We also played with fireworks. we also shot real guns at about 12 years old

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Which one is more likely to happen?

a) A kid playing with a gun.
b) A kid playing with dynamite.
c) A kid playing with a scythe.

Aren't all three found on farms? We for sure had a rifle and a scythe in our family's cabin in the woods. Pretty sure we played with fireworks and firecrackers as well.

While they're at it they should have changed Elmer's clothes from his hunter outfit to dark robes.

But anyway, classic American Cartoon with its high level of violence is not something I'd be showing young children anyway.

[the game]

Aren't all three found on farms? We for sure had a rifle and a scythe in our family's cabin in the woods. Pretty sure we played with fireworks and firecrackers as well.

While they're at it they should have changed Elmer's clothes from his hunter outfit to dark robes.

also while illegal in the US people still manage to get ahold of M-80's and cherry bombs. Both can do some serious damage.

[Ghostpanther]

Aren't all three found on farms? We for sure had a rifle and a scythe in our family's cabin in the woods. Pretty sure we played with fireworks and firecrackers as well.

While they're at it they should have changed Elmer's clothes from his hunter outfit to dark robes.

But anyway, classic American Cartoon with its high level of violence is not something I'd be showing young children anyway.

While a different topic, I am not convinced letting children watch violent cartoon/movies will form them into a violent criminal anyway. What they need the most is to have parents who teach them that violence is a fact in life and there are right and wrong ways to deal with it. And all life is to be respected.

And while on topic, we did let our kids watch violent movies and cartoons, but we never let them play with any tool which was dangerous or fireworks. We taught all 3 of our kids, that a firearm is a tool for specific purposes and one needs to know the dangers in having them. They all 3 have a carry conceal license.

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also while illegal in the US people still manage to get ahold of M-80's and cherry bombs. Both can do some serious damage.

Also pipe bombs. Which are not that hard to make.

[Stormdash]

Which one is more likely to happen?

a) A kid playing with a gun.
b) A kid playing with dynamite.
c) A kid playing with a scythe.

Which of the above can anyone demonstrate has ever happened as a result of watching Looney Tunes?

d) none of the above

Plus, there's something implicitly loathsome about erasing history. How the hell is anyone supposed to ever understand what society was in different eras if we continually delete all first hand evidence of it?

[Mayhem]

Where I'm from we played with toy guns as kids. We also played with fireworks. we also shot real guns at about 12 years old

Good, so you're able to answer this question, well done.

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Aren't all three found on farms? We for sure had a rifle and a scythe in our family's cabin in the woods. Pretty sure we played with fireworks and firecrackers as well.

While they're at it they should have changed Elmer's clothes from his hunter outfit to dark robes.

But anyway, classic American Cartoon with its high level of violence is not something I'd be showing young children anyway.

Dynamite found on a farm? wat?

Pretty sure fireworks and firecrackers aren't around all year long.

I don't know no what farms you grew up but on the ones I was, scythes typically didn't lay around because that's impractical also they weigh roughly 3-4 times what a typical gun weighs and a child would not be able to hold it how it's supposed to be held. But despite all that, your average child isn't living on a farm which reduces the likeness immensely.

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Which of the above can anyone demonstrate has ever happened as a result of watching Looney Tunes?

d) none of the above

Plus, there's something implicitly loathsome about erasing history. How the hell is anyone supposed to ever understand what society was in different eras if we continually delete all first hand evidence of it?

Oh please, you haven't answered the last time I called out your bullshit reasoning, spare me the idea that you somehow are a scholar on looney tunes related gun violence cases.

Riddle me this oh great master of logic: If no one shows a kid how to hold a gun, where to point it, or what to do with it, how would they even know its purpose?

Right, we're talking about kids cartoons not the history of the world, remember?

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Dynamite found on a farm? wat?

Pretty sure fireworks and firecrackers aren't around all year long.

I don't know no what farms you grew up but on the ones I was, scythes typically didn't lay around because that's impractical also they weigh roughly 3-4 times what a typical gun weighs and a child would not be able to hold it how it's supposed to be held. But despite all that, your average child isn't living on a farm which reduces the likeness immensely.

Explosives have been widely used in agricultural settings during the industrial era : to clear stumps, boulders, rabbit holes or do light demolition. Plus artificial fertilizers are a prime explosive ingredient.

There's plenty enough examples of "comedic" and tragic use of fairly powerful recreational explosives in both fiction and news tough.

I did not grow up on a farm, I'm talking about our family's cabin in the woods&mountain where my grandpa and uncles did things like build a dam and mini-hydropower poweplant, and where a scythe was a necessity to clear the slopy meadow to prevent the forest from encroaching.

The scythe was indeed a bit large for us kids, but we still had billhooks, machetes, axes and saws to fight against the forest, plus the likes of hammers, pickaxes and ice axes too.

In my mostly suburban home I had a baseball bat to boot.

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Right, we're talking about kids cartoons not the history of the world, remember?

Cartoons of that era struck me more as adult entertainment, given how they were also put to use during the war for both propaganda and troops training.

[Stormdash]

Oh please, you haven't answered the last time I called out your bullshit reasoning, spare me the idea that you somehow are a scholar on looney tunes related gun violence cases.

Please, your next rational political insight will be your first in life.

Riddle me this oh great master of logic: If no one shows a kid how to hold a gun, where to point it, or what to do with it, how would they even know its purpose?

They exist at all in reality and will be observed from innumerable sources. Nobody's demonstrated that cartoon (or video games) make children violent, Storm Thurmond.

Right, we're talking about kids cartoons not the history of the world, remember?

Culture is history. Art is history. Literature is history. And considering how much actual history is in the crosshairs (like the vacuous numbfucks in the UK defacing a statue of the man who probably deserves the most individual credit for the defeat of the Nazis, because he's a Nazi), there's no bad place to draw that line.

[Mayhem]

Please, your next rational political insight will be your first in life.

Okidoki Mr. people will kill regardless, might as well give them guns.

They exist at all in reality and will be observed from innumerable sources. Nobody's demonstrated that cartoon (or video games) make children violent, Storm Thurmond.

And apart from you and ignorant boomer from Ohio, no one suggested cartoons make kids violent. It was about playing with firearms, not turning kids into relentless killers that run through the woods trying to hunt rabbits.

Culture is history. Art is history. Literature is history. And considering how much actual history is in the crosshairs (like the vacuous numbfucks in the UK defacing a statue of the man who probably deserves the most individual credit for the defeat of the Nazis, because he's a Nazi), there's no bad place to draw that line.

I have no idea what you're talking about here and how that is related to kids cartoons.

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Explosives have been widely used in agricultural settings during the industrial era : to clear stumps, boulders, rabbit holes or do light demolition. Plus artificial fertilizers are a prime explosive ingredient.

There's plenty enough examples of "comedic" and tragic use of fairly powerful recreational explosives in both fiction and news tough.

I did not grow up on a farm, I'm talking about our family's cabin in the woods&mountain where my grandpa and uncles did things like build a dam and mini-hydropower poweplant, and where a scythe was a necessity to clear the slopy meadow to prevent the forest from encroaching.

The scythe was indeed a bit large for us kids, but we still had billhooks, machetes, axes and saws to fight against the forest, plus the likes of hammers, pickaxes and ice axes too.

In my mostly suburban home I had a baseball bat to boot.

Are you stuck in the past? All of the stuff you're bringing up as examples are strictly regulated in the US apart from tools that can be used to hurt people but usually aren't that deadly compared to firearms.

Cartoons of that era struck me more as adult entertainment, given how they were also put to use during the war for both propaganda and troops training.

Yeah, you're talking about looney toons from ww2 era, not the 60s.

[Kellhound]

Which one is more likely to happen?

a) A kid playing with a gun.
b) A kid playing with dynamite.
c) A kid playing with a scythe.

If properly taught how to respect dangerous items, none of them.

[Zan15]

If properly taught how to respect dangerous items, none of them.

bullshit, stories every week of families who fully respect guns and yet someone dies from an accidental shooting.

Hell you even have stories like a little girl at a gun range accidently killing people. How much further do they need to be taught? I am sure she respected the weapon about as much as you can.


its just another dismissive attitude and excuse.

Oh they were not the "good guys with guns" we were talking about (even though they were for 40 years till the accident happened)

Oh they did not respect the dangerous item (even though they respected it for 40 years till some little kid shoots his friend).


I don't believe that the cartoon thing would/will have any meaningful impact since I don't believe that violent tv/movies have the kind of influence on kids that they have been trying for decades to convince everyone that they do.

I am however am in favor of them removing them in order to make guns less socially acceptable and glorified in the media. Though cartoons are hardly the place to make the first stand....

[Kellhound]

bullshit, stories every week of families who fully respect guns and yet someone dies from an accidental shooting.

Hell you even have stories like a little girl at a gun range accidently killing people. How much further do they need to be taught? I am sure she respected the weapon about as much as you can.


its just another dismissive attitude and excuse.

Oh they were not the "good guys with guns" we were talking about (even though they were for 40 years till the accident happened)

Oh they did not respect the dangerous item (even though they respected it for 40 years till some little kid shoots his friend).


I don't believe that the cartoon thing would/will have any meaningful impact since I don't believe that violent tv/movies have the kind of influence on kids that they have been trying for decades to convince everyone that they do.

I am however am in favor of them removing them in order to make guns less socially acceptable and glorified in the media. Though cartoons are hardly the place to make the first stand....

Except in the very rare case of a dropped gun discharging, accidental shootings are 100% the result of failing to follow the basics of firearm safety. Thus, you are incorrect to state that they fully respected the firearm. If you fully respect a firearm, you will never cause an accidental shooting, PERIOD. My blood boils any time I hear "I thought it was unloaded!". It doesn't matter, you ALWAYS treat it like its loaded and the safety is off.

I would much rather every child be taught safe gun handling than to try to make them evil. More effective in the long run.