Was Thrall irresponsible or was the Horde too evil for itself?

[Grazrug]

The real problem is blizzard not being able to write horde characters without villain batting and then killing them off in bad ways as result. The Horde is close to being nothing while the Alliance is thriving and filled with privilege most players aren't even willing to accept as it stands. Once Alliance bias will stop the Horde will see some good days again. I am certain.

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In the end, the confusion over Thrall's capacity as a leader and the moral culpability of Horde come down to, as always, the sloppy and inconsistent writing Blizzard has had since at least TBC.



Er...the future king of Lordaeron. Not Stormwind.

Also, Arthas was a fairly decent guy as far as I'm aware, up until the whole thing with the Scourge and Frostmourne (though I wouldn't be surprised if the Arthas book made it seem like there was darkness lurking underneath the surface ever prior to that point). He may have even made for a decent king, if all that hadn't gone down.

Gul'dan, meanwhile, has always been an asshole. Even in the AU from WoD. And speaking of WoD, that expansion kind of proved that the Horde didn't need someone like Gul'dan to become bloodthirsty warmongers. The Orcs always seem quite eager to follow anyone who will tell them it's okay to go raping and pillaging. And even when there are other races that are a part of the Horde, the Orcs (or more recently, the Forsaken) still tend to lead the rest of the Horde by the nose, while the other races seem to just shrug and go along with it or, at most, wring their hands impotently for a good long while before actually attempting to do anything about it.

In general, the Alliance's more evil characters (Arthas, Garithos, Blackmoore, Admiral Proudmoore, etc.) tend to be the exceptions, while it's the opposite for the Horde, where it's individual members like Thrall, Saurfang, or Baine who are attempting to change the Horde's seemingly fundamental nature.

How is massacring all of Stratholme being a decent guy? Arthas slaughtered an entire city before he even picked up Fostmourne. The spoiled evil attitude happened long before he went Scourge himself. Stop the delusion.

- - - Updated - - -

In the end, the confusion over Thrall's capacity as a leader and the moral culpability of Horde come down to, as always, the sloppy and inconsistent writing Blizzard has had since at least TBC.



Er...the future king of Lordaeron. Not Stormwind.

Also, Arthas was a fairly decent guy as far as I'm aware, up until the whole thing with the Scourge and Frostmourne (though I wouldn't be surprised if the Arthas book made it seem like there was darkness lurking underneath the surface ever prior to that point). He may have even made for a decent king, if all that hadn't gone down.

Gul'dan, meanwhile, has always been an asshole. Even in the AU from WoD. And speaking of WoD, that expansion kind of proved that the Horde didn't need someone like Gul'dan to become bloodthirsty warmongers. The Orcs always seem quite eager to follow anyone who will tell them it's okay to go raping and pillaging. And even when there are other races that are a part of the Horde, the Orcs (or more recently, the Forsaken) still tend to lead the rest of the Horde by the nose, while the other races seem to just shrug and go along with it or, at most, wring their hands impotently for a good long while before actually attempting to do anything about it.

In general, the Alliance's more evil characters (Arthas, Garithos, Blackmoore, Admiral Proudmoore, etc.) tend to be the exceptions, while it's the opposite for the Horde, where it's individual members like Thrall, Saurfang, or Baine who are attempting to change the Horde's seemingly fundamental nature.

You need to read the Arthas novel. Evil was always lurking inside Arthas. Stratholme and Frostmourne just made it more obvious.

[Syegfryed]

In-story Thrall got off to a good start but built it on a foundation of quick sand by putting the orcs in a desert deliberately to teach them a lesson about green guilt.

and that was rly an odd turn that blizzard went, in WC3 he chose that place because it looked like Draenor(and i don't even know how he knew, maybe stories?), and in Frozen throne the place was fine, i mean, fine with resources

[Varodoc]

You ponies should all go play for the Alliance and do what you do best - sniff flowers, play merry-go-round and rape each other gently in asses in Goldshire.


Being heroic is not as fun when everyone does it. Give me contrasts, give me struggle, not a damn "we fight to protect Azeroth side by side though we may have (irrelevant) differences" bullshit.
[Infraction]

Then play another game. This has been the main theme of Warcraft since WC3, when all races banded together despite their differences and defeated the Burning Legion. Very clearly you don't like the Warcraft franchise.

[Thage]

His time in Northrend was a huge success. He managed to both continue attack on the Alliance and the Scourge.

His time in Northrend was only a success because we kept fixing his problems for him, and because the plot in The Shattering told rather than showed us he was popular and successful.

His 'allies' didn't need to like him, but serve. It is not Garrosh's fault that racial readers turned out to be secret tumblrettas.

I never said anything about liking him. I said his behavior caused them to lose trust in him which is a significantly worse problem for a leader of a multinational coalition to deal with. If your subordinates don't trust you, they're going to turn on you unless you give them a reason to trust you. Ultimately, the Warchief's power relied on the approval and support of their underlings, as we've seen twice now with Garrosh deposed via popular revolution and Sylvanas played into outing herself robbing her of the Horde's goodwill.

His reign wasn't disastrous, it was a golden age for the Horde. New lands and resources.

Most of those new lands were gained by the two factions that ruined those lands almost immediately, and most of those resources were used up fueling the war that started over resources in the first place. The Horde was still hurting for resources and farmable land when the Pandaren Campaign began, and the Alliance and Horde largely prevented either from making any meaningful headway into securing land and resources on Pandaria (a good indicator of how little shit gets done without the Adventurer around to babysit their respective faction, since we were busy actually getting things done elsewhere).

Garrosh did nothing wrong.

Blindly reasserting a lie doesn't make it the truth.

[Super Kami Dende]

I just think he was naive, mostly in thinking that Savages would ever change. Since as soon as he left the next person to suggest Genocide and War was followed pretty easily.

[Fetus Rex]

His time in Northrend was only a success because we kept fixing his problems for him, and because the plot in The Shattering told rather than showed us he was popular and successful.

I never said anything about liking him. I said his behavior caused them to lose trust in him which is a significantly worse problem for a leader of a multinational coalition to deal with. If your subordinates don't trust you, they're going to turn on you unless you give them a reason to trust you. Ultimately, the Warchief's power relied on the approval and support of their underlings, as we've seen twice now with Garrosh deposed via popular revolution and Sylvanas played into outing herself robbing her of the Horde's goodwill.

Most of those new lands were gained by the two factions that ruined those lands almost immediately, and most of those resources were used up fueling the war that started over resources in the first place. The Horde was still hurting for resources and farmable land when the Pandaren Campaign began, and the Alliance and Horde largely prevented either from making any meaningful headway into securing land and resources on Pandaria (a good indicator of how little shit gets done without the Adventurer around to babysit their respective faction, since we were busy actually getting things done elsewhere).

Blindly reasserting a lie doesn't make it the truth.

That's what underlings are for. And it was one case of a problem in Boreal Tundra. A lot of lore coms from the books. He is strategy and tactic hero genius who claimed Northrend campaign for the Horde.

They don't need to trust him. There is Blood Oath for a reason. Not that there were reasons to not trust him. Killing enemies is hardly a bad thing.

The most important gains happened in Ashenvale, much needed wood, food and water comes from there. Just not enough. Of course all of it is Thrall's fault for setting in a shitty place like Durotar. Fixing it requires a lot of war work.

Garrosh did nothing wrong.

[RadasNoir]

How is massacring all of Stratholme being a decent guy? Arthas slaughtered an entire city before he even picked up Fostmourne. The spoiled evil attitude happened long before he went Scourge himself. Stop the delusion.

You need to read the Arthas novel. Evil was always lurking inside Arthas. Stratholme and Frostmourne just made it more obvious.

When I said "up until the whole thing with the Scourge", I was including his battles with the Scourge while still a paladin, but I suppose I should have specified.

And again, while I haven't read the novel, I figured it was safe to assume that they made it seem like there was already something lurking below the surface.

Even then, my point still stands. Lurking darkness or not, Arthas still came across as a mostly decent person up until the fight with the Scourge, and the whispers from the original Lich King, started to take their toll. Meanwhile, Gul'dan was a bad apple from the get go, it didn't take much for him to convince other Horde leaders to follow him down a dark path, and the Orcs have a tendency toward bloodthirsty warmongering even without demonic corruption as an excuse.

[Thage]

That's what underlings are for. And it was one case of a problem in Boreal Tundra. A lot of lore coms from the books. He is strategy and tactic hero genius who claimed Northrend campaign for the Horde.

Garrosh's massive blunders in Borean Tundra aside, as Overlord of the Warsong Offensive he was responsible for picking the commanders in Howling Fjord, Grizzly Hills, and Icecrown. Krenna lost control of the situation in Grizzly Hills so badly her own sister killed her in a mak'gora to prevent the Horde there from rioting.

They don't need to trust him. There is Blood Oath for a reason. Not that there were reasons to not trust him. Killing enemies is hardly a bad thing.

Either you're being dense on purpose or reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. This began because I noted his interpersonal skills were a problem that damaged his allies' trust in him. His lack of people skills caused him to fail to properly deescalate things with Cairne and to trust Magatha Grimtotem, known schemer who was already widely suspected of poisoning her mate to secure his position for herself, as his shaman in the mak'gora. His lack of people skills led to multiple clashes with Baine, who was providing Orgrimmar with badly-needed water after the goblins destroyed Orgrimmar's water supplies both in Durotar and Azshara. His lack of people skills incited Vol'jin enough for Vol'jin to make a death threat and leave Orgrimmar (only to later regret that he let Garrosh get under his skin so badly). The only situation where his lack of interpersonal understanding worked in his favor was with Sylvanas, who he still failed to properly oversee and thus was allowed to do things that even he called an abomination, in part because his appointed overseer, Cromush, was weak and ineffectual.

Also, if you think anyone rational is going to put an oath above the well-being of their people, you don't understand people.

The most important gains happened in Ashenvale, much needed wood, food and water comes from there. Just not enough. Of course all of it is Thrall's fault for setting in a shitty place like Durotar. Fixing it requires a lot of war work.

Honestly, if Thrall were more proactive (remember how in my first post I noted Thrall picking Durotar was a bad idea born of significant misunderstandings of what the orcs wanted/needed) he would have worked with the Horde's druids and shamans, and possibly the night elves (if he had the sack to rein in the Warsong and establish proper diplomatic channels) to get an actual ecosystem going on in Durotar that could support farmable land and a sustainable water supply. However, Durotar's problems were exacerbated by the goblins being allowed by Garrosh to pollute Orgrimmar's water sources, which necessitated shipments from Mulgore and raiding Ashenvale.

Even then, the game is intentionally mum on how much actual progress in Ashenvale was kept. A lot of the new 1-60 experience shows Horde blitzing Alliance territory only to get pushed back in the counterattack. And again, most of the resources the Horde obtained were immediately used up perpetuating the war that began to secure more resources, keeping the Horde in a downward spiral for most of the Cataclysm resource wars and the Pandaren Campaign.

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And again, while I haven't read the novel, I figured it was safe to assume that they made it seem like there was already something lurking below the surface..

In fairness, Arthas wasn't necessarily evil until he suffered multiple mental breaks during the Scourging of Lordaeron, going mad with desperation and helpless fury (and the Culling marked his fall from grace, but there were several moments where he was on the cusp of redemption only to fall again).

His big issue was that ultimately, he was a coward who ran from his problems when they became too much to handle. And he couldn't run from the Scourging, which caused him to crack instead.

[Super Dickmann]

and that was rly an odd turn that blizzard went, in WC3 he chose that place because it looked like Draenor(and i don't even know how he knew, maybe stories?), and in Frozen throne the place was fine, i mean, fine with resources

It was a retcon, flatly so, though I don't mind it too much - the groundwork for it was already laid over in Wrath, and even in Vanilla with the Warsong having to raid to get lumber and Thrall tacitly allowing it because Durotar was visibly fairly crap. The main reason it was done was because if the orcs had a more or less sustainable land, a leader who was unchallenged and loved who also got along with the other faction and the trolls and tauren were their mini-mes, then no conflict would take place and things would get very stale, very fast. It was a necessary change that enabled further stories being told and made Thrall a better character and more organic than things like making him tolerant of slavery or appointing Gallywix.

[Fetus Rex]

Garrosh's massive blunders in Borean Tundra aside, as Overlord of the Warsong Offensive he was responsible for picking the commanders in Howling Fjord, Grizzly Hills, and Icecrown. Krenna lost control of the situation in Grizzly Hills so badly her own sister killed her in a mak'gora to prevent the Horde there from rioting.

Either you're being dense on purpose or reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. This began because I noted his interpersonal skills were a problem that damaged his allies' trust in him. His lack of people skills caused him to fail to properly deescalate things with Cairne and to trust Magatha Grimtotem, known schemer who was already widely suspected of poisoning her mate to secure his position for herself, as his shaman in the mak'gora. His lack of people skills led to multiple clashes with Baine, who was providing Orgrimmar with badly-needed water after the goblins destroyed Orgrimmar's water supplies both in Durotar and Azshara. His lack of people skills incited Vol'jin enough for Vol'jin to make a death threat and leave Orgrimmar (only to later regret that he let Garrosh get under his skin so badly). The only situation where his lack of interpersonal understanding worked in his favor was with Sylvanas, who he still failed to properly oversee and thus was allowed to do things that even he called an abomination, in part because his appointed overseer, Cromush, was weak and ineffectual.

Also, if you think anyone rational is going to put an oath above the well-being of their people, you don't understand people.

Honestly, if Thrall were more proactive (remember how in my first post I noted Thrall picking Durotar was a bad idea born of significant misunderstandings of what the orcs wanted/needed) he would have worked with the Horde's druids and shamans, and possibly the night elves (if he had the sack to rein in the Warsong and establish proper diplomatic channels) to get an actual ecosystem going on in Durotar that could support farmable land and a sustainable water supply. However, Durotar's problems were exacerbated by the goblins being allowed by Garrosh to pollute Orgrimmar's water sources, which necessitated shipments from Mulgore and raiding Ashenvale.

Even then, the game is intentionally mum on how much actual progress in Ashenvale was kept. A lot of the new 1-60 experience shows Horde blitzing Alliance territory only to get pushed back in the counterattack. And again, most of the resources the Horde obtained were immediately used up perpetuating the war that began to secure more resources, keeping the Horde in a downward spiral for most of the Cataclysm resource wars and the Pandaren Campaign.

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In fairness, Arthas wasn't necessarily evil until he suffered multiple mental breaks during the Scourging of Lordaeron, going mad with desperation and helpless fury (and the Culling marked his fall from grace, but there were several moments where he was on the cusp of redemption only to fall again).

His big issue was that ultimately, he was a coward who ran from his problems when they became too much to handle. And he couldn't run from the Scourging, which caused him to crack instead.

They weren't that bad. Overall, as novel states his was overwhelming positive contribution there. Few quests won't change that.

Actually, he should have allowed Kor'kron to kill Cairne on the spot, the moment he assaulted his Warchief. He was too kind. Bane was and is just a weak willed traitor. Vol'jin should have been executed after threatening his Warchief, another case of Garrosh's kindness. Garrosh didn't lack interpersonnal skills, the others were too dim(twitter poisoning I think). Some idealistic bullshit writing comes like tides in W universe. He didn't need to deescalate shit, they needed to know their place and grovel like bitches they are. He could have ordered the murder of all the Alliance druids, their kids and their puppies and Cairne should have accepted that. Those aren't people but many different honorbound fantasy species. Or rather honorless at this point of time.

Yes, Thrall was, is and will always be a wimp. Garrosh did what was necessary.

Of course, that's the Horde's way. Overall they were better fed and watered during war than peace. The ultimate goal was always physical extermination of the Alliance species.

He did nothing wrong.

[RadasNoir]

In fairness, Arthas wasn't necessarily evil until he suffered multiple mental breaks during the Scourging of Lordaeron, going mad with desperation and helpless fury (and the Culling marked his fall from grace, but there were several moments where he was on the cusp of redemption only to fall again).

His big issue was that ultimately, he was a coward who ran from his problems when they became too much to handle. And he couldn't run from the Scourging, which caused him to crack instead.

Yeah, again, that was kinda my point.

From everything that we know about Gul'dan, on the other hand, he's always been a power-hungry asshole without a single shred of decency. Arthas, however, may have actually had a chance to be a good person, if he made better choices or not been put into a position to make such harrowing choices to begin with. I just don't think the two are comparable.

[Thage]

They weren't that bad. Overall, as novel states his was overwhelming positive contribution there. Few quests won't change that.

The novel said he was popular among the troops and wasn't a total fuckup. That is a far cry from his contributions being overwhelmingly positive.

Actually, he should have allowed Kor'kron to kill Cairne on the spot, the moment he assaulted his Warchief. He was too kind. Bane was and is just a weak willed traitor. Vol'jin should have been executed after threatening his Warchief, another case of Garrosh's kindness. Garrosh didn't lack interpersonnal skills, the others were too dim(twitter poisoning I think). Some idealistic bullshit writing comes like tides in W universe. He didn't need to deescalate shit, they needed to know their place and grovel like bitches they are. He could have ordered the murder of all the Alliance druids, their kids and their puppies and Cairne should have accepted that. Those aren't people but many different honorbound fantasy species. Or rather honorless at this point of time.

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that things happen in a vacuum, or that because fantasy characters are not real, they shouldn't be written with actual personalities, opinions, ethics, and beliefs. Regardless, it's obvious that you don't actually care to examine why people do what they do, because that's too complex for your liking. As you said, you'd prefer everyone be written as blindly-authoritarian bootlickers instead of people in a multinational coalition for whom oaths of honor have been regularly strained, forcing that coalition to reexamine how it runs itself given its power structure invariably gives way to mad tyrants taking over.

Yes, Thrall was, is and will always be a wimp. Garrosh did what was necessary.

Garrosh took the easy way out. It's easy to send a bunch of warriors off to die while you tell everyone at home how awful the other guys are. And as seen in his letter to Magatha, Garrosh doesn't hurt for skill in propaganda. While he doesn't bear sole culpability here, again the Horde only sought to stripmine the forests for short-term benefit; at no point were the orcs shown seeding new trees to ensure long-term access to lumber in their held territory within Ashenvale.

Of course, that's the Horde's way. Overall they were better fed and watered during war than peace. The ultimate goal was always physical extermination of the Alliance species.

At no point prior to going mad during the Pandaren Campaign was Garrosh's goal 'extermination.' Even Theramore was largely carried out in such a way to minimize civilian casualties and more about sending a message and damaging the Alliance's ability to make quick forays into Horde territory via the road to the Barrens, than about wiping people out. One could argue his goal was never about extermination up until he got his hands on Y'shaarj's heart, rather that it was about Horde dominance as a global superpower.

Also, of course the Horde is going to be better-fed and -watered during war if no effort is made to establish sustainable farming, access to water supplies that aren't polluted by goblins and undead, and an actual economy built around more than wartime production. Garrosh's biggest failure as Warchief is that he made no effort at all to build the Horde a sustainable economic model or to ensure the Horde had reliable, long-term access to food, water, and lumber. There's only so much forest they can go to war and raid over, what happens when those run out and the Horde did nothing to seed new trees? Will the Horde just suddenly not need lumber anymore because they can't go steal it?

He did nothing wrong.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Fetus Rex]

The novel said he was popular among the troops and wasn't a total fuckup. That is a far cry from his contributions being overwhelmingly positive.

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that things happen in a vacuum, or that because fantasy characters are not real, they shouldn't be written with actual personalities, opinions, ethics, and beliefs. Regardless, it's obvious that you don't actually care to examine why people do what they do, because that's too complex for your liking. As you said, you'd prefer everyone be written as blindly-authoritarian bootlickers instead of people in a multinational coalition for whom oaths of honor have been regularly strained, forcing that coalition to reexamine how it runs itself given its power structure invariably gives way to mad tyrants taking over.

Garrosh took the easy way out. It's easy to send a bunch of warriors off to die while you tell everyone at home how awful the other guys are. And as seen in his letter to Magatha, Garrosh doesn't hurt for skill in propaganda. While he doesn't bear sole culpability here, again the Horde only sought to stripmine the forests for short-term benefit; at no point were the orcs shown seeding new trees to ensure long-term access to lumber in their held territory within Ashenvale.

At no point prior to going mad during the Pandaren Campaign was Garrosh's goal 'extermination.' Even Theramore was largely carried out in such a way to minimize civilian casualties and more about sending a message and damaging the Alliance's ability to make quick forays into Horde territory via the road to the Barrens, than about wiping people out. One could argue his goal was never about extermination up until he got his hands on Y'shaarj's heart, rather that it was about Horde dominance as a global superpower.

Also, of course the Horde is going to be better-fed and -watered during war if no effort is made to establish sustainable farming, access to water supplies that aren't polluted by goblins and undead, and an actual economy built around more than wartime production. Garrosh's biggest failure as Warchief is that he made no effort at all to build the Horde a sustainable economic model or to ensure the Horde had reliable, long-term access to food, water, and lumber. There's only so much forest they can go to war and raid over, what happens when those run out and the Horde did nothing to seed new trees? Will the Horde just suddenly not need lumber anymore because they can't go steal it?


Whatever helps you sleep at night.

To him are attributecd victories. He is called a hero.

Quite the opposite. What you have described sounds like idealistic drivel that has very little to do with real politics. WoW characters are a bunch of care bears plushies who sometimes trigger their 'we care' sound effect, often after their leader is successful in murdering their enemies. Tyrants rule the words. It's the only working way.

It was the best way. First things first, you don't plan trees when you drown the soil in blood.

Considering how outraged the carebears were after Theramore bombing, I'm not surprised Garrosh didn't go full mayhem before. Dominance ultimately would require extermination. Peaceful coexistence is simply impossible. Shame Blizzard lacks the courage to write good stuff.

Wars need to be won firstly. Then they can start planting.

He did nothing wrong.

[bulutooth23]

should have left the throne to Vol'jin before Garosh. damn green jesus

[Grazrug]

Garrosh screwed up big time. His fans just can't accept it

[Soon-TM]

should have left the throne to Vol'jin before Garosh. damn green jesus

In all honesty, Thrall has !@$&ed it up several times by now, and badly so. Him still being loved by a sizeable part of the in-game Horde is simply bonkers at this point.

[Super Dickmann]

In all honesty, Thrall has !@$&ed it up several times by now, and badly so. Him still being loved by a sizeable part of the in-game Horde is simply bonkers at this point.

I mean, he wasn't. Rando orc grunts were ready and active in trying to kill him and Sadfang back in 8.2 and even he's lost faith in himself. The way Thrall's relationship with the Horde was treated past his messiah phase in WC3 has always baffled me in how successfully it's avoided the gaping pitfalls that characterize say, Anduin. When Thrall means well and fucks up, the narrative more or less treats it like it. When he's discredited as a leader, he doesn't take back over, he's trusted as a wise and experienced source, but not someone who should be in charge.

[Ielenia]

Well here is how it went abridged style. Thrall: Garrosh you are in charge, the others will help you. Garrosh: I don't want to lead. Other Horde Leaders: We don't want him either. Thrall: I'm out have fun! Garrosh: Well fuck, so uhhh what should we do then? Other Horde Leaders: Fuck off. You ain't my Warchief. I KILL YOU! Garrosh activates stubborn rage mode, shit goes down hill real fast. Thrall comes back: What the fuck man how did you fuck up so badly?

Really? Because the only Horde leader I recall being against Cairne to the point you're implying they were was Vol'Jin. Cairne was cool with Garrosh, even impressed with his ability to lead back in Warsong Hold. He only challenged Garrosh to Mak'Gora when he was mistakenly led to believe the orc sanctioned the death of innocent druids, when it was actually done by the Twilight Hammer.

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I can't imagine immediately handing off the mantle of Warchief to someone else would go over well in orcish society.

I don't think there's a problem in that.

There's also not a whole lot of room to listen to advisors that challenge you to Mak'gora over something you didn't actually do. Not that I think Garrosh would have turned out differently had Cairne not opposed him.

Yeah, I don't think Garrosh really tried to explain to Cairne that he did not order their deaths. And I don't think Cairne is such a hot-head to the point of killing a man when he's aware of a potential possibility that he's truly innocent.

Thrall was, of course, irresponsible for ever appointing Garrosh as Warchief, though I think he knew Garrosh was what the orcs wanted at the time.

If Thrall believed that, he either: a) wanted this war to happen, as he knew "how close the apple fell from the tree" with Garrosh; or b) he's dumb enough to not really know what his people want even after so long leading them.

[Luxeley]

Idk if irresponsible is the right word, I think selfish might be a better word. Thrall wanted a private life, a family. More than anything else, that's what pulled him out of the picture and no living example to present them or challenge them with a better way, in his absence the Horde reverted back to it's natural tendencies. I guess you could more or less say both, but the fact is with the right leadership, the Horde can move on from their evil warlike ways. They've clearly demonstrated this in the past.

[Ardenaso]

- darkspear trolls, who had nothing to do with humans or the old alliance before, meaning no grudge; yes, the jungle trolls have a history with humans

literally in the first chapter in their debut shows they were being genocided by Kul Tirans