Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Crissi]

They are, are they? Did you actually do a headcount?

And what kind of masks are they?

Proper medical ones or something like cloth fabric? Or a scarf? Because the latter isn't really going to protect you. Then there's the issue of whether the masks are actually worn properly (ie. they're not too loose).

That's not a choice. My mother has never been abused or shot by the cops, and in all likelihood never will because I live in a country where the police aren't as corrupt, are actually properly trained and need to be psychologically competent. It is far more likely my mother will get the virus for someone because of a 2nd wave caused by these protests.

Want change? Go out on voting day and vote out the idiot politicians who are implementing poor policy or are lacking the action and the will to change legislature. If everyone does this, if everyone wants solidarity... that's the time to do it.

I don't disagree with the protests in principle but we're in the middle of a pandemic for crying out loud - look at what's happened in NYC and northern Italy. Is it worth having hospitals overwhelmed, more people dying and people not getting medical attention because the ER is full of virus patients? Just remember that if a loved one gets this virus and gets very ill because tens of thousands of people get exposed to a virus we have no vaccine for and is particularly dangerous for the older demograpgic.

I dunno, why dont you go look at all the pictures taken? in my city at least, they are.

and thats great, you and your mother are privileged enough that you dont need to worry about it. Minorities in my country don't have that, so your opinion really is meaningless when it comes to rights here. My bf already has had multiple issues being shit on by the cops despite doing nothing more than 5 mph speeding over the limit in the wrong part of town.

and sure, we'll vote, but substantial change comes from substantial circumstances beyond just an election. We're having conversations and even actions taken to fix this because of the protests, stuff that was unlikely to happen if we only vote and do nothing else for a year. Us Americans have fairly short memories after all, and its a long way til the election still and even longer til a vaccine.

again, the people protesting obviously feel this cause is obviously worth braving the covid risk for. They know the risks.

and my parents would fall under the category of high risk for multiple factors. They still support this, they'll just stay inside as much as possible and insist anyone that has protested recently not visit.

[Fargus]

I dunno, why dont you go look at all the pictures taken? in my city at least, they are.

and thats great, you and your mother are privileged enough that you dont need to worry about it. Minorities in my country don't have that, so your opinion really is meaningless when it comes to rights here. My bf already has had multiple issues being shit on by the cops despite doing nothing more than 5 mph speeding over the limit in the wrong part of town.

and sure, we'll vote, but substantial change comes from substantial circumstances beyond just an election. We're having conversations and even actions taken to fix this because of the protests, stuff that was unlikely to happen if we only vote and do nothing else for a year. Us Americans have fairly short memories after all, and its a long way til the election still and even longer til a vaccine.

again, the people protesting obviously feel this cause is obviously worth braving the covid risk for. They know the risks.

and my parents would fall under the category of high risk for multiple factors. They still support this, they'll just stay inside as much as possible and insist anyone that has protested recently not visit.

Privilege? You don't even know if my mother is part of that minority or not. Fact is you made a baseless assumption of how she'd be treated by the police here.

I don't think it's worth the risk at all. You'll see a 2nd wave, and your corrupt politicians doing nothing. The status quo will remain. Then what?

IMO your country needs a civil war, or some kind of military coup, sadly, for there to be any meaningful change. Especially with your two-party political system who's in the pockets of big business and the MIC.

[Crissi]

Privilege? You don't even know if my mother is part of that minority or not. Fact is you made a baseless assumption of how she'd be treated by the police here.

I don't think it's worth the risk at all. You'll see a 2nd wave, and your corrupt politicians doing nothing. The status quo will remain. Then what?

IMO your country needs a civil war, or some kind of military coup, sadly, for there to be any meaningful change. Especially with your two-party political system who's in the pockets of big business and the MIC.

you said you were in a different country with less problematic cops. That is privilege, because she doesn't need to worry about something that minority Americans do, thus making mass gathering choice easier to make.

Our politicians are currently doing stuff. Minneapolis is abolishing their police department. Many other departments are having some of their funding redirected. Bills are being introduced to fix the qualified immunity shit that protects so many cops. And if all this demonization causes problem cops to just up and quit, thats also productive.

[Kasierith]

you said you were in a different country with less problematic cops. That is privilege, because she doesn't need to worry about something that minority Americans do, thus making mass gathering choice easier to make.

Our politicians are currently doing stuff. Minneapolis is abolishing their police department. Many other departments are having some of their funding redirected. Bills are being introduced to fix the qualified immunity shit that protects so many cops. And if all this demonization causes problem cops to just up and quit, thats also productive.

Which bills are you referring to that address qualified immunity?

[Fargus]

you said you were in a different country with less problematic cops. That is privilege, because she doesn't need to worry about something that minority Americans do, thus making mass gathering choice easier to make.

Our politicians are currently doing stuff. Minneapolis is abolishing their police department. Many other departments are having some of their funding redirected. Bills are being introduced to fix the qualified immunity shit that protects so many cops. And if all this demonization causes problem cops to just up and quit, thats also productive.

It's not a privilege though. It's not some kind of special right, it's the standard here. You would have a point if she got special protections in a system that continually fails people.

Abolishing? Does that mean there'll be no police there?

Hopefully they redirect that money to actually train them properly. I heard it was 3 weeks on average? And they recruit just about anyone? Should be a lot harder to be a cop, with a couple years training at the very least.

[Crissi]

Which bills are you referring to that address qualified immunity?

hmm, further reading, while Booker and Harris introduced it, but Republicans are being Republicans about it. SO...that's one thing voting will fix.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not a privilege though. It's not some kind of special right, it's the standard here. You would have a point if she got special protections in a system that continually fails people.

Abolishing? Does that mean there'll be no police there?

Hopefully they redirect that money to actually train them properly. I heard it was 3 weeks on average? And they recruit just about anyone? Should be a lot harder to be a cop, with a couple years training at the very least.

Just because its standard where you are doesnt mean you're not privilaged compared to Americans, since we obviously have more police problems and thus have a harder time choosing. You are able to have the opinion you have BECAUSE you dont need to worry about the cops.

From what I understand, they're firing EVERYONE. Then they'll reform as needed with better focus.

[Egomaniac]

It's not a privilege though. It's not some kind of special right, it's the standard here. You would have a point if she got special protections in a system that continually fails people.

She said it's a privilege compared to minorities in America...not an absolute privilege.

[Kasierith]

hmm, further reading, while Booker and Harris introduced it, but Republicans are being Republicans about it. SO...that's one thing voting will fix.

The barrier to qualified imminity isn't legislative. It's judicial. When Scalia raged against law making from the bench, this is what he referred to.. the recourse for cleanly addressing qualified immunity are flimsy at best regardless of the Republicans because the scotus ruled for qualified immunity and by doing so ruled that it was constitutional. Addressing it would have to skirt the constitutionality issue, be brought up to the Supreme Court in a direct challenge, or be a constitutional amendment.

Don't get me wrong., I want it mitigated to a bare shadow of its former self, with boundaries strictly defined by law. The novel civil actions protection in particular, the one that allowed a cop to rape someone and then say "my bad I didn't know it wasn't within my scope of practice" needs to die. But it isn't as easily addressable as people believe.

[Crissi]

The barrier to qualified imminity isn't legislative. It's judicial. When Scalia raged against law making from the bench, this is what he referred to.. the recourse for cleanly addressing qualified immunity are flimsy at best regardless of the Republicans because the scotus ruled for qualified immunity and by doing so ruled that it was constitutional. Addressing it would have to skirt the constitutionality issue, be brought up to the Supreme Court in a direct challenge, or be a constitutional amendment.

Don't get me wrong., I want it mitigated to a bare shadow of its former self, with boundaries strictly defined by law. The novel civil actions protection in particular, the one that allowed a cop to rape someone and then say "my bad I didn't know it wasn't within my scope of practice" needs to die. But it isn't as easily addressable as people believe.

well there's a few lawsuits in the pipeline so hopefully it gets overturned that way

[Ripster42]

It doesn’t choke the person until you apply that pressure on the back of the neck... a one armed version is useless.

It's to rescue people, of course it doesn't choke them. It's also not useless. Corrals an arm and uses your shoulder to ward 'attacks' while allowing you to swim sidestroke.

[Fargus]

Just because its standard where you are doesnt mean you're not privilaged compared to Americans, since we obviously have more police problems and thus have a harder time choosing. You are able to have the opinion you have BECAUSE you dont need to worry about the cops.

From what I understand, they're firing EVERYONE. Then they'll reform as needed with better focus.

Well, I don't live in the US so it's wrong to say someone like me is getting special treatment (that's what a privilege is). Because in my country, a better minimum standard of care isn't special consideration. It's just normal. Really, it's more a human right, not a privilege. So is a good educational and healthcare standard. Parts of your country might not be able to take that for granted, but that's just your human rights being curbstomped. Not being slung with a $10,000 ICU bill (even with insurance) shouldn't be considered special treatment in a society that actually gives a shit about its own people.

If that's the case, then who's going to help you if someone steals your stuff? Threatens your life? Decides to burn down your house?

[Ripster42]

well there's a few lawsuits in the pipeline so hopefully it gets overturned that way

One of the more promising ones.

[Fargus]

She said it's a privilege compared to minorities in America...not an absolute privilege.

Then that word has lost its meaning. Maybe the correct word is luxury.

[Ripster42]

Well, I don't live in the US so it's wrong to say someone like me is getting special treatment (that's what a privilege is). Because in my country, a better minimum standard of care isn't special consideration. It's just normal. Really, it's more a human right, not a privilege. So is a good educational and healthcare standard. Parts of your country might not be able to take that for granted, but that's just your human rights being curbstomped. Not being slung with a $10,000 ICU bill (even with insurance) shouldn't be considered special treatment in a society that actually gives a shit about its own people.

If that's the case, then who's going to help you if someone steals your stuff? Threatens your life? Decides to burn down your house?

Do you really not understand the point being made? You get special treatment as the citizen of a different country in comparison to US citizens. That privileges are often relative things?

[Kasierith]

well there's a few lawsuits in the pipeline so hopefully it gets overturned that way

The problem with that route is that while that's the easiest to use due to a Republican dominated government, it can't "overturn" qualified immunity as a whole. At best it can further define limitations on the existing system. Which is better, but not the entirety of the issue.

[Egomaniac]

Then that word has lost its meaning. Maybe the correct word is luxury.

Hasn't lost it's meaning. You need to pay more attention to context.

[Elegiac]

Well, I don't live in the US so it's wrong to say someone like me is getting special treatment (that's what a privilege is). Because in my country, a better minimum standard of care isn't special consideration. It's just normal. Really, it's more a human right, not a privilege.

Uh huh. And living in a country where human rights are recognized and protected is a privilege. You're getting the point.

If that's the case, then who's going to help you if someone steals your stuff? Threatens your life? Decides to burn down your house?

1) Not the cops; they only 'solve' around 19% of crimes and their purpose is to protect private property, not personal property.

2) Also not the cops, they have a tendency to escalate situations and aren't obligated to stop crimes in progress anyway.

3) The fire department.

[Ripster42]

The problem with that route is that while that's the easiest to use due to a Republican dominated government, it can't "overturn" qualified immunity as a whole. At best it can further define limitations on the existing system. Which is better, but not the entirety of the issue.

Thought SCOTUS overturning prior SCOTUS rulings is just incredibly uncommon, not impossible.

[Elegiac]

Thought SCOTUS overturning prior SCOTUS rulings is just incredibly uncommon, not impossible.

Moreover, constitutional revisions are going to have to be considered in terms of addressing America's problems anyway.

Looking at you, 13th Amendment.

[Fargus]

Hasn't lost it's meaning. You need to pay more attention to context.

If a standard service is a privilege, that means I am getting special treatment. I am not getting special treatment with what I described, ergo, it's not a privilege. Context would only matter were I a US citizen and getting a higher standard of treatment than the norm.