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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Spot on.

    Replayability. Legion had ton of that when it comes to alts and main since every class hall was different. Each spec was unique. Each Artifact weapon and their skins were unique cosmetics that you could earn. Different Mage Tower questline/fight for roles/dps also gave you something new to do on your characters.

    I have always only had 2-3 alts I played regularly. Except for in WoD when I had 7. But that was WoD. Content was crap so they leveled up and did raids. But at least the specs was more fun to play. Thats not me saying WoD is better, at all. But to that single point it was. Then Legion came and I got 14 characters to 120, all with at least one spec I really enjoyed. Two MM Hunters, two holydins, two Arcane Mages and one of the rest of the classes.

    Legion gave alts a purpose. Which BfA do not. I got 16 at 120 now thanks to Korraks Revenge(BfA have had good variety in leveling, gotta say that)Barely play 5 of them. Anchor Weed alts most of them. Can't be arsed pugging or something similar, and the other content I barely touch because BfA got no replayability. Do Warfront on your 5th char is so "fun". Doing Islands on your 3rd is so "fun". Doing Horrific Vision, the same two Visions week in and week out is just boring AF. And thats not just the contents fault. But classes plays so much slower and so much more similar now than in Legion. It's almost like the devs rushed it all.

    Shadowlands is already better for replayability than BfA has been for 21 months. Covenants give you a reason to play alts. Its a toned down Class Hall(blizz said 12 Class Halls was a lot of work, can see the reasoning) that gives you awesome cosmetics and choices. Even if Torghast fails we still have the Covenants for that purpose.

    Blizzard said in an interview about Shadowlands that alt friendliness could mean different things. Power is one of them, giving content for the alts is another. Spot on by blizzard, and it clearly shows with SL that they don't think they did that part very well in BfA.
    Good point. Legion was actually quite decent for alts. BFA is very bad. I quit the game 6 months ago due to feeling "finished" on my main. I couldnt bare myself playing alts at max lvl cause I had to do all the same things over again.

    Im back now and have played some on my main and leveling a Kul Tiran Monk. When he reaches 110(for heritage A) im not sure i'll play BfA anymore. Im in the same situation now as I was 6 months ago when logging into other chars, except now the grind for various stuff I gotta do is longer.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Good point. Legion was actually quite decent for alts. BFA is very bad. I quit the game 6 months ago due to feeling "finished" on my main. I couldnt bare myself playing alts at max lvl cause I had to do all the same things over again.

    Im back now and have played some on my main and leveling a Kul Tiran Monk. When he reaches 110(for heritage A) im not sure i'll play BfA anymore. Im in the same situation now as I was 6 months ago when logging into other chars, except now the grind for various stuff I gotta do is longer.
    Yeah, I raidlog now, two times a week maximum. A Mythic+ IF a guildie ask during the week maybe. Did not do that at all in Legion. Because at this time around I finished my last Class Hall for the Legendary Campaign while still doing Antorus on my alts because to me they just felt better to play and more unique. Still did a couple of Mage Towers, which were quite easy for sure, but they were still better than BfAs Visions to me because there was more more of them, thus greater variety.

    Funny thing for me is that I played alts less after they made Essences more accessible some weeks ago, because to me thats not my biggest issue, though I understand why the grind is an issue to people. But since there are nothing special for my alts when it comes to content, and that they feel worse to play overall compared to Legion I got no interest of playing them. And thats a shame because there are so many months till Shadowlands. But luckily there are other games

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yeah, I raidlog now, two times a week maximum. A Mythic+ IF a guildie ask during the week maybe. Did not do that at all in Legion. Because at this time around I finished my last Class Hall for the Legendary Campaign while still doing Antorus on my alts because to me they just felt better to play and more unique. Still did a couple of Mage Towers, which were quite easy for sure, but they were still better than BfAs Visions to me because there was more more of them, thus greater variety.

    Funny thing for me is that I played alts less after they made Essences more accessible some weeks ago, because to me thats not my biggest issue, though I understand why the grind is an issue to people. But since there are nothing special for my alts when it comes to content, and that they feel worse to play overall compared to Legion I got no interest of playing them. And thats a shame because there are so many months till Shadowlands. But luckily there are other games
    yeah I remember months ago after playing my main and 1 horde character(to see that side of the story) for a good while.. Lvld a zandalari priest and lvld a few alts I had at 110 to max level. then I got this itch of "why bother" everytime I logged an alt. Its just 100% the same thing.

    Now in 8.3 its even worse cause i've been gone for a while. I logged my horde characters, realised what I had to do all over again, and logged off. Did the main features on my Paladin main and will call it a day once I reach 110+ on my monk.

    I also tried stepping into arena thinking maybe that would be nice. But nah, corruption on items has ruined that experience. Oh your teammate exploded and went from 100% HP to 0% HP in 1-2 seconds? Oh well.

    And they went to faaaaaar with the RNG. Do you like RNG on your RNG so you can RNG while you RNG? Then BFA is for you.
    Last edited by crusadernero; 2020-05-15 at 07:30 AM.

  4. #384
    I think the alt unfriendliness of BFA has mostly disappeared and was more a thing in the beginning. I'm currently getting my +15 done on 6 chars each week outside mythic raiding and at no point in Legion could I do that. The AP grind was just much worse in Legion and all the hours of spamming Maw of Souls to stay relevant is time I would rather have spent across different characters honestly. I guess you can flip it and say BFA went too relaxed on AP instead where it doesn't feel as powerful but I'd rather take it like this than how it was.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    BfA is hated because its finally real mmorpg expansion - with ton of grinds and people who time invested more are rightfully stronger

    but majority of people on forums and streamers dont want to play mmorpg

    they want to play dota style lobby based instance symulator.

    thats why they hate BfA because they cant only log in for raiding and mythic +
    Classic also had a lot of grinds and people investing lots of time have vastly stronger characters than players playing casually, not commiting to group efforts such as dungeons and raiding.

    Yet Classic isn't hated. But Classic is aimed at a very specific demographic. People that sign up for Classic know that they are in for a grindy experience.

    We had expansions like WoD which were a direct refutal of MMO paradgim. You were getting raid quality gear from mission table quests, literally getting epics shipped in mailbox from bosses that you haven't even killed. People got used to such easy progression and hate BFA because of this. I returned to the game in March and I like it. I had to do a fair share of grinding (flying, essences, item level, RIO rating, corruption) but this is the first expansion in YEARS that I can actually play my main character and stick with it.

    People expecting to play comfortably with 10 alts like they did in WoD were in for a sour surprise. I have some alts for old raid mount / gold farming but that's about it. There's no raiding with them, or mythic pluses. It's too much grind and I'm okay with that.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    BfA is hated because its finally real mmorpg expansion - with ton of grinds and people who time invested more are rightfully stronger
    Wouldn't the insanely powerful catch up mechanics quite heavily erode your case? Both in Legion and BFA I never went super crazy on grinding the powers and I never stayed far behind people that did in terms of level due to the catch up combined with exponential increase meaning the more you work the more it slows down relatively per level.

    When I switched mains for BFD I was better geared than my Uldir main that I had spent a considerable amount of time gearing in under a week.

    I just don't think BFA is that interesting but I don't hate it. The concept of there being a faction war is super lazy, I don't think any of the systems in BFA were particularly engaging as it makes a lot of the progression very binary, past the point of regular loot drops. An azerite trait is either on or off, the same with corruptions. Also, aside from MOP I think BFA has by far the worst dungeons of any expansion, a number of which still have some pretty nasty bugs.

    The only thing that actually really pisses me off though is the world lag. How the fuck have Blizzard even achieved this? I was thinking about this the other night and back in Vanilla it was standard for players to have a 1-200ms latency, even on faster connections. How, suddenly are players experience lag in the seconds when latencies are under 20ms?! Fortunately it doesn't happen that much, but when it does I see others in local chat asking about lag.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
    I think the alt unfriendliness of BFA has mostly disappeared
    Alts still require the Horrific Vision grind. This alone greatly reduces my desire to play alts. Horrific visions were bad enough on my main.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Alts still require the Horrific Vision grind. This alone greatly reduces my desire to play alts. Horrific visions were bad enough on my main.
    I think that just depends on you as a person and where your limit is. I got the cloak to 15 on 5 chars (12 on a 6th one) and out of those, 4 of them are maxed out (1 is lagging few weeks behind) and I'm definitely getting a bit cba of it now as I'm doing 5x 5 mask runs a week and trying to catch up on the 6th. The idea to catch up on any future alts definitely feels like a drag at this point.

    However this isn't really something specific to BFA though. I feel like with every expansion there's that decline with every alt where the question "is it worth it to push myself through this again?" gets more and more hard to justify with each alt.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Chloral View Post
    I remember a time where Wrath of the Lich King was the WORST EXPANSION EVER.
    said no player ever

  10. #390
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Alts still require the Horrific Vision grind. This alone greatly reduces my desire to play alts. Horrific visions were bad enough on my main.
    You literally need to do one Vision per week... to get currency for it you can either get weekly major assault to 100%, which is about 20 minutes total give or take or do several minor vision runs for objective only.

    I mean... you literally need minimum of gameplay. What's the point of making alts if you don't even play with them? I mean lulz?

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    You literally need to do one Vision per week...
    Except no, there are places in the quest chain where you need to do up to four in a week.

    In any case, why are trying to tell me what my personal reaction should be?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  12. #392
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Except no, there are places in the quest chain where you need to do up to four in a week.

    In any case, why are trying to tell me what my personal reaction should be?
    You need? Is that existential need? Omegalul... Until level 5 of cloak you literally just run in to boss and kill it, total 2 mins of vision. You get resources handed for much of it from intro quest.

    I mean, I am totally weirded out by people like you. What's the point of making alts if you don't even intend to play the game. You talk about 15 cloak as if it's some insurmountable grind, wtf, lol. It's total on the rails thing that you get basically by doing patch stuff as you go, simply for loot.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    You need? Is that existential need? Omegalul...
    I'm using the word "need" in the same sense you used the word "need." So how about you look in a mirror and answer your own question there about what that word means.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by naeblis495 View Post
    -Whateverthehell-forging still existing ,even being replaced by something far worse in the last patch :corruption
    Well lets just go back to Re-forging.

  15. #395
    Death by a thousand cuts. I cannot point to one individual feature or decision that has caused me to move away from BFA. I have played every raid since vanilla. I have taken breaks here and there, but have enjoyed the game on some level through thick and thin. For me personally, it is a combination of the gearing systems, azerite, grinds, essences, corruption, WF/TF, and overabundance of gear. Other factors include the terrible gear designs with just a few exceptions, although the art team still produces some awesome stuff, the gear has mostly fallen completely flat for me.

    All that said, for the majority of this expansion i have not enjoyed the majority of specs. There are some exceptions, but generally speaking, i do not enjoy the class design philosophy. IE and WF for me were a complete disaster, and a HUGE wasted opportunity, IE especially. As for content, i enjoyed the raids, but everything else from M+ to IE have such a GOGOGOGOGO design, it really takes away from the feeling of an adventure game, and instead they feel like a series of minigames.

    Some of these gripes are being looked at in SL, many are not. And my major concern with SL is that there absolutely will be more of the same by a different name. There will be a grind, no matter what. There will be endless gated content. The classes will feel very different im sure, and i am yet to form a firm opinion on whether i like the direction they are going or not - time will tell, but i have little faith they will get the classes to a place i enjoy many of them ever again.

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