Why aren't Tauren and Draenei just Neutral?

[Raisei]

It was not Garrosh who cheated, it was a Tauren

Which Baine could not know at that time, maybe it was Magatha, maybe it was Garrosh, maybe it was both of them together. Considering Garrosh did not help Baine afterwards against Magatha's coup, a smart person would assume Garrosh at least knew of the poison and did not act on this to get rid of an old cow that was a thorn in his side.

he could beat both Sylvanas and Garrosh, but he did not by cowardice

Garrosh was many things, but he was not weak. Baine would not have stood a chance in single combat, even if he did trust the orc to fight fair and Sylvanas literally toyed with Saurfang, blocking a giant axe with a dagger and landing 5 hits before he had swung again. How in the world would Baine beat her? She beat the or a Lich King and an army of undead single-handedly.
I think you are just making up things now so your world view does not get disturbed by facts.

did i said Jaina anywhere? i said theramore

Theramore is Jaina's domain, she rules it as sovereign. Her decisions are what Theramore does. Even Varian did not get to tell her what to do. She cooperated with the Alliance plans because she saw the threat that Garrosh was.

considering he indeed is a coward, who didn't act by fear, and people are pretending the apst didn't happen ibecause onee vent in bfa who is questionable at best, indeed is amusing

I guess it is pointless, words to someone that fanatic are just a waste of time. Your blindness to all circumstances and facts that have been explained to you is becoming tiresome. No wonder Aucald gave up on talking to you. I'll not reply again, there is just no point.

therefore, the false information said taurujo was a threat

Try thinking logical for once. An outpost that trains warriors IS a threat. Even if you do not know they are planning an attack. A gun held in your face is a threat even if you don't know that the person holding it will use it.
Ever heard of the Cuba Missile Crisis? Nobody knew if those nukes would be fired (in fact nobody wanted to fire them because nuclear armageddon and such), but they were a clear and present threat that had to be countered.

[matrix123mko]

Jaina only became a threat to the Horde AFTER her city was bombed. She was one of the biggest advocates for peace on the planet. Garrosh had loudly declared his intentions for Kalimdor, so of course the Alliance fortified one of their major outposts there. Again, you just pick whatever detail you like and dismiss everything around it.

Are you sure about that?

These humans in the west, they don't just wanna camp out in Durotar, mon. They got bigger plans, and those plans involve takin' our home and leavin' our skulls on pikes.

Well I'm not havin' it. Nope! Not Lar! I've got family here in Sen'jin, and I'll be damned if I let one of those brutes put my Tai'tasi's head on a stick!

They've got their plans written down in there, mon. Big scrolls, real important-lookin'. We gonna burn those scrolls before they burn us.

[Raisei]

Are you sure about that?

Yep, very sure. Jaina was not an idiot though and she had met Garrosh many times before during the Northrend campaign and knew what he would do if he was in charge. She had to secure her people, but she was still trying for peace. All that ended with a bang.
The Alliance troops however are a different story, Varian was absolutely not interested in peace with the Horde at this time (and with Garrosh on the other side, that would have been impossible anyway) and Jaina could not give orders to them.

That quest text is pure assumption on whichever troll's speaking (Vol'jin I assume). From the tone it is not even clear if they can read the scrolls... but let us say it is as this person assumes. So what?
Of course a military camp has plans for all manner of contingencies, that does not mean they are preparing to act on them. The Pentagon probably has millions of contingency plans against every country of the world in some vault in case those should be attacking them.

[matrix123mko]

Yep, very sure. Jaina was not an idiot though and she had met Garrosh many times before during the Northrend campaign and knew what he would do if he was in charge. She had to secure her people, but she was still trying for peace. All that ended with a bang.
The Alliance troops however are a different story, Varian was absolutely not interested in peace with the Horde at this time (and with Garrosh on the other side, that would have been impossible anyway) and Jaina could not give orders to them.

That quest text is pure assumption on whichever troll's speaking (Vol'jin I assume). From the tone it is not even clear if they can read the scrolls... but let us say it is as this person assumes. So what?
Of course a military camp has plans for all manner of contingencies, that does not mean they are preparing to act on them. The Pentagon probably has millions of contingency plans against every country of the world in some vault in case those should be attacking them.

The problem is when these plans are in a camp 100 steps from your house instead of Pentagon. Commanders rarely share their plans with lower ranked soldiers until they are to be executed.

[Raisei]

The problem is when these plans are in a camp 100 steps from your house instead of Pentagon. Commanders rarely share their plans with lower ranked soldiers until they are to be executed.

Since we do not have any proof we can speculate away without getting anywhere, but the plans could have been there for a swift reaction in case of a Horde attack.
It's not like Varian can just e-mail them when that contingency happens. Magical means of transport sometimes exist and then don't exist so we cannot count on them. Frankly, a direct attack on Orgrimmar from Theramore is ridiculous, so I am inclinded to think these are really just plans "in case of emergency break glass" or they are deliberate misinformation that they wanted the Horde to get.

[matrix123mko]

Since we do not have any proof we can speculate away without getting anywhere, but the plans could have been there for a swift reaction in case of a Horde attack.
It's not like Varian can just e-mail them when that contingency happens. Magical means of transport sometimes exist and then don't exist so we cannot count on them. Frankly, a direct attack on Orgrimmar from Theramore is ridiculous, so I am inclinded to think these are really just plans "in case of emergency break glass" or they are deliberate misinformation that they wanted the Horde to get.

Well, the same can be said about emergency blight that Sylvanas prepared in Vanilla.

[mickybrighteyes]

What are the real differences, though?

The reporting of Malfurion's escape and the realization of plans being undone is what makes a major change in viewing motive. Simply arguing that "Teldrassil still burned so it doesn't matter" is a woefully narrowminded outlook.

The burning of Teldrassil in-game is basically told by a replaying of Sylvanas' "Warbringers" cinematic, which features her conversation with Delayrn, a brief recap of her death at Arthas' hands, and the destruction of Teldrassil by artillery fire. The only salient thing missing from the in-game sequence is Saurfang's reaction in the interim, which basically changes nothing - he has an outburst and is immediately cowed into inaction, that's basically it. And since that event is itself implied in the "Old Soldier" cinematic and the events of the Battle of Lordaeron, it still counts as having been recounted in-game, even if the sequence is a bit different from the novella.

The only thing missing is the awareness that the surely soon to be dead malfurion and his escape with tyrande isn't conveyed to Sylvanas before she monologues the history of her death at Arthas' hands to Delaryn Summermoon. You get to turn that bit in AFTER you watch teldrassil burn and hear Sylvanas state "they'll come for us"

Be we know now that the "weird over the top villain trope" was always intended, making your take on the events wrong on two counts.

Sorry, I just paid attention to the first time I played through and thought it was shit and the story kept building on information we weren't told outright and then sat there like "you didn't see the twist! she was evil all along!" With a shit eating grin... But it's not the first time they've sat there like their writing notes were all officially present in the game somewhere (even though that is sure as shit not true)

Teldrassil burned to ash because Sylvanas wanted death all along, and her rationale to Saurfang was (and always had been) a pack of lies sold to him and the greater Horde to pitch them headlong into an unending war.

You can take it as such, but I only accept that now because the story seems to utterly ignore that the rationale "lies" was still truth. Genn was still a mad dog basically starting wars without Anduin's awareness until behind the scenes events (from horde pov) in before the storm. Jaina was still "Remembers Theramore" gangsta mode going INTO BFA (and has a very short fuse even when Baine is delivering Derek post Kul Tiran Fleet's return). Anduin seems to lack any real control over his subordinates... you can call Sylvanas' list of "lies" as such but fact remains any real thought would see them as very plausible.

It's hilarious that now we have Tyrande giving the exact same lines in her hostility towards the armistice that only gets any acceptance among players now "because teldrassil". People scoffed at Stormheim, refuse to accept silithus should be viewed in anyway and only look at that Stromguard bullshit as horde fault or horde negative... ugh, but that's going into how bullshit spinning the war of thorns as "unprovoked" was.

The revelations of 8.2.5 and 8.3 simply show that you were originally mistaken in your take on the in-game events concerning the War of Thorns.

I think it's more an indication of how out of touch some of the writers are about the story written thus far.

If you believed Sylvanas ever meant good by the Horde, then you were simply wrong about her role in the story.

And you seem to miss the point of what makes me so angry over this whole mess...

It's not that I ever thought Sylvanas was good for the horde. It's that I'm pissed that I'm supposed to accept Saurfang and Baine as "good" for the horde. They have actions that SHOULD be condemned not praised. They have parts to play in this fracturing and civil war events that seem to just get blasted away because Sylvanas was just made so terrible and people should not blindly follow leadership... except when 'certain' leaders are there to lead.

IMO when Saurfang refused to escape Stormwind with us AND THEN SHOWED UP outside safe and sound. I was already against his presence. And when the story reached the point where Saurfang showed up with an alliance army at the gates... and I was supposed to be happy about it? That moment for me was the moment the writing team was trying to get the horde to feel when Sylvanas called the horde "nothing".

- - - Updated - - -

Jaina only became a threat to the Horde AFTER her city was bombed. She was one of the biggest advocates for peace on the planet. Garrosh had loudly declared his intentions for Kalimdor, so of course the Alliance fortified one of their major outposts there. Again, you just pick whatever detail you like and dismiss everything around it.

yes Jaina only became a threat after Theramore was bombed.

Theramore however wasn't exactly so peaceful, Northwatch and some other regions of Kul tiran (apparently) marines were set up in Durotar and the barrens as well as some less than peace minded forces within the marsh.

This being pre-cata. As cataclysm war ramped up Theramore wound up being the source of the land campaign that attacked into Kalimdor and would sack Camp Taurajo, attempt to seige Mulgore (event cut from game but still why the gates of mulgore closed), and ramp up military pressence across durotar, northern and southern barrens, and get into stonetalon mountains. Mind you this was all BEFORE theramore was bombed.

[Ielenia]

lol? why not? when you have a rebelion to back up that cowardice you can do anything

The coward you say Baine is would not risk going against Garrosh, rebellion or no rebellion.

first cowards don't badmouth, now cowards don't rebel, stop thinking this is a matter of 8 or 80, baine did acts of cowardice, that is just a fact

No, he did "acts" of duty, as his oath to the Horde demanded, until the Horde went too far for him to ignore.

and we know this is damn wrong, since Baine have completely chances of winning and even on against him in other timelines

No, you're wrong, here. Baine is not a fighter, and certainly isn't a fighter anywhere near Garrosh's level. Not to mention, as @Raisei pointed out, Baine did not know of Magatha's interference,

i dunno, by ltierally attacking durotar and reinforcing northwatch hold?

Attacking Durotar? When? And reinforcing Northwatch Hold? You mean protecting an Alliance outpost from possible Horde aggression as Garrosh had made clear of his intentions by then?

blablabla

Try to play it off as much as you want. It won't change the fact that you literally argued against yourself without noticing, and attacked your own words as if they were mine.

both were not militar targets, you can't distort that too

one was supposed to be a valid target by false information

No, the only one "distorting" anything here is you. Taraujo has always been a valid military target for as long as it supplied the Horde with soldiers. It was not the "false information" that sudden turned Taraujo into a valid military target.

"the kind of cward i imply to be" no friend, this is you projecting

Baine is a coward, i said

you said no, he isn't one

now you are going to say me he isn't the worst coward, just a bit coward, or what? this is getting pathetic

You're the one that called him a "spineless coward".

[Aucald]

The reporting of Malfurion's escape and the realization of plans being undone is what makes a major change in viewing motive. Simply arguing that "Teldrassil still burned so it doesn't matter" is a woefully narrowminded outlook.

It's not narrowminded, it's simply a point of fact insofar as the narrative is concerned. Sylvanas' decision to burn Teldrassil wasn't predicated on Saurfang's failure to kill Malfurion - it was a reaction to Delaryn's dying testament, in *both* versions of the narrative. She changed from bleeding out the Alliance through holding Teldrassil hostage to attempting to "destroy hope," a plan prompted by Delaryn's claims.

The only thing missing is the awareness that the surely soon to be dead malfurion and his escape with tyrande isn't conveyed to Sylvanas before she monologues the history of her death at Arthas' hands to Delaryn Summermoon. You get to turn that bit in AFTER you watch teldrassil burn and hear Sylvanas state "they'll come for us"

Again, that's not super-relevant to the outcome of the story. I think you've placed undue emphasis on it.

Sorry, I just paid attention to the first time I played through and thought it was shit and the story kept building on information we weren't told outright and then sat there like "you didn't see the twist! she was evil all along!" With a shit eating grin... But it's not the first time they've sat there like their writing notes were all officially present in the game somewhere (even though that is sure as shit not true)

Actually, her being "evil all along" was foreshadowed pretty hard - it was only a minority of people who actually though she was some kind of hero. I mean she was going to earn the ire of Elune of all things in "A Good War," did you really think her ultimate plans heralded anything good?

You can take it as such, but I only accept that now because the story seems to utterly ignore that the rationale "lies" was still truth. Genn was still a mad dog basically starting wars without Anduin's awareness until behind the scenes events (from horde pov) in before the storm. Jaina was still "Remembers Theramore" gangsta mode going INTO BFA (and has a very short fuse even when Baine is delivering Derek post Kul Tiran Fleet's return). Anduin seems to lack any real control over his subordinates... you can call Sylvanas' list of "lies" as such but fact remains any real thought would see them as very plausible.

The very fact that they were plausible was integral to their initial success swaying Saurfang and the rest of the Horde. The best lies are made of a healthy dose of truth, albeit twisted to a very specific bias or agenda. No one can accuse Sylvanas of lacking cunning, after all; she played the Horde like a harp and sent them headlong into a war they should've never fought crying "Lok'tar ogar" all the way.

It's hilarious that now we have Tyrande giving the exact same lines in her hostility towards the armistice that only gets any acceptance among players now "because teldrassil". People scoffed at Stormheim, refuse to accept silithus should be viewed in anyway and only look at that Stromguard bullshit as horde fault or horde negative... ugh, but that's going into how bullshit spinning the war of thorns as "unprovoked" was.

Even if you combined Stormheim and Silithus you wouldn't even touch the scale of what happened at Teldrassil.

It's not that I ever thought Sylvanas was good for the horde. It's that I'm pissed that I'm supposed to accept Saurfang and Baine as "good" for the horde. They have actions that SHOULD be condemned not praised. They have parts to play in this fracturing and civil war events that seem to just get blasted away because Sylvanas was just made so terrible and people should not blindly follow leadership... except when 'certain' leaders are there to lead.

You don't have to accept Saurfang or Baine as good for the Horde - but that doesn't imply they are worse than Sylvanas was. I also don't think Baine or Saurfang would be great leaders for the Horde, but they'd be several orders of magnitude better than Sylvanas was.

IMO when Saurfang refused to escape Stormwind with us AND THEN SHOWED UP outside safe and sound. I was already against his presence. And when the story reached the point where Saurfang showed up with an alliance army at the gates... and I was supposed to be happy about it? That moment for me was the moment the writing team was trying to get the horde to feel when Sylvanas called the horde "nothing".

Saurfang came to Orgrimmar with a coalition force of Horde and Alliance troops. He also refused to escape Stormwind because it would've likely meant his assassination in the dark to do so, as shown by Sylvanas' actions i.e. his actual escape later on and her attempt to kill both him and Thrall in Outland. But regardless of this, I think you've got your mind concluded and are unwilling to even consider different viewpoints.

[Syegfryed]

Which Baine could not know at that time, maybe it was Magatha, maybe it was Garrosh, maybe it was both of them together. Considering Garrosh did not help Baine afterwards against Magatha's coup, a smart person would assume Garrosh at least knew of the poison and did not act on this to get rid of an old cow that was a thorn in his side.

no, they all kenw it was MAghata and her trick alone, don't make him dumber

Garrosh was many things, but he was not weak. Baine would not have stood a chance in single combat, even if he did trust the orc to fight fair

Baine literally won a mak'gora Against Garrosh in other timeline

how the heck you are saying he don't have a chance?

and Sylvanas literally toyed with Saurfang, blocking a giant axe with a dagger and landing 5 hits before he had swung again. How in the world would Baine beat her?

torn her apart with his massive tauren strenght

I think you are just making up things now so your world view does not get disturbed by facts.

pot

Theramore is Jaina's domain, she rules it as sovereign. Her decisions are what Theramore does. Even Varian did not get to tell her what to do. She cooperated with the Alliance plans because she saw the threat that Garrosh was.

thats simple bullshit that you are trying to excuse her of making theramore an alliance base

I guess it is pointless, words to someone that fanatic are just a waste of time. Your blindness to all circumstances and facts that have been explained to you is becoming tiresome. No wonder Aucald gave up on talking to you. I'll not reply again, there is just no point.

like i said, no matter how the alliance guys, or others want to paint Baine, he still is a coward who didn't act by fear the entire expansion

Try thinking logical for once. An outpost that trains warriors IS a threat.

nope isn't

Even if you do not know they are planning an attack. A gun held in your face is a threat even if you don't know that the person holding it will use it.

there is no gun dude, and you put your face there, the alliance was invading taurens lands and thinking taurens living there are a threat to their invasion, i don't know this can be more obnoxious

- - - Updated - - -

The coward you say Baine is

oh you mean the one you are projecting, that i meant to say, cause i don't don't what i said, you do

No, he did "acts" of duty, as his oath to the Horde demanded, until the Horde went too far for him to ignore.

and genocide, killing his own soldiers with blight isn't too far? genocide of inocents isn't too far for the horde? but toying with jaina brother was? all right

No, you're wrong, here. Baine is not a fighter, and certainly isn't a fighter anywhere near Garrosh's level.

Baine is not a fighter, then is he what? a priest?

Baine, tearing him apart with his bare hands, a mak'gora from another timeline, but lets see how you twist to say that timeline don't count

Attacking Durotar? When?

Like people posted, attacking sen'jin vilalge, go do the Horde intro quests and you can see it

And reinforcing Northwatch Hold? You mean protecting an Alliance outpost from possible Horde aggression as Garrosh had made clear of his intentions by then?

no, im mean reinforcing an outpost to be used to attack horde.

rly cute you putting all the alliance aggression and land invasion on "possible aggression of Garrosh" l

Try to play it off as much as you want. It won't change the fact that you literally argued against yourself without noticing, and attacked your own words as if they were mine.

dude, you are literally projecting and inventing "what kind of coward im implying Baine to be" you are making a strawman and attacking it with all you have

No, the only one "distorting" anything here is you. Taraujo has always been a valid military target for as long as it supplied the Horde with soldiers. It was not the "false information" that sudden turned Taraujo into a valid military target.

it was literally the false information who make then attack it because it was nothing before, just a tauren village in their own damn lands

You're the one that called him a "spineless coward".

a fucking coward he is, and you can twist that out.

[guisadop]

Because of the stupid faction divisions/limitations that should have been removed long ago

[Ielenia]

oh you mean the one you are projecting, that i meant to say, cause i don't don't what i said, you do

There is no projection from my part. Those were your exact words to describe Baine.

and genocide, killing his own soldiers with blight isn't too far? genocide of inocents isn't too far for the horde? but toying with jaina brother was? all right

There are casualties of war, and top of that, there's what Sylvanas said: "would you like to go help the dead, or would you rather help the living?" as she used Baine's propensity for peace and helping the wounded against him.

Baine is not a fighter, then is he what? a priest?

You know full well what I meant. Baine is a pacifist, not a fighter. Garrosh, on the other hand, is a powerful and experienced fighter.

Baine, tearing him apart with his bare hands, a mak'gora from another timeline, but lets see how you twist to say that timeline don't count

You said it yourself. "Another timeline". What are the differences in that timeline? Is Baine more aggressive in that timeline? Is he stronger? Does he have more experience fighting? Did Garrosh not get Magatha to "bless" his axe?

dude, you are literally projecting and inventing "what kind of coward im implying Baine to be" you are making a strawman and attacking it with all you have

I'm not projecting anything. Again, those were your exact words and now you're trying to backpedal.

it was literally the false information who make then attack it because it was nothing before, just a tauren village in their own damn lands

It was the information that caused the attack, but the information being false does not make Taraujo any less of a valid military target.

[Syegfryed]

There is no projection from my part. Those were your exact words to describe Baine.

is still you making up something that you think i implied

There are casualties of war,

ah, so genocide of innocents is just that, casualties of war, no problem, so do you agree there was not a problem there then?

and top of that, there's what Sylvanas said: "would you like to go help the dead, or would you rather help the living?" as she used Baine's propensity for peace and helping the wounded against him.

literally what, she use his cowardice to keep him on the leash

You know full well what I meant. Baine is a pacifist, not a fighter. Garrosh, on the other hand, is a powerful and experienced fighter.

And this is just wrong, Baine is a fighter, he is a warrior, and fight like a beast he is, but he is too much of a coward to do so

You said it yourself. "Another timeline". What are the differences in that timeline? Is Baine more aggressive in that timeline? Is he stronger? Does he have more experience fighting? Did Garrosh not get Magatha to "bless" his axe?

He is the same in both timelines, the difference is his attitude, in that, he was not a coward, and face Garrosh

I'm not projecting anything. Again, those were your exact words and now you're trying to backpedal.

i still saying he is a coward, you in other hand is attributing another kind of coward that you imply and project that i have said and is attacking that, because once again, you have nothing to do, and nitpicking apparently is your sport.

It was the information that caused the attack, but the information being false does not make Taraujo any less of a valid military target.

indeed does, because it was not, and was not a threat, since its a tauren village in their own lands that the alliance invaded.

[Ielenia]

is still you making up something that you think i implied

I'm not "making up" anything, nor saying you're "implying" anything, when the meaning of your words is explicit.

ah, so genocide of innocents is just that, casualties of war, no problem, so do you agree there was not a problem there then?

"Innocents"? Those were soldiers who died in Lordaeron, not "innocents".

literally what, she use his cowardice to keep him on the leash

So caring for the living and treating the wounded is "cowardice" in your eyes? Your definition of "coward" constantly changes, I guess.

And this is just wrong, Baine is a fighter, he is a warrior, and fight like a beast he is, but he is too much of a coward to do so

He would not win against Garrosh.

He is the same in both timelines, the difference is his attitude, in that, he was not a coward, and face Garrosh

Okay. Where do I read this timeline?

i still saying he is a coward, you in other hand is attributing another kind of coward that you imply and project that i have said and is attacking that, because once again, you have nothing to do, and nitpicking apparently is your sport.

Once again, I don't have to "imply" anything when the meaning of your words is very explicit.

indeed does, because it was not, and was not a threat, since its a tauren village in their own lands that the alliance invaded.

No, it does not. What makes Taraujo a valid military target was because it was used in military operations, such as training of soldiers for the Horde.

[Syegfryed]

I'm not "making up" anything, nor saying you're "implying" anything, when the meaning of your words is explicit.

you can't decide what my words have to say lad, you don't get to apply meaning to what i have to say, you are constantly nitpicking this factor even when we make it already clear show your bad faith here trying to fuck up this threat just to get the end in the conversation, or perhaps you are just fishing infractions in this and in the other thread? is that your plan?

"Innocents"? Those were soldiers who died in Lordaeron, not "innocents".

?????

im talking about obviously, about teldrassil

dude, just stop

So caring for the living and treating the wounded is "cowardice" in your eyes? Your definition of "coward" constantly changes, I guess.

now you have to invent things, and bring up unnecessary shit to keep this bullload going?

He would not win against Garrosh.

except he did won...

Okay. Where do I read this timeline?

war crimes

Once again, I don't have to "imply" anything when the meaning of your words is very explicit.

your understanding of the meaning is one thing and not universal

No, it does not. What makes Taraujo a valid military target was because it was used in military operations, such as training of soldiers for the Horde.

it was not used in military operations, and the only thing it did was to sometimes train warriors and hunters.

[Ielenia]

you can't decide what my words have to say lad,

I'm not "deciding" anything. I'm just using the correct definitions of the words and terms you're using. If you're using them incorrectly, whether intentionally or accidentally, that's on you. Not me.

?????

im talking about obviously, about teldrassil

dude, just stop

No. You should "just stop". Because you switched over to Teldrassil with no warning whatsoever, considering we were talking about what happened in the Battle for Lordaeron, discussing Sylvanas having plagued her own troops engaged in combat with the Alliance when she plague-bombed the Alliance soldiers.

now you have to invent things, and bring up unnecessary shit to keep this bullload going?

I did not "invent" anything. Those are the facts presented to us. The only "bullload", as you call it, is your insistence that Baine is somehow a coward.

except he did won...

war crimes

Ahh. War Crimes. As far as I recall, we only have a single glimpse of that event, completely unaware of everything else around it that could have caused the different outcome. But, no. You just go ahead and assume that the Baine and Garrosh in that timeline are exactly, 100% alike, no distinction whatsoever to our timeline's Baine and Garrosh.

your understanding of the meaning is one thing and not universal

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess "spineless coward" must have a meaning different than its real definition to you, then?

it was not used in military operations, and the only thing it did was to sometimes train warriors and hunters.

In other words... it was used for military operations.

[cparle87]

Dreanei: Blood elves attacked them ( aka members of the horde). ( i know...it was only a small group etc etc etc). But in that moment for them meeting blood elves, made them the enemy.

Those were Kael'thas's blood elves. And blood elves hadn't even joined the Horde by that point in the storyline.

[Aresk]

Those were Kael'thas's blood elves. And blood elves hadn't even joined the Horde by that point in the storyline.

Weren't all blood elves Kael'thas' blood elves up through basically the Scryers' defection at Shattrath? In Hellfire Peninsula, the blood elves going through the pilgrimage are Horde members and following Kael'thas' promise of salvation in Outland. The fact that Kael drove the Draenei from Draenor and attacked them again in Azeroth, then allied with the Horde, seems enough to merit some caution if not hostility between the Draenei and the Horde (not to mention the situation they allied themselves into when joining the Alliance).

[Mehrunes]

It's an outpost training and outfitting soldiers for the Horde, and that it could be used as staging grounds for an incursion into Durstwallow Marsh. Everything you're using to disqualify Taraujo as a valid military target also disqualifies Theramore.

Theramore forces were present and were engaging the Horde in three Horde zones, three contested zones, attempted to attack a fourth Horde zone and were planning to attack Orgrimmar itself as early as 4.0. Not to mention their attack on the Barrens predates Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale. All of @Syegfryed's arguments about Taurajo were about how it was at best a hypothetical threat. So your claim that everything they are using to disqualify Taurajo as a valid target also disqualifies Theramore couldn't be more inaccurate if you tried.

Even with Baine single-hoofedly being responsible for uniting the Horde and Alliance against Sylvanas with his act of courage we still get the thread degrading into hating on him. Good grief, I swear the guy could have died this expansion saving a hundred horde orphanages from Sylvanas setting them on fire and we'd still have people here wanting to hunt him into the Shadowlands to dig up this dead horse and continue beating it.

Single-hoofedly? Tauren don't have hooves for hands, making your paraphrasing of the phrase "single-handedly" nonsensical even in context. Also, there's this thing called Sad Orc that was at least as much of an influence there. Besides, you're treating the uniting of Horde and the Alliance as something automatically good, let alone something that'd negate Baine's treason and his low character. None of that is correct.

He did face Garrosh. Because he joined the rebellion. A coward would not.

A non-coward would actually do something against other than joining after the rebellion began. Meanwhile all he did after joining was telling Vol'jin to grovel to his Alliance overlords and suffering from delusions about Garrosh betraying his father when he already knew for almost three years that Garrosh didn't know about Magatha's plot (not to mention the whole bit about Cairne being the one to challenge Garrosh, for BS reasons no less). As a member of the Darkspear Rebellion he was about as courageous as the chair Vol'jin sat on.

Alright. Let me rephrase: "that's like as if your drunkard of a neighbor who has tendencies to lash out and physically assault random people now owns a gun."

Which still doesn't make sense in context of Taurajo in particular. When has Taurajo itself had such tendencies? Never, you say? Besides, even if talking about the Horde as a whole this rephrasing conveniently ignores that New Horde's tendency to "lash out" is usually tied to Alliance aggression. You know, like was the case in that whole war.

It can, yes. And I've explained that. Civilians? Check. "Non-threatening"? Check.

The largest Alliance base on the continent that was not only a seat of an Alliance force of its own (Northwatch Expeditionary Unit), but acted as a staging ground for Alliance reinforcements from EK to constantly pour through straight into Horde territory of the Barrens with a highway connecting it right to Theramore itself is "non-threatening" to you?

Of course he could have. Not like he witnessed a mak'gora with Garrosh where his dad was killed by cheating or anything. Wait. That happened? Oh damn Baine would have to be a blithering idiot to trust that Garrosh would fight fair when he challenged him. Circumstances might not exist in your black and white worldview but for most people they do.

Don't talk about circumstances not existing in @Syegfreyd's worldview when you are blatantly ignorant of the fact that Baine knew since the very beginning that Garrosh did not work with Magatha and did not cheat knowingly (Garrosh even flat out whined about Magatha depriving him of a honorable victory straight to Baine).

Also, challenging someone that you know you cannot beat is not brave but stupid. Neither Saurfangs nor Baines suicide in mak'gorah would have changed anything at that point in time. Sylvanas would have just kept killing anyone that became a threat to her rule, like she tried with Thrall.

A significant Horde member challenging the Warchief, especially in case when they knew they couldn't win, wouldn't have changed anything? It wouldn't send a message to the rest of the Horde about that Warchief? Once again, your accusations about black and white worldview levied against Syegfreyd ring hollow, because here you are championing the idea that a Mak'gora either deposes the Warchief or it achieves nothing at all.

Jaina only became a threat to the Horde AFTER her city was bombed. She was one of the biggest advocates for peace on the planet. Garrosh had loudly declared his intentions for Kalimdor, so of course the Alliance fortified one of their major outposts there. Again, you just pick whatever detail you like and dismiss everything around it.

Theramore's forces outright attacked Horde outposts in the Barrens before even the invasion of Ashenvale. After that they crawled across six different zones and tried to spread even further. They didn't just fortify Theramore either. They turned it into a staging ground for Alliance reinforcements rolling into the Barrens, with a highway being constructed to make that easier. And Garrosh didn't loudly declare squat to the Alliance.

The false information was only that they were preparing an attack. The threat of training soldiers remains. Baine sanctioned the attack afterwards. No matter what you say about him, he is the authority and his word counts.

The number one Alliance apologist in the Horde engaged in Alliance apologism? Wow, what an authority you got there.

Why would it be threatening?

I dunno, but it could have something to do with its forces fighting the Horde across a quarter of Kalimdor zones (and that's counting empty hole like Ahn'Qiraj while not counting their attempted invasion of Mulgore).

Garrosh was many things, but he was not weak. Baine would not have stood a chance in single combat, even if he did trust the orc to fight fair and Sylvanas literally toyed with Saurfang, blocking a giant axe with a dagger and landing 5 hits before he had swung again. How in the world would Baine beat her? She beat the or a Lich King and an army of undead single-handedly.
I think you are just making up things now so your world view does not get disturbed by facts.

Except as seen in War Crimes in the AU where Baine let vengeance guide his actions instead of listening to Garrosh he ripped him apart with his bare hands (and took the mantle of Warchief). And Baine has never seen Sylvanas fight. Even if he had second hand information, Sylvanas hasn't shown her all in basically any fight ever since she's joined the Horde. So how could he know her capabilities? Especially capabilities she has shown only in fights that happened in the future from the perspective of time period talked about here? You're projecting the information available only onto the players just to excuse Baine. But please do say more about how it's @Syegfryed is making things up so that their world view does not get disturbed by facts.

Yep, very sure. Jaina was not an idiot though and she had met Garrosh many times before during the Northrend campaign and knew what he would do if he was in charge. She had to secure her people, but she was still trying for peace. All that ended with a bang.
The Alliance troops however are a different story, Varian was absolutely not interested in peace with the Horde at this time (and with Garrosh on the other side, that would have been impossible anyway) and Jaina could not give orders to them.

That quest text is pure assumption on whichever troll's speaking (Vol'jin I assume). From the tone it is not even clear if they can read the scrolls... but let us say it is as this person assumes. So what?
Of course a military camp has plans for all manner of contingencies, that does not mean they are preparing to act on them. The Pentagon probably has millions of contingency plans against every country of the world in some vault in case those should be attacking them.

Never mind that the scrolls are literally called "Attack Plan: Valley of Trials", "Attack Plan: Sen'jin Village" and "Attack Plan: Orgrimmar". Or the fact that the Alliance NPCs in the area are not only have their allegiance to Northwatch Expeditionary Force labeled under their names, but those names also include Northwatch (e.g. Northwatch Infantryman). With Northwatch being a part of Theramore's domain. Hell, they even renamed the are of Durotar they invaded into Northwatch Foothold. And there's this teeny-tiny detail of them (and any other Northwatch Expeditionary Unit's member in any of the zone they were present in) wearing Theramore tabards.

But of course despite trying to prove @matrix123mko you didn't know literally any of these facts, which is why you tried to latch onto just the quote from the Troll itself, while still grasping at straws.

Since we do not have any proof we can speculate away without getting anywhere, but the plans could have been there for a swift reaction in case of a Horde attack.
It's not like Varian can just e-mail them when that contingency happens. Magical means of transport sometimes exist and then don't exist so we cannot count on them. Frankly, a direct attack on Orgrimmar from Theramore is ridiculous, so I am inclinded to think these are really just plans "in case of emergency break glass" or they are deliberate misinformation that they wanted the Horde to get.

Given the fact that their very presence in the area was a result of an Alliance invasion of Horde land, which was a followup to Northwatch's own forces invading the Barrens (and also capturing an area there), which in turn reignited the war started by the Alliance, sure thing. Factions were already at all out war, but the topic of Horde attack and Alliance merely responding to it and making precautions for that opportunity was totally still on the table at that point.

[Syegfryed]

I'm not "deciding" anything. I'm just using the correct definitions of the words and terms you're using. If you're using them incorrectly, whether intentionally or accidentally, that's on you. Not me.

you "think" they are the correct definitions, you "think" that i use then incorrectly, you "think" you know better than me what i was trying to say, what a joke

No. You should "just stop". Because you switched over to Teldrassil with no warning whatsoever,

its where the genocide of innocents have happened, there is no switch, im talking about the 2 worse points baine could have stand up against Sylvanas that are worse than Jaina brother incident, if you were not so busy nitpicking you may have noticed that

is your insistence that Baine is somehow a coward.

Because he is indeed, a coward, acts of cowardice by fear means you are a coward, with all the letters

Ahh. War Crimes. As far as I recall, we only have a single glimpse of that event, completely unaware of everything else around it that could have caused the different outcome. But, no. You just go ahead and assume that the Baine and Garrosh in that timeline are exactly, 100% alike, no distinction whatsoever to our timeline's Baine and Garrosh.

You are the one assuming different, nothing implies that, the only difference showed to us is how in one timeline Baine was not a coward.

thats the distinction, the alterante Baine is not a coward, the Baine we have is

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess "spineless coward" must have a meaning different than its real definition to you, then?

if you are going by the "real definition" he should not even walk because he would not have a spine to stand, so you are saying a lot of shit with "real meaning definition" trying to construct and build an entire deep history of a simple swearing

In other words... it was used for military operations.

no, it was just a village of hunters and civilians in their own lands that the alliance invaded, who happen to have warriors and hunters npc trainers, that you somehow think the only reason is to train soldiers to attack the alliance