I can't be the only one predicting a permanent level 60 cap

[huth]

why not add 10 levels of paragon levels per expansion?

keep physical level cap at 60 , and add paragon talent tree/abilities/ requirements etc etc each expansion add 10 paragon levels.


it's a successful system in diablo

Because that's the same thing with a different name.

[mortephobia]

but it adds a "new" mechanic they can experiment with, rather than changing and squishing items every so and so and damage numbers creeping to the millions every so and so....

maybe that trinket or that legendary you worked your butt off last expansion is still viable at the "physical" level cap.

and all damage/ability/buffs/dots/hots don't get inflated every so and so..

[SinR]

I see that happening.

once 10.0 prepatch comes out, Shadowlands content goes to 50, 10.0 content goes to 60. repeating for a while.

Few item level squishes here and there, some more stat squishing...

[AlmightyGerkin]

Now: 120
SL: 60
Next expansion: 60 rare elite
Next one: 60 Elite
After: 70

[vertigo12]

I see that happening.

once 10.0 prepatch comes out, Shadowlands content goes to 50, 10.0 content goes to 60. repeating for a while.

Few item level squishes here and there, some more stat squishing...

My goodness... What kind of a game design is this if they'll repeatedly doing it every expac.

So will they ship this as one of their NEW PERMANENT FEATURE!?
Better be sure they'll tie this up with a reasonable narrative and excuse.

[Omedon]

My goodness... What kind of a game design is this if they'll repeatedly doing it every expac.

See here's the thing though, and I think a lot of people are overlooking this point.

This first time, going from 120 to 50, I'll give you, that's jarring.

But 60 to 50 every two years? Honestly, that's peanuts. Especially if the general power levels from 1-49 in chromie time are standardized and those who "were present for" the level 60 game have *some* leg up when the climb from 50 to 60 begins again.

Someone mentioned diablo-esque seasons, and really, the concept isn't that alien from WoW. We have a soft gear reset every 6 months or so with every X.Y patch, and a harder reset every two years or so with each new expansion. If that 2-year reset is accompanied by going from 60-50... that's honestly a small sacrifice to make for this formulaic perpetuity that will allow the game to exist and remain approachable going forward.

As I said, "I'm higher level than you" hasn't been intended as a "lording over" point in WoW... basically ever. The leveling game exists as a tutorial and story catch up for new players (especially with the new player's mandatory leveling path being the immediately preceding chapter), to usher one to the level cap where the focus of the development lies. Level has never been meant to be something "to have that others don't," the level cap is a guarantee. Everyone gets it relatively quickly. Having it be an approachable and subsequently alt-friendly number is an absolute win!

[rrayy]

See here's the thing though, and I think a lot of people are overlooking this point.

This first time, going from 120 to 50, I'll give you, that's jarring.

But 60 to 50 every two years? Honestly, that's peanuts. Especially if the general power levels from 1-49 in chromie time are standardized and those who "were present for" the level 60 game have *some* leg up when the climb from 50 to 60 begins again.

Someone mentioned diablo-esque seasons, and really, the concept isn't that alien from WoW. We have a soft gear reset every 6 months or so with every X.Y patch, and a harder reset every two years or so with each new expansion. If that 2-year reset is accompanied by going from 60-50... that's honestly a small sacrifice to make for this formulaic perpetuity that will allow the game to exist and remain approachable going forward.

As I said, "I'm higher level than you" hasn't been intended as a "lording over" point in WoW... basically ever. The leveling game exists as a tutorial and story catch up for new players (especially with the new player's mandatory leveling path being the immediately preceding chapter), to usher one to the level cap where the focus of the development lies. Level has never been meant to be something "to have that others don't," the level cap is a guarantee. Everyone gets it relatively quickly. Having it be an approachable and subsequently alt-friendly number is an absolute win!

Noene of this is a win and congrats on kiling the game. You have renedered leveling compeltely pointless and progression si cimpletely pointless since you will start all over again every expansion. Leveling wasn't a tutorial either. It was progression. This also isn't about having something that others don't. It never has been. This is about a sense of progression. You eliminate that in one fell swoop. But you don't care because the game is catered to you. The game has been approachable for it's entire 15 year run with out any of your proposal.

Peopl eneed to stop being so afraid of big numbers. None of this is needed and is bad for the game.

[Tziva]

I don't think it will be a permanent cap as in "once you hit 60, you're done leveling forever" but I think it's pretty obvious that there are going to be level squishes (or some similar type system) like this one going forward. I don't know that they will be every expansion or that they will pick 60 as that magical final cap number, but Blizzard has been fairly transparent about their goals with this, and it follows that this probably isn't a one time deal.

[Omedon]

I was going to start another thread about this but I figure I have a relatively recent one right here and this sub-topic is related. At the very least I'd need to link this topic to a new topic for it to make sense, so I'm just going to respond here.

Someone mentioned that a side effect of the scenario I posited in the OP here would be that level 120 alts that didn't get used in an expansion would stay level 50 until you chose to "dust them off" for this expansion, or the next, or the next.

Would that really be so bad? I kinda like that scenario. Why should the alt that "didn't resonate" with 9.0 have an extra 10-20 levels to catch up with another expansion years later "makes more sense" for them to get involved with? If the 33 alts I have at 120 now stayed 50 until I decided to use them in another expansion or two... that actually makes me more inclined to have more alts on the bench of varied concepts that might relate better to the themes of another story, instead of dusting them off "just cuz" every expansion so they can "keep up."

I don't see a problem here.

[vertigo12]

Well, I have a feeling they might just do something like that. But I have to imagine that at some point, the scaling and squishing down will get a little difficult to make work?

Plus it would mean that old content will technically never be outleveled anymore. You would be able to get at most 10 levels above BfA content, 0 over Shadowlands, 0 over any future expansion.

The model they intend on using with character leveling brings too much complication. They're trying to reinvent wheels when a wheel should fundamentally be circular.

- - - Updated - - -

We'd outscale old content with both item level and probably an aura that would come into effect with the boosted loot aura for older content.

OP, no. I've thought the same thing. Constant downscaling each expansion now would make sense given how they are redoing the leveling content and don't want people to feel daunted leveling anymore.

Do you mind explaining me and to others how constantly downscaling every expac with a nerfbat would be the best solution for the daunting feeling which players may feel upon replaying the game?

- - - Updated - - -

Because that's the same thing with a different name.

And Diablo is Diablo not WoW. Both have a uniquely different game genre and theme though they share the same Blizzard universe.

[Azevin]

If the "AP" borrowed power systems (artifact / azerite / anima[?] powers) replaced the character experience bar, this would actually be a good idea. Basically, at 9.0, we're still all converted to level 50, but instead of leveling to 60, we'd grind out anima power. At the end of the expansion, we leave the Shadowlands, thus losing all the anima power we collected. Shadowlands gets converted to a 10-50 leveling experience and we're ready for a new borrowed power grind to take its place. The entire leveling experience stays pretty much the same.

[Kalontas]

Part of this revamp was to fit the story as a cohesive narrative. They're not going to make a new 1-10 zone every expansion. It's going to stay Exile's Reach -> BfA -> Shadowlands for new players. And then they go on to the next one for 60-70, etc.

Where the fel did 15 pages come from?

[Protar95]

Part of this revamp was to fit the story as a cohesive narrative. They're not going to make a new 1-10 zone every expansion. It's going to stay Exile's Reach -> BfA -> Shadowlands for new players. And then they go on to the next one for 60-70, etc.

Where the fel did 15 pages come from?

The point of the level revamp was to funnel new players through the most modern content, to let players to get to the level cap with fewer continents and to stop players from outleveling continents after the first couple of zones. I think it's likely they'll edit the levelling flow each expansion, moving expansions into the alternate levelling paths as they get older. 10.0 will probably relegate BFA to an optional choice like the older expansions.

[Omedon]

The point of the level revamp was to funnel new players through the most modern content, to let players to get to the level cap with fewer continents and to stop players from outleveling continents after the first couple of zones. I think it's likely they'll edit the levelling flow each expansion, moving expansions into the alternate levelling paths as they get older. 10.0 will probably relegate BFA to an optional choice like the older expansions.

Yes, with shadowlands becoming the new mandatory 10-50 game for new players, and an option for veterans' alts. Then all level 60's get reset to level 50 (where any previously untouched 120 alts sat for all of shadowlands, and would potentially continue to sit until they get used for an expansion) at 10.0, when we start the climb to 60 again. That's basically what I posited in the OP.

Where the fel did 15 pages come from?

From people disagreeing, chiming in with similar ideas, or having this whole thing dawn on them for the first time. As I said, I'm surprised this hasn't been a bigger talking point than it's been. Me, I'm fine with it. 15 pages comes from that not being a universal opinion. The more I think on it, the more I think "level 61" may never exist again as of 9.0.

[huth]

And Diablo is Diablo not WoW. Both have a uniquely different game genre and theme though they share the same Blizzard universe.

Which has very little to do with Paragon levels really just being disguised levels. At that point, it may as well just say 70 instead of 60+10.

[Zyrinx]

I was going to start another thread about this but I figure I have a relatively recent one right here and this sub-topic is related. At the very least I'd need to link this topic to a new topic for it to make sense, so I'm just going to respond here.

Someone mentioned that a side effect of the scenario I posited in the OP here would be that level 120 alts that didn't get used in an expansion would stay level 50 until you chose to "dust them off" for this expansion, or the next, or the next.

Would that really be so bad? I kinda like that scenario. Why should the alt that "didn't resonate" with 9.0 have an extra 10-20 levels to catch up with another expansion years later "makes more sense" for them to get involved with? If the 33 alts I have at 120 now stayed 50 until I decided to use them in another expansion or two... that actually makes me more inclined to have more alts on the bench of varied concepts that might relate better to the themes of another story, instead of dusting them off "just cuz" every expansion so they can "keep up."

I don't see a problem here.

I actually love this.

[huth]

If the "AP" borrowed power systems (artifact / azerite / anima[?] powers) replaced the character experience bar, this would actually be a good idea. Basically, at 9.0, we're still all converted to level 50, but instead of leveling to 60, we'd grind out anima power. At the end of the expansion, we leave the Shadowlands, thus losing all the anima power we collected. Shadowlands gets converted to a 10-50 leveling experience and we're ready for a new borrowed power grind to take its place. The entire leveling experience stays pretty much the same.

Anima Powers are Torghast exclusive and per run, not something you progress through over the expansion.

[sephrinx]

I thought they pretty much already said that 60 will be the new cap?

[Kalontas]

From people disagreeing, chiming in with similar ideas, or having this whole thing dawn on them for the first time. As I said, I'm surprised this hasn't been a bigger talking point than it's been. Me, I'm fine with it. 15 pages comes from that not being a universal opinion. The more I think on it, the more I think "level 61" may never exist again as of 9.0.

I mean when I was posting, it wasn't showing any pages, so I thought I was on first page. Then I posted and I'm suddenly on page 15. I wouldn't have bothered if I knew it'd get lost in the sea of people saying the same things already.

[Shelly]

Do you mind explaining me and to others how constantly downscaling every expac with a nerfbat would be the best solution for the daunting feeling which players may feel upon replaying the game?

Holy necro-quote batman!

But sure.

Right now people have to play 120 levels of World of Warcraft to reach the end-game, which many people consider to be the "true" game. For someone just picking up the game or returning from a long 5+ year hiatus you start wondering things like "do I need to buy each expansion?" "Will I understand the story?" "How long will it take me to reach level cap with so many levels?"

The truth is far more complicated given that WoW isn't a single game, rather it's a series of multiple games all played through a single platform. There are huge differences between M+ and raiding, between PvP and PvE, between systems built for each expansion, pet battles, heirlooms, past raids, current raids and the list goes on and really just gets distilled down into one single big number that is 120.

So when someone is either new or returning seeing that number is just daunting.

Meanwhile the game itself is now being built in a modular fashion. You could see it with the class designs in Legion, what was brought into BfA and the overall lack of changes in Shadowlands. All of which are exemplified in one single sentence "rented powers." For the most part almost all characters are playing now as they played in Legion and will be played in Shadowlands. There will be some streamlining and tuning that occurs with the unpruning and people just upset at rows with just a single viable talent - hammer of wrath, wake of ashes, phoenix flames to maybe spread ignite, etc. For the most part though we are as we are with the smoothest specs facing the fewest changes that will result in abilities staying in spellbooks and off the hot-bars.

So if they can just keep WoW in a semi-maintenance mode where they just keep reverting us back to level 50 power in the pre-patch for the next expansion then it'll let them maintain having a leveling game for the new content, you'll be able to level to 50 in a single expansion of old content which is far less daunting to a new player, the rented-powers-system will feel less like a burden and more the quirk of the expansion you're leveling in which helps maintain that each expansion is literally a separate game from current content, it also lets Blizz set power levels for the current content expansion and following ones better since they'll always know the curve.

Really the idea makes a lot of sense, at least to me, though I do rather loathe the whole "rented power" system they've been on since I'd say WoD. I prefer to feel like I'm carrying part of the power from my prior adventures forward with me, but can understand the Blizzard stance that it's a fast road to a bloated hotbar with everything out of balance. If you just look at Classic you can see that the gameplay engine was never really built around so many abilities like we had at the end of MoP.