Sylvanas Is Evil, Just Admit It

[Powerogue]

I'll hold you on to that.

Remember this does not include:

-last minute Vader face heel turn where she takes out a Bigger Bad
-ironic punishment of being stuck as the new Jailer/other major afterlife role and being forced to fulfill a pseudo-good end
-being resurrected out of undeath magically turning her good again

All of which would be disappointing to me, but far more likely.

I still think the #1 most likely scenario is her dying in Shadowlands by our hands. They have committed for an entire expansion to make her a villain we the player hate on a personal level more than any other villain in WoW history.

That's WoW writing 101: Build up a villain that a character we hopefully sympathize with hates, then have them play some role in their ultimate defeat. (Velen + KJ, Illidan + Sargeras, Thrall + Garrosh, The Aspects + Deathwing, Tirion + Lich King, Akama + Illidan.)

This time, it's The Player + Sylvanas.

[DemonHunter18]

It's not about being called out and exposed. It's pretty much the issue is.

Sylvanas in books internal thoughts "I actually do care about forsaken, blood elves, horde, etc."

Sylvanas in Siege of Org 2.0 "you're all nothing."

They are complete contradictions of each other. The only way they mix is if she somehow has knowledge that she's in a fictional universe and fucking with the real world readers. Or she doesn't think we're all nothing. It's A or B they both can't exist.

they should either stick with the books or game lore.

those two don't mix well... at all.

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Remember this does not include:

-last minute Vader face heel turn where she takes out a Bigger Bad
-ironic punishment of being stuck as the new Jailer/other major afterlife role and being forced to fulfill a pseudo-good end
-being resurrected out of undeath magically turning her good again

All of which would be disappointing to me, but far more likely.

I still think the #1 most likely scenario is her dying in Shadowlands by our hands. They have committed for an entire expansion to make her a villain we the player hate on a personal level more than any other villain in WoW history.

That's WoW writing 101: Build up a villain that a character we hopefully sympathize with hates, then have them play some role in their ultimate defeat. (Velen + KJ, Illidan + Sargeras, Thrall + Garrosh, The Aspects + Deathwing, Tirion + Lich King, Akama + Illidan.)

This time, it's The Player + Sylvanas.

hopefully one day, player will be the end boss.

[Kuze]

I mean, she has damned countless people, including the civilians of Teldrassil (possibly children as well) as well as many Alliance and Horde soldiers (which include her own people aka the Forsaken), to a torturous afterlife. Death is one thing, it happens in war, but this.....this is beyond justifiable. There is no hidden plan, no greater good. She is evil, though I wish the writers hadn't written her this way. There was a time when her ruthlessness was used for the good of her people.

Evil is a point of view

[Powerogue]

Sylvanas became evil because the story writers didn't pay attention to what came before in her story.

This expansion has been almost nothing but callbacks, so that's just absurd.

[Doffen]

Because back then she was just Queen of the Forsaken and not Warchief of the Horde.

She was warchief in Legion, pretty much on the sideline then too. It was blurry what she was up to then as well. More Sylvanas like.

But, I guess it was just a matter of time before they blew her up as a main figure. I mean, the Horde is losing the big ones faster than we get expansions. Surely they could have taken another approach. But who knows, maybe she return as the leader of the new free world...

[OrcsRLame]

It's not about being called out and exposed. It's pretty much the issue is.

Sylvanas in books internal thoughts "I actually do care about forsaken, blood elves, horde, etc."

Sylvanas in Siege of Org 2.0 "you're all nothing."

They are complete contradictions of each other. The only way they mix is if she somehow has knowledge that she's in a fictional universe and fucking with the real world readers. Or she doesn't think we're all nothing. It's A or B they both can't exist.

Sylvanas has always had a sort of schizophrenic personality. In WC3:TFT in the very first mission where you play as her she starts off the mission with a monologue about how being turned into an undead and forced to serve someone is abominable and horrifying and no one should be forced into that. When you see your first creep camp in that very same mission she's all like, Eww, gross. Kill those mongrels and raise them as undead. They will serve as good fodder for our armies.

She has always been a mustache twirling villain and she has always engaged in double think.

[Doctor Amadeus]

She isn't evil, she serves evil, she ultimately believes her ends justify the means.

[cparle87]

Grommash and Illidan have been absolved, so I wouldn't count Sylvannas out just yet.
And if Main Universe Sylvannas is bad, there's always the possibility for an AU Sylvannas such as the one we see in End Time.

Was Grommash ever a villain, though? He was fooled by an expert who knew exactly what buttons to press. And unlike Blackhand he was not directly responsible for any war crimes that I know of, like the sacking of Shattrath's population. And even when pushed to the wall he refused to drink the blood. Seems more anti-villain antagonist to me.

[Wylyth1992]

You should have no respect for people who are evil.

I have respect for the players. It's a game, if you are implying that siding with an evil person in game makes you evil in real life, you are wrong.

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Alliance fanboys and people that enjoy primitive black/white writing circlejerking again, amazing.

She is ruthless, cold, calculated (some Blizzard writing fails aside), and goal-oriented. She doesn't do the "lets all hug and be friends" crap, she sees alliance for what it is - a bunch of duplicitous, self-righteous assholes, high on their fumes - and acts accordingly. In my opinion, that is a good leader. If you were to view her from a point of a first-grader - yes, she is evil. Doesn't mean she's wrong though.

Did you not read my post? The example I gave for her being irredeemably evil was her causing the dead to be sent to a horrible, undeserving hell. It had nothing to do with the Alliance.

[Raisei]

Cause a bunch of spineless trash, led by the only cow in the world that gives soy milk - Baine, and a senile delusional old orc, that talk about honor all the time, yet is absolutely cool letting his comrades die for the sake of that very honor - Saurfang - decided to betray her. If they'd just stick to the plan we'd all be happy - Horde with all the resources they need and alliance 6 feet under. Can't think of a happier ending.

Aaaah you are one of the fanatics, why not say so? Would saved me the typing. Fact is, your happier ending would have included yours and all the Horde's death. But I know you won't accept this simple truth no matter who tells you, be it the writers, Sylvanas herself or whoever. Have fun killing your goddess in Shadowlands.

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I'm pro-Sylvanas because the Alliance has to die. Always will be. The Saurfang lovie dovie is disgusting.

Pro-Sylvanas means EVERYONE will die. How is this not understandable for the Sylvanas fanbois? I just don't get it.

[Kalontas]

Everyone knows she's evil. You're not going to change anyone's minds with a thread like this, nor will they admit she's evil.

[Raisei]

People keep saying that but we have yet to see anything like a Geneva Accord to know what is outlawed in Azeroth during war..........I'd wage there isn't anything outlawed.

The book "Warcrimes" would like a word. It very clearly establishes a precedent of a Warchief being condemned for their criminal actions during war.

[Ardenaso]

I mean, there are also those who side with Sylvanas BECAUSE she is evil and aren't in denial about it. I have more respect for those people than the others who side with her.

I respect the unironic evil Sylvanas fanboys, at least they are true to themselves and they have self awareness

However I loathe the sociopathic gaslighting "muh taurajo genn started it" Sylvanas fanboys

[RobertMugabe]

Well duh?

I mean Blizz is pretty clear with their lore, except for that "morally grey" moment

[Varodoc]

Evil is completely subjective.

Nope. The moment you commit genocide, you're evil. Sorry.

[Eazy]

Nope. The moment you commit genocide, you're evil. Sorry.

Was Arthas evil for trying to save his father's kingdom?

[matrix123mko]

Soul eaters and mind erasers seems evil to me.

There are also people who torture souls to later give them to mind erasers.

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I mean, she has damned countless people, including the civilians of Teldrassil (possibly children as well) as well as many Alliance and Horde soldiers (which include her own people aka the Forsaken), to a torturous afterlife. Death is one thing, it happens in war, but this.....this is beyond justifiable. There is no hidden plan, no greater good. She is evil, though I wish the writers hadn't written her this way. There was a time when her ruthlessness was used for the good of her people.

I think she is good for virtue of killing night elves alone.

[Varodoc]

Was Arthas evil for trying to save his father's kingdom?

No, because Arthas had good intentions in the first place, which makes the Culling morally grey. Sylvanas' only goal was to grow more powerful by killing a lot of people. Pay attention to the story.

[Lord Pebbleton]

People keep saying that but we have yet to see anything like a Geneva Accord to know what is outlawed in Azeroth during war..........I'd wage there isn't anything outlawed.

Until stated otherwise in-game, I will use my perception to judge if something is a mild annoyance or a premeditated slaughter.
Sylvanas has used the blight to completely kill all life in various zones and sub-areas. The scourge did a similar thing with Lordaeron. There's virtually no difference apart from Sylvanas being a faction leader (?), but no one dreamed of taking the scourge to court lol.

[vipers]

Someone who wants to kill everyone is not really a good