A decent MMO plagued by some serious problems that make it unplayable in the long run

[Cthulhu 2020]

So what content is there to do at endgame, exactly, and how is it more than what a game like WoW offers? From what I've heard FFXIV PvP is below average and you tend to only do the story-content once (since you only need one character to do everything).

People love to claim that WoW is raid or die, yet the raiders make up only a minority of the WoW playerbase. The truth of the matter is that WoW offers plenty of content, especially for casual players, and it's the raiders who don't feel like there's enough content to do.

Uhhhh roleplay?

But perhaps you could answer the question for us, since you seem to have posed it and then presented a statement saying there's more to do in WoW than just raiding. I played WoW for 12 years, and outside of raiding all I had to do was collect pets, collect mounts, rep farm, level alts and make money. All of those things and much more are in FFXIV as far as doing things that can advance my character in ways that isn't just getting better gear.


As far as PvP, I like it about as much as I do WoW's. It's MMO PvP, something that will always be highly flawed, unbalanced (or too balanced) and a generally unlikeable POS. I think the difference between WoW's PvP community and FF's is that there are people with the specific mindset to actually enjoy PvP in WoW. The mentality of people in FF is farther away from those who enjoy PvP, considering it's largely comprised of east asians, and westerners who are into JRPGs - in addition to some WoWfugees. People who generally try to avoid conflict far more than the average person, which means that PvP isn't on their radar. It's a big reason why people often cite the FF community as being far more welcoming, inviting and friendly. And I agree with them, having extensive experience in both games. Yes, FF has ragers, toxic players, etc. But they are by and large FAR less prevalent in FF.

Segueing off of that, I will say that harassers and stalkers have been a big issue in WoW, and when I had to report people for it to the GMs, they didn't take it seriously. After Burning Crusade, it felt like Blizzard didn't ban anyone for anything except botting. Meanwhile in FF, if you have stalkers or harassers, they have a zero tolerance policy towards that and will give the players a 3-10 day vacation for that kind of behavior. That or if they have multiple offenses, will just straight up permaban them.

[Hyral]

So what content is there to do at endgame, exactly, and how is it more than what a game like WoW offers?

Specifically end game as in level capping your job? I guess the usual raids. And it is not, that's literally my point. I haven't said there's more PvE end game content to do than WoW but there's a larger variety of type of content to do besides just killing things and instances. So it appeals to people who don't care about that type of content which is, until right now, all that WoW offers outside a couple of things in DMF one week every month.

From what I've heard FFXIV PvP is below average and you tend to only do the story-content once (since you only need one character to do everything).

PvP isn't below average, it's below the absolute minimum and unplayable. The main problem with FFXIV is the horrendous server ticks that add half a second of lag to almost everything everyone does, it is impossible to take PvP serious at all under those circumstances. Every other problem with PvP takes a backseat to the main issue that it is literally unplayable.

Story content you do only once for the most part. You can NG+ stuff but without any of the rewards no one bothers. FFXIV has permanent timewalking though so whenever you queue for random dungeons you get to do any content from across all expansions, and you often get some story bosses, but I don't think that's what you are asking there.

People love to claim that WoW is raid or die, yet the raiders make up only a minority of the WoW playerbase. The truth of the matter is that WoW offers plenty of content, especially for casual players, and it's the raiders who don't feel like there's enough content to do.

WoW is designed as a raid or die game. That's the focus for the game and the rest of the game is fitted for that purpose. All the grinds, all the AP, all the essences, the corruptions, even PvP balance, it all bows down to the almighty raiding scene and is twisted and folded until it fits that purpose. That is why WoW is called a raid or die game.

Most of the casual content in WoW is born from that. Mog hunting, pet hunting, achievement hunting, toys, etc. The vast majority of that casual content is, as I mentioned before, going to go kill things or grinding old instances, it is born from the repurposed remnants of old content that no longer the serves the almighty raid scene. The moment they tried to expand on the variety of content WoW offers, with Pet Battles, which are brilliant and I love them, people bitched and whined because it didn't serve the almighty raid scene, and since then the devs haven't bother trying something new again probably because of that reception (though thank god they havent completely abandoned pet battles, and a new minigame might be coming in SL).

I've listed before the variety of content FFXIV offers besides just killing things and you are welcome to follow the thread of replies from the post you are replying to to see it, but I'm done going over it constantly. There's more variety of things to do in FF than in WoW. If someone finds it to be more content or not is very subjective. For people who don't care about mini games and only care about end game character progression though PvE, be it casual or hardcore, FF has very little for them. For someone like me who only cares to clear a raid once and have no interest in grinding to make my numbers higher WoW has very little to offer after a tier is done. Thankfully FF is different enough that I can enjoy both for their own strengths.

[Hyral]

It's weird to me when people will tell you that WoW has nothing but raiding...and then rattle off a list of non-raid stuff to do, but claim it doesn't count or something.

You go into a raid to do those things. You explain that one.

[Celvira]

I'm subbed to both WoW and XIV right now, but (in my opinion) XIV is leagues better than WoW is right now. WoW has become a chore and a slog to keep up with, requiring constant daily maintenance to keep all your characters geared, raid-ready, and generally able to compete in any end-game content. In contrast to XIV, once you get a piece of gear, that gear will never change or demand you continuously grind to improve. In Ion's own words, XIV has the "let loot be loot" system going for it.

Another huge plus is that 14 has a failsafe regarding loot, rewarding players who complete content with an item they can trade to get the gear they want, not the ones the RNG gods have given. And these features are all available the very day the raid tier hits. Its an amazing system that keeps both hardcore and casual players geared on a similar scale, reducing the power-gaps between them and allowing to devs to make better, more balanced adjustments on classes.

Honestly, for this reason alone, XIV has been a godsend. I just don't enjoy the constant "Stress" of staying relevant in WoW, as it has become a source of unneeded frustration and general annoyance.

WIth that said, WoW is 10x better than XIV is with its leveling. XIV's world is pretty, but often empty. XIV definitely is designed around party content a bit too much for its own good.

[Hyral]

"Pet battles don't count because there are pets that drop in raids!"

"Mog hunting doesn't count - even though that's like 95% of the XIV endgame - because some mogs drop in raids!"

This is the picture of bias, honestly.

"rattle off a list"

one thing

And I say one because I did make an exception for pet battles, you'd know if you bothered to read. Definitely the picture of bias.

[Femininity]

It's a little hypocritical to not want to be held accountable for DPS performance, but you want to criticize them if they stand in fire or fail an interrupt. Performance is performance, whether it's DPS, interrupts, kiting, CC, etc. You either are for the concept of holding people accountable (like an adult, not a petulant child), or you're on board with FF14's methodology of you can't make any comments on their play without fear of repucussions.

I'm vocal in instanced groups if anyone is noticeably causing issues. I've kicked countless players from Party Finder groups for donkey performance, though typically not on the first offense, and not without a healthy (read: generous) amount of respectful coaching. I don't belabor the point typically; if someone's not getting it, they're not getting it. I've hurt plenty of feelings, been dragged for being a 'WoW elitist,' and had more than a few 'reported' claims leveled against me. Never had any repercussions.

So what content is there to do at endgame, exactly, and how is it more than what a game like WoW offers?.

While not endgame-specific, there's plenty of non-raiding content to supplement your raiding experience, just as there is in WoW.

Deep Dungeon is pretty neat. Procedurally generated dungeon with increasing difficulty and an independent leveling system. Fewer than 0.2% of the playerbase has completed the highest (or lowest) level solo. I did Mage Tower challenges on most of the specs in WoW during Legion, and nothing came remotely close in difficulty to Heaven on High and Palace of the Dead solo. You can argue that they're class-gated, particularly Palace of the Dead, but they're designed to cater to the most dedicated solo players.

There's also The Hunt, which is a high-level mob train people like to run, though it's not really my thing.

Professions, while not everyone's cup of tea, have a surprising amount of depth to them, have their own 'endgame,' and can easily absorb all of your non-combat time if you're into it. There are exclusive rewards tied to your profession's contribution to certain rebuilding efforts.

I generally enjoy my non-raiding time in FFXIV far more than I did in WoW. For most of the game's life, I enjoyed WoW raiding far more than FFXIV raiding. This is no longer the case.

[Redzonetode]

" that make it unplayable in the long run"

Then how have I been playing it for years? Lmao

[Indigenously Abled]

" that make it unplayable in the long run"

Then how have I been playing it for years? Lmao

There's an implied 'for me.' at the end of that title.

[Delever]

I'm subbed to both WoW and XIV right now, but (in my opinion) XIV is leagues better than WoW is right now. WoW has become a chore and a slog to keep up with, requiring constant daily maintenance to keep all your characters geared, raid-ready, and generally able to compete in any end-game content. In contrast to XIV, once you get a piece of gear, that gear will never change or demand you continuously grind to improve. In Ion's own words, XIV has the "let loot be loot" system going for it.

Another huge plus is that 14 has a failsafe regarding loot, rewarding players who complete content with an item they can trade to get the gear they want, not the ones the RNG gods have given. And these features are all available the very day the raid tier hits. Its an amazing system that keeps both hardcore and casual players geared on a similar scale, reducing the power-gaps between them and allowing to devs to make better, more balanced adjustments on classes.

Honestly, for this reason alone, XIV has been a godsend. I just don't enjoy the constant "Stress" of staying relevant in WoW, as it has become a source of unneeded frustration and general annoyance.

WIth that said, WoW is 10x better than XIV is with its leveling. XIV's world is pretty, but often empty. XIV definitely is designed around party content a bit too much for its own good.

That is actually what I like about XIV gearing as well and I preffer the "let loot be loot" mentality of aiming for a bis. I do however find myself playing more WoW (while I am a raider in XIV atm and not WoW), because of the sheer amount of more content to do in order to get geared. XIV I log in once, do my expert, log out until reclears.
WoW has so many more ways of earning gear. M+ is great fun and I run it all the time (wish xiv could have it). I do my heroic warfront on alts. I grind some essences when I feel like it. I earn gear through pvp as well when I m bored of pve. Visions give gear. Raids give gear. Invasions give gear. Theres just so much progression relevant content. And dont get me wrong if you wanna stay 100% competitive you gotta do all of them every day and that kinda sucks with the rng thats tied to gear. But I ve been able to steadily increase my r.io playing mostly solo and doing M+ where I m sitting at 560 right now, slowly raising my ilvl and getting better corruptions. Once shadowlands drops and the random RNG bullshit is out of the window with gear affixes (they can keep minor stuff like leech and speed idgaf these are small and fun) this will be even better.
XIV needs to step up its game in pve. Raiding 4 bosses and 2 piss easy ex trials for 7 months is not exactly fun progression content.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

So what content is there to do at endgame, exactly, and how is it more than what a game like WoW offers? From what I've heard FFXIV PvP is below average and you tend to only do the story-content once (since you only need one character to do everything).

People love to claim that WoW is raid or die, yet the raiders make up only a minority of the WoW playerbase. The truth of the matter is that WoW offers plenty of content, especially for casual players, and it's the raiders who don't feel like there's enough content to do.

I've made a pretty comprehensive WoW vs FFXIV comparison here.

Personally, if you don't like playing through JRPGs for their story, you're just not going to find as much fun in FFXIV as you would in WoW. Outside of the story, FFXIV has little "gamey" content. I guess there's content... if you like relic grinds.

When it comes to the "gamey" content, WoW does everything better. Or, it used to. Better reputations and waaay more of them, better dailies and waaay more than them, more ways to reshape your character through transmog and waaaay more transmogs to farm for, far more content, amazing raid presentation, etc.

Personally, I switched from WoW to FFXIV because 1. I did all of the content in WoW I was interested in (after MoP the quality of their "gamey" content dropped hard, but I digress), and 2. I didn't have as much time to keep playing WoW anymore. FFXIV doesn't have the sheer amount of content WoW has, but it has high quality story content. Outside of that, logging in once a week to raid (which is just queuing onto on a boss platform, not a fully fleshed out instance like in WoW) with my FC for a few hours is enough for me. Also like doing stuff in the Gold Saucer (FFXIV's minigame casino), like racing and triple triad and jumping puzzles and mahjong.

[Wrecktangle]

And dont get me wrong if you wanna stay 100% competitive you gotta do all of them every day and that kinda sucks with the rng thats tied to gear.

I always hear this stated, but my experience directly refutes it, albeit it's anecdotal. I'm as close to a raidlogger as one can be. I do one raid a week, and one M+ run a week for my cache when I'm subbed.

I consistently post 90%+ logs in Mythic content that I do occasionally despite only being a Heroic raider (usually first 3-5 bosses). My heroic logs are typically 95-99%. I have several 100% if you filter by ilvl, due to being on average 3-6 lower ilvl than my colleagues. Granted I am an ex top 20 raider from way back, but you definitely do not need to burn yourself out to get good logs or play in a decent M+ guild.

Because the nature of the bloat is very different.

Wreck did some great writeups regarding the nature of FFXIV's buttons and why they're just not very interesting or fulfilling. It's somewhere on this forum!

I wonder which one. I did a quick search and didn't find much except my one comparison between WoW and FF14 depth/synergy.

I'm vocal in instanced groups if anyone is noticeably causing issues. I've kicked countless players from Party Finder groups for donkey performance, though typically not on the first offense, and not without a healthy (read: generous) amount of respectful coaching. I don't belabor the point typically; if someone's not getting it, they're not getting it. I've hurt plenty of feelings, been dragged for being a 'WoW elitist,' and had more than a few 'reported' claims leveled against me. Never had any repercussions.

To be fair the post wasn't directed at you. We have similar experiences. When I say fear of repercussions I really meant "fear" of repercussions. If you catch my drift.

[Femininity]

To be fair the post wasn't directed at you. We have similar experiences. When I say fear of repercussions I really meant "fear" of repercussions. If you catch my drift.

I didn't think it was. Figured I'd chime in and echo your sentiment. I do agree with this...

It's a little hypocritical to not want to be held accountable for DPS performance, but you want to criticize them if they stand in fire or fail an interrupt. Performance is performance, whether it's DPS, interrupts, kiting,

...completely.

[Lazuli]

I've made a pretty comprehensive WoW vs FFXIV comparison here.

Personally, if you don't like playing through JRPGs for their story, you're just not going to find as much fun in FFXIV as you would in WoW. Outside of the story, FFXIV has little "gamey" content. I guess there's content... if you like relic grinds.

When it comes to the "gamey" content, WoW does everything better. Or, it used to. Better reputations and waaay more of them, better dailies and waaay more than them, more ways to reshape your character through transmog and waaaay more transmogs to farm for, far more content, amazing raid presentation, etc.

Personally, I switched from WoW to FFXIV because 1. I did all of the content in WoW I was interested in (after MoP the quality of their "gamey" content dropped hard, but I digress), and 2. I didn't have as much time to keep playing WoW anymore. FFXIV doesn't have the sheer amount of content WoW has, but it has high quality story content. Outside of that, logging in once a week to raid (which is just queuing onto on a boss platform, not a fully fleshed out instance like in WoW) with my FC for a few hours is enough for me. Also like doing stuff in the Gold Saucer (FFXIV's minigame casino), like racing and triple triad and jumping puzzles and mahjong.

For me 14 has more content than WoW. All other major MMO right now do, simply because WoW (current only!) content outside of raids doesn't feel like real content, just boring grind because that is in fact what 90% of it is. Everything in WoW is designed with a carrot attached, nothing is there just for fun. In 14, there are many activities, same in ESO and GW2 which are active through the community. In WoW, you are hard pressed to even find a M+ group. You could say well just play with guildies or friends, but what if they all quit?

I don't have these issues in other games because they are so accessible. WoW is still stuck in an ancient design which cockblocks you not just literally but also encourages toxicity and exclusion in the group finder. Its just not worth going through the slog, and once you finally reach your destination, well you've already seen that content 9000 times so what was the point even.

I think literally any other MMO rn is succeeding far better at variety, longevity, and quality content to the point I sort of chuckle every time WoW being compared to whatever MMO a person is playing at the time. It has lost so much that fun just doesn't exist anymore, all it offers is daily and weekly checklists that take forever to complete. I tried doing uldum and panda dailies + other dailies and just didn't have the time, my entire play session was taken by chores, because thats all the game boils down to, work.

In 14 and every other relevant MMO today everything is scaled and fluid with proper rewards which makes it ALL relevant and active. WoW is a dead game outside of CURRENT instances and always has been, once you take away good class and loot design it all becomes far more apparent. It may have 'content' outside raids but if you ask me, that's not really content.

I can for example play 14,ESO,GW2 simultaneously or I could play WoW and burn myself out with grind. I literally had more fun in BDO doing life skills.

[Indigenously Abled]

For me 14 has more content than WoW. All other major MMO right now do, simply because WoW (current only!) content outside of raids doesn't feel like real content, just boring grind because that is in fact what 90% of it is. Everything in WoW is designed with a carrot attached, nothing is there just for fun. In 14, there are many activities, same in ESO and GW2 which are active through the community. In WoW, you are hard pressed to even find a M+ group. You could say well just play with guildies or friends, but what if they all quit?

I don't have these issues in other games because they are so accessible. WoW is still stuck in an ancient design which cockblocks you not just literally but also encourages toxicity and exclusion in the group finder. Its just not worth going through the slog, and once you finally reach your destination, well you've already seen that content 9000 times so what was the point even.

I think literally any other MMO rn is succeeding far better at variety, longevity, and quality content to the point I sort of chuckle every time WoW being compared to whatever MMO a person is playing at the time. It has lost so much that fun just doesn't exist anymore, all it offers is daily and weekly checklists that take forever to complete. I tried doing uldum and panda dailies + other dailies and just didn't have the time, my entire play session was taken by chores, because thats all the game boils down to, work.

In 14 and every other relevant MMO today everything is scaled and fluid with proper rewards which makes it ALL relevant and active. WoW is a dead game outside of CURRENT instances and always has been, once you take away good class and loot design it all becomes far more apparent. It may have 'content' outside raids but if you ask me, that's not really content.

I can for example play 14,ESO,GW2 simultaneously or I could play WoW and burn myself out with grind. I literally had more fun in BDO doing life skills.

Final strike for wow with me was getting duplicates or garbage in m+ chests the first month of m+ in bfa. My time is more valuable to me than that.

[Azerate]

People love to claim that WoW is raid or die, yet the raiders make up only a minority of the WoW playerbase. The truth of the matter is that WoW offers plenty of content, especially for casual players, and it's the raiders who don't feel like there's enough content to do.

Very true. Unless you're in some hardcore mythic pushing guild, wow raiding takes like 3-6 hours per week. There's hundreds of hours of content to be done in every patch that isn't about raiding.

Segueing off of that, I will say that harassers and stalkers have been a big issue in WoW, and when I had to report people for it to the GMs, they didn't take it seriously. After Burning Crusade, it felt like Blizzard didn't ban anyone for anything except botting. Meanwhile in FF, if you have stalkers or harassers, they have a zero tolerance policy towards that and will give the players a 3-10 day vacation for that kind of behavior. That or if they have multiple offenses, will just straight up permaban them.

And big kudos to FF14 team for that, but if the game itself isn't keeping my interest, just the fact that I'm not getting harassed, or that people who harass me face swift punishment, won't make it enjoyable for me.

WoW is designed as a raid or die game. That's the focus for the game and the rest of the game is fitted for that purpose. All the grinds, all the AP, all the essences, the corruptions, even PvP balance, it all bows down to the almighty raiding scene and is twisted and folded until it fits that purpose. That is why WoW is called a raid or die game.

100% wrong.

The vast majority of that casual content is, as I mentioned before, going to go kill things or grinding old instances

No it's not. You either have absolutely no idea about the completionist content in wow, or you are desperately trying to tie everything into raiding just because it involves some combat or killing something or whatever.

Just to give some examples based on 8.3 content:
-there's like 8 mounts you can get in the patch zones from killing rares. Does killing elite mobs in the open world have something to do with raiding? Absolutely not. There are also toys and pets too
-Visions - loads of content here. Again, absolutely nothing to do with raiding. Got plenty of socials in my guild who never set foot in Ny'alotha progressing those and having a blast.

he moment they tried to expand on the variety of content WoW offers, with Pet Battles, which are brilliant and I love them, people bitched and whined

Some people will always whine. Just because a couple of clowns dislike some content, doesn't mean no one likes it.

It's weird to me when people will tell you that WoW has nothing but raiding...and then rattle off a list of non-raid stuff to do, but claim it doesn't count or something.

Yeah, that's exactly what the other guy above did. Might as well claim that if your characters even walks that's based off of raiding because you have to move in raids...come on.

" that make it unplayable in the long run"

Then how have I been playing it for years? Lmao

Almost everything in this world is an opinion, and that's mine.

Visions give gear. Raids give gear. Invasions give gear. Theres just so much progression relevant content. And dont get me wrong if you wanna stay 100% competitive you gotta do all of them every day and that kinda sucks with the rng thats tied to gear.

I mean...what does it even mean to be "100% competitive"? And why do you feel more than 0,0001% of the player base of a game should be like that?

You can spend 30 hours a week to be 100% competitive, but you can spend 5 hours a week to be 90% competitive. Unless you really want to, there's no reason to do the former. There are cutting edge guilds that complete the whole mythic raid before the release of the next raid tier with 1 raid day per week. I think the problem with this kind of argument is that you yourself feel compelled to do everything and can't let go, blaming the game for this approach instead.

In 14 and every other relevant MMO today everything is scaled and fluid with proper rewards which makes it ALL relevant and active. WoW is a dead game outside of CURRENT instances and always has been, once you take away good class and loot design it all becomes far more apparent. It may have 'content' outside raids but if you ask me, that's not really content.

And yet WoW is still killing all those games. I wonder why? Maybe people don't actually want to get scaled rewards for every single thing in the game including 20 year old instances that have been ground to death over the years? Or maybe people actually want challenge instead of getting handouts and making everything "relevant" but not really, because you can't ever make everything relevant while keeping it balanced and properly challenging?

[Delever]

Very true. Unless you're in some hardcore mythic pushing guild, wow raiding takes like 3-6 hours per week. There's hundreds of hours of content to be done in every patch that isn't about raiding.



And big kudos to FF14 team for that, but if the game itself isn't keeping my interest, just the fact that I'm not getting harassed, or that people who harass me face swift punishment, won't make it enjoyable for me.



100% wrong.



No it's not. You either have absolutely no idea about the completionist content in wow, or you are desperately trying to tie everything into raiding just because it involves some combat or killing something or whatever.

Just to give some examples based on 8.3 content:
-there's like 8 mounts you can get in the patch zones from killing rares. Does killing elite mobs in the open world have something to do with raiding? Absolutely not. There are also toys and pets too
-Visions - loads of content here. Again, absolutely nothing to do with raiding. Got plenty of socials in my guild who never set foot in Ny'alotha progressing those and having a blast.



Some people will always whine. Just because a couple of clowns dislike some content, doesn't mean no one likes it.



Yeah, that's exactly what the other guy above did. Might as well claim that if your characters even walks that's based off of raiding because you have to move in raids...come on.



Almost everything in this world is an opinion, and that's mine.



I mean...what does it even mean to be "100% competitive"? And why do you feel more than 0,0001% of the player base of a game should be like that?

You can spend 30 hours a week to be 100% competitive, but you can spend 5 hours a week to be 90% competitive. Unless you really want to, there's no reason to do the former. There are cutting edge guilds that complete the whole mythic raid before the release of the next raid tier with 1 raid day per week. I think the problem with this kind of argument is that you yourself feel compelled to do everything and can't let go, blaming the game for this approach instead.



And yet WoW is still killing all those games. I wonder why? Maybe people don't actually want to get scaled rewards for every single thing in the game including 20 year old instances that have been ground to death over the years? Or maybe people actually want challenge instead of getting handouts and making everything "relevant" but not really, because you can't ever make everything relevant while keeping it balanced and properly challenging?

I didnt blame the game. I stated this for the people that do feel obligated to do all that stuff. I dont do all of it every day and I do it at my own pace and ever since I got back to the game I got a character to 461 within a month or two playing chill and having a lot of fun doing M+ and visions and all that. It most certainly is a peoples mentality and currently I much preffer having a lot of things to do to progress in WoW at whatever pace I like rather than log in expert roulette log out in FFXIV until my clears day.

- - - Updated - - -

For me 14 has more content than WoW. All other major MMO right now do, simply because WoW (current only!) content outside of raids doesn't feel like real content, just boring grind because that is in fact what 90% of it is. Everything in WoW is designed with a carrot attached, nothing is there just for fun. In 14, there are many activities, same in ESO and GW2 which are active through the community. In WoW, you are hard pressed to even find a M+ group. You could say well just play with guildies or friends, but what if they all quit?

I don't have these issues in other games because they are so accessible. WoW is still stuck in an ancient design which cockblocks you not just literally but also encourages toxicity and exclusion in the group finder. Its just not worth going through the slog, and once you finally reach your destination, well you've already seen that content 9000 times so what was the point even.

I think literally any other MMO rn is succeeding far better at variety, longevity, and quality content to the point I sort of chuckle every time WoW being compared to whatever MMO a person is playing at the time. It has lost so much that fun just doesn't exist anymore, all it offers is daily and weekly checklists that take forever to complete. I tried doing uldum and panda dailies + other dailies and just didn't have the time, my entire play session was taken by chores, because thats all the game boils down to, work.

In 14 and every other relevant MMO today everything is scaled and fluid with proper rewards which makes it ALL relevant and active. WoW is a dead game outside of CURRENT instances and always has been, once you take away good class and loot design it all becomes far more apparent. It may have 'content' outside raids but if you ask me, that's not really content.

I can for example play 14,ESO,GW2 simultaneously or I could play WoW and burn myself out with grind. I literally had more fun in BDO doing life skills.

So M+, visions, nazjatar and mechagon are not content but triple triad and chocobo racing is. Ok mate gotcha.

[Asrialol]

For me 14 has more content than WoW. All other major MMO right now do, simply because WoW (current only!) content outside of raids doesn't feel like real content, just boring grind because that is in fact what 90% of it is. Everything in WoW is designed with a carrot attached, nothing is there just for fun. In 14, there are many activities, same in ESO and GW2 which are active through the community. In WoW, you are hard pressed to even find a M+ group. You could say well just play with guildies or friends, but what if they all quit?

I don't have these issues in other games because they are so accessible. WoW is still stuck in an ancient design which cockblocks you not just literally but also encourages toxicity and exclusion in the group finder. Its just not worth going through the slog, and once you finally reach your destination, well you've already seen that content 9000 times so what was the point even.

I think literally any other MMO rn is succeeding far better at variety, longevity, and quality content to the point I sort of chuckle every time WoW being compared to whatever MMO a person is playing at the time. It has lost so much that fun just doesn't exist anymore, all it offers is daily and weekly checklists that take forever to complete. I tried doing uldum and panda dailies + other dailies and just didn't have the time, my entire play session was taken by chores, because thats all the game boils down to, work.

In 14 and every other relevant MMO today everything is scaled and fluid with proper rewards which makes it ALL relevant and active. WoW is a dead game outside of CURRENT instances and always has been, once you take away good class and loot design it all becomes far more apparent. It may have 'content' outside raids but if you ask me, that's not really content.

I can for example play 14,ESO,GW2 simultaneously or I could play WoW and burn myself out with grind. I literally had more fun in BDO doing life skills.

So WoW isn't for you. That's fair, people are different. What you see as grinds, other people will see as character progression or whatever else they might call it. You say raiding is the only content, while other people has things such as pet battles be their main type of content.

What's laughable to me is people even comparing MMORPGs. What's the point? Play the one you enjoy the most. It's not rocket science. Nobody gives a shit if you like X or Y.

[Hyral]

No it's not. You either have absolutely no idea about the completionist content in wow, or you are desperately trying to tie everything into raiding just because it involves some combat or killing something or whatever.

Well, yes. I dunno about desperately, like I said I am glad both games are different, the only desperation I see is people needing to pretend FF is something it is not so they can beat it down in defense of their golden calf WoW. But yeah the beginning of this discussion was someone saying there's no content in FFXIV because the raiding and combat is limited. So I offered the counter that there is very little content in that aspect but there's a variety of content instead, minigames and crafting/gathering that usually people who come from WoW don't care about but to those who do enjoy it it is content. And compared that to WoW where it is mostly raiding and combat focused content it is an alternative. WoW is trying to expand on that though, DMF has a little bit of it and there's pet battles and more stuff to come in SL, but right now it is not to the same degree.

Some people will always whine. Just because a couple of clowns dislike some content, doesn't mean no one likes it.

Again, yes. That's what I said right after? I enjoy it and wish there was more of it. I guess I'm glad we are of one mind.

- - - Updated - - -

So WoW isn't for you. That's fair, people are different. What you see as grinds, other people will see as character progression or whatever else they might call it. You say raiding is the only content, while other people has things such as pet battles be their main type of content.

What's laughable to me is people even comparing MMORPGs. What's the point? Play the one you enjoy the most. It's not rocket science. Nobody gives a shit if you like X or Y.

This. So much this. So many bitch fights in this subforum would be fixed if people just understood it's ok for games to do different things.

[Lazuli]

And yet WoW is still killing all those games. I wonder why? Maybe people don't actually want to get scaled rewards for every single thing in the game including 20 year old instances that have been ground to death over the years? Or maybe people actually want challenge instead of getting handouts and making everything "relevant" but not really, because you can't ever make everything relevant while keeping it balanced and properly challenging?

WoW isn't killing anything, all major MMOs today are pretty stable or growing population. There are plenty challenge in any of these games, the point is there is fun to be had in any part of it not just top end game without feeling irrelevant. In what world would a player NOT want to be rewarded for the content they are doing? Baseless accusations like the end of your post show you have not played any of these and shouldn't speak on what you know nothing about but should try it instead to expand your horizons.

WoW is such a clown fiesta rn with 0 balance on corruption I find your comments a bit silly. Blizz basically gave up and let everyone be OP until SL making all content a joke. Such is the way of borrowed power I guess? Opinions are fine and all but make sure you know what you're talking about.

[Asrialol]

WoW isn't killing anything, all major MMOs today are pretty stable or growing population. There are plenty challenge in any of these games, the point is there is fun to be had in any part of it not just top end game without feeling irrelevant. In what world would a player NOT want to be rewarded for the content they are doing? Baseless accusations like the end of your post show you have not played any of these and shouldn't speak on what you know nothing about but should try it instead to expand your horizons.

WoW is such a clown fiesta rn with 0 balance on corruption I find your comments a bit silly. Blizz basically gave up and let everyone be OP until SL making all content a joke. Such is the way of borrowed power I guess? Opinions are fine and all but make sure you know what you're talking about.

Big power increase towards the end of the expac has been a thing for years. You also claim corruption has 0 balance. Nada, none. That shows you're just throwing out bullshit to try to prove some trash agenda you have. You also claim to know that a company has given up.

Here's a challenge for you. Prove your arguments. All of them. I'm waiting.