"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[justandulas]

And 90-95% of the player base is casual and don't give a fuck about competing or being at the top. We've had plenty of players that would be considered at the top chime in and say they are fine with it. So if the top 5-10% are OK with it. Why are the scrubs who will never be there so concerned?

Show me anyone in the top 10% who Thinks this is a good system. You can’t. No one thinks it’s good and the higher level you play the less appealing the system is.

Anyone who does m15+ or mythic raiding at all understand how flawed this is

IF it’s so good, I suggest you play the rest of bfa without any essences or corruption equipped. Tell us how that goes at the high end

[Nobleshield]

And now we see the problem in WoW's design that began 15 years ago. Push your game to only focus on the endgame and slowly but surely the story or choices don't matter. Nothing matters except the numbers. There cannot be a meaningful choice as long as there are actual gameplay affecting abilities; it will always devolve into "good" and "not good". Ideally the goal is to make the gap between them as minimal as possible and make it so a choice might not be as good as another in one way but makes up for it in another which keeps it as a viable option.

Honestly I don't see a solution anymore. Blizzard has made their own bed with the direction they've pushed the game and still largely ignoring everything other than the high endgame, just tweaking things down. Covenants are a really cool idea doomed to fail if the abilities stay as they are, and either they don't realize that, don't care, or are stupid enough to not think the people who will ignore all flavor and aesthetic when picking a covenant won't have their warped ideas trickle down to nearly every other part of the game at worst or at best create yet another divide between "good" players and "bads".

[justandulas]

Classes are permanent choices and they work well in MMORPGs. Covenants are not permanent choices. So they will be fine. All I see is a bunch if people whining and crying about having to do some in game work if they want to constantly swap out abilities.

What they should do is make the covenant abilities permanently learned and swappable, but that you have to actually swap covenants and learn it first. Once you’ve learned it from them you never unlearn ability, and can freely swap go who you prefer

[Woobels]

I genuinely don't get this obsession with permanent "meaningful" choices in an MMORPG. Yes they're really important in games like Disco Elysium or Baldur's Gate or what have you but it's just not the same in an MMO. It's so flawed and feels forced in, WoW isn't that kind of game, it never has been.
Too many players care about performance and even if you don't it just outright removes a lot of experimentation among other things.

[justandulas]

And now we see the problem in WoW's design that began 15 years ago. Push your game to only focus on the endgame and slowly but surely the story or choices don't matter. Nothing matters except the numbers. There cannot be a meaningful choice as long as there are actual gameplay affecting abilities; it will always devolve into "good" and "not good". Ideally the goal is to make the gap between them as minimal as possible and make it so a choice might not be as good as another in one way but makes up for it in another which keeps it as a viable option.

Honestly I don't see a solution anymore. Blizzard has made their own bed with the direction they've pushed the game and still largely ignoring everything other than the high endgame, just tweaking things down. Covenants are a really cool idea doomed to fail if the abilities stay as they are, and either they don't realize that, don't care, or are stupid enough to not think the people who will ignore all flavor and aesthetic when picking a covenant won't have their warped ideas trickle down to nearly every other part of the game at worst or at best create yet another divide between "good" players and "bads".

It’s a great idea but designed so incompetently that it cannot succeed as is and will be reverted sooner rather than later whether they want to or not. Good idea but horrible game design

[Nobleshield]

What they should do is make the covenant abilities permanently learned and swappable, but that you have to actually swap covenants and learn it first. Once you’ve learned it from them you never unlearn ability, and can freely swap go who you prefer

Wouldn't that just "force" getting all the Covenants unlocked first instead of forcing picking the "best" one? I.e. more of a grind and likely timegating?

[justandulas]

I genuinely don't get this obsession with permanent "meaningful" choices in an MMORPG. Yes they're really important in games like Disco Elysium or Baldur's Gate or what have you but it's just not the same in an MMO. It's so flawed and feels forced in, WoW isn't that kind of game, it never has been.
Too many players care about performance and even if you don't it just outright removes a lot of experimentation among other things.

Even wow classic, which I love, isn’t so rigid about permanent choices. The covenants are a good idea but designed ass backwards

[SirBeef]

Power gains are always more important than aesthetics in competitive environment. When those two become mutually exclusive, you must choose the power.

And again, many in the competitive environment have chimed in to say this is fine, and the vast majority of players are not involved in this aspect of the game. So I fail to see the issue. I understand the concern and plan to choose the aesthetic aspect over the ability. That will it stop me from raiding with my guild, running dungeons, doing random BGs, running Torghast, doing WQs and dailies, or anything else in the game.

If I was interested in being at the top, and felt I needed to use multiple covenants, then I would do what was necessary to swap them out and gain all the benefits for each activity instead of crying about it.

[Hitei]

Wouldn't that just "force" getting all the Covenants unlocked first instead of forcing picking the "best" one? I.e. more of a grind and likely timegating?

Yes. At that point you basically just have essences.

[justandulas]

Wouldn't that just "force" getting all the Covenants unlocked first instead of forcing picking the "best" one? I.e. more of a grind and likely timegating?

Better than being locked into a covenant you despise just because Blizz put your best talent behind it.

Maybe then you’d only wanna learn 2 of them since you could only use the 1 ability at a time, but it’d be more flexible than the current system

[Nobleshield]

I genuinely don't get this obsession with permanent "meaningful" choices in an MMORPG. Yes they're really important in games like Disco Elysium or Baldur's Gate or what have you but it's just not the same in an MMO. It's so flawed and feels forced in, WoW isn't that kind of game, it never has been.
Too many players care about performance and even if you don't it just outright removes a lot of experimentation among other things.

too many players care about performance because for years, maybe forever, performance has been the only measure. It's even worse with damage meters, parses, RIO, what have you since those just make your performance a competition with your peers rather than something only you care about.

[justandulas]

And again, many in the competitive environment have chimed in to say this is fine, and the vast majority of players are not involved in this aspect of the game. So I fail to see the issue. I understand the concern and plan to choose the aesthetic aspect over the ability. That will it stop me from raiding with my guild, running dungeons, doing random BGs, running Torghast, doing WQs and dailies, or anything else in the game.

If I was interested in being at the top, and felt I needed to use multiple covenants, then I would do what was necessary to swap them out and gain all the benefits for each activity instead of crying about it.

No one in the competitive environment says it’s fine. Name them. Link the videos of any high end players loving the system.

[Lahis]

And again, many in the competitive environment have chimed in to say this is fine, and the vast majority of players are not involved in this aspect of the game. So I fail to see the issue. I understand the concern and plan to choose the aesthetic aspect over the ability. That will it stop me from raiding with my guild, running dungeons, doing random BGs, running Torghast, doing WQs and dailies, or anything else in the game.

If I was interested in being at the top, and felt I needed to use multiple covenants, then I would do what was necessary to swap them out and gain all the benefits for each activity instead of crying about it.

You can't change Covenants (or can change but can't get back into the one you left). That is the whole problem. You need 4 equally geared characters of the same class to be able to use the optimal build in every situation.

[SirBeef]

What they should do is make the covenant abilities permanently learned and swappable, but that you have to actually swap covenants and learn it first. Once you’ve learned it from them you never unlearn ability, and can freely swap go who you prefer

I disagree. There is no point for covenants at that point. The purpose is to gain their trust and commit to one to gain their benefit. I wouldn't be opposed to allowing player to gain rep for all 4 at reduced rates per covenant you maxed out. So you chose your first covenant, the next one you gain rep at 50% reduced rate. Because they would be skeptical of your motivations. The third at 75% reduction, the 4th at 90% reduction. Then you can freely swap as you out in the work for the covenants to gain their favor.

- - - Updated - - -

You can't change Covenants (or can change but can't get back into the one you left). That is the whole problem. You need 4 equally geared characters of the same class to be able to use the optimal build in every situation.

You can, Blizzard said it would be difficult.

- - - Updated - - -

No one in the competitive environment says it’s fine. Name them. Link the videos of any high end players loving the system.

Got it so Method doesn't count?

[Lahis]

You can, Blizzard said it would be difficult.

Which means it cannot be done when you need to swap builds between M+ and Raiding and back again. Or between Single Target and Multi Target bosses.

[Nobleshield]

This whole "RPG" thing is new to wow 16 years in. It's not that I'm playing the wrong game, it's that they've suddenly changed how the game works.

Wat? Seriously, WoW's been an RPG from the start like EverQuest before it (or tried to be). If anything it's been recently they've moved further and further away from that.

[Hitei]

This whole "RPG" thing is new to wow 16 years in. It's not that I'm playing the wrong game, it's that they've suddenly changed how the game works.

It's not. You picked a class. You picked a faction. You picked a race. In earlier expansions you picked a profession, and a profession specialization. The game has always had power-altering major choices that are either permanent or require investment to go back on. The game didn't suddenly change, its RPG aspects have been slowly eroded to appeal to a subset of players that don't even want to play an MMORPG.

[justandulas]

Wat? Seriously, WoW's been an RPG from the start like EverQuest before it (or tried to be). If anything it's been recently they've moved further and further away from that.

Wow vanilla was labeled casual mmorpg back in the day, and has drifted further and further away from rpg. It is more mmo arpg than mmo rpg today. It has more in common with diablo 3 talent and loot wise than it does an old mmo rpg like eq or even wow classic.

Why Blizz would pick now to go full rpg, without the rest of the game reflecting that, is beyond me.

If it was a real rpg, you’d be able to play the villain

[Nobleshield]

Wow vanilla was labeled casual mmorpg back in the day, and has drifted further and further away from rpg. It is more mmo arpg than mmo rpg today. It has more in common with diablo 3 talent and loot wise than it does an old mmo rpg like eq or even wow classic.

Why Blizz would pick now to go full rpg, without the rest of the game reflecting that, is beyond me.

If it was a real rpg, you’d be able to play the villain

I mean you can, just play Horde. or Forsaken. :P I kid, I kid.

But seriously yeah. It's like.. rather than make a new game/IP that focused on that e-sport ARPG stuff (or fix Diablo to do it) they decided to put that stuff into WoW and it only superfluously resembles an RPG now. Gone are most of the things that made an RPG and RPG, and they only linger enough to still sort of exist but as a shadow of their former selves (yeah I'm being dramatic). The fact they seem to be catering/focusing on people who all things considered really don't care about the RPG aspect of an RPG is the most telling. They're catering to people who seem like they'd rather be playing an FPS or some sort of game like that with world championships and ELO or whatever that ranking system is called than an RPG with RPG elements.

I think Blizzard has honestly lost the way. I was watching some old Blizzcons from like 2005 and god it's like night and day. Their entire philosophy and everything has shifted and IMHO not for the better

[Lahis]

I think Blizzard has honestly lost the way. I was watching some old Blizzcons from like 2005 and god it's like night and day. Their entire philosophy and everything has shifted and IMHO not for the better

Gamers and nerds at the head of the company have been replaced with businessmen, so of course the focus shifts from making good games to making profit and value to shareholders.