"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[Omedon]

And yet we're still in a situation for over 2 years now where several Azerite Armor traits have never been touched and others have been meta the whole expansion. HMMMMM.

Ok, and extending this idea to covenant abilities, after shadowlands they'll be useless, because everything before the most current expansion will be optional for veteran alts, and you'll still have potentially deprived your main of the aesthetic you wanted because you picked for skills that were only relevant for one expansion.

Aesthetic is forever. You will probably otherwise never be able to use the mounts, transmog, pets or whatever else among the evergreen aspects of the game you'll get from the aesthetic choice of your covenant. For me, that weighs heavier, far heavier than "for two years I might have the less-than-meta teleport flavor from the covenant I don't like!"

Now, if you don't expect there to BE another 4 years of functional society, I mean, I can't blame you in 2020, but that's another thread.

[Elias01]

And yet, it will happen. This has been an ongoing issue since the gearscore addon. Which came out in Wrath of the Lich King, nothing has fixed it in over a decade, this isn't going to fix it. People are going to remain stingy and the idiotic requirements are going to be even worse in Shadowlands.

- - - Updated - - -



And yet we're still in a situation for over 2 years now where several Azerite Armor traits have never been touched and others have been meta the whole expansion. HMMMMM.

Find guild, play with your friends or create your own group. I understand thats this is putting in effort and you are propably too lazy do any of that but try it for once. Pugs have to have demands otherwise you wouldnt get anything done. For every 1 low RIO player what can finish +15 there is 20 what cant thats why its used.

[Zyky]

Find guild, play with your friends or create your own group. I understand thats this is putting in effort and you are propably too lazy do any of that but try it for once. Pugs have to have demands otherwise you wouldnt get anything done. For every 1 low RIO player what can finish +15 there is 20 what cant thats why its used.

I mean you literally quoted me where I said I've gotten every Cutting Edge, I've achieved top M+ io scores for several seasons, and I'm a Multi-Class Multi-Gladiator. But you know, guess you have a reading problem. This is a serious issue and you trying to white knight Blizzard isn't going to fix the problem.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, and extending this idea to covenant abilities, after shadowlands they'll be useless, because everything before the most current expansion will be optional for veteran alts, and you'll still have potentially deprived your main of the aesthetic you wanted because you picked for skills that were only relevant for one expansion.

Aesthetic is forever. You will probably otherwise never be able to use the mounts, transmog, pets or whatever else among the evergreen aspects of the game you'll get from the aesthetic choice of your covenant. For me, that weighs heavier, far heavier than "for two years I might have the less-than-meta teleport flavor from the covenant I don't like!"

Now, if you don't expect there to BE another 4 years of functional society, I mean, I can't blame you in 2020, but that's another thread.

"It's only for an expansion" is a pretty piss poor excuse. Especially when Covenants are the main feature of the expansion. Read above, you trying to white knight a serious problem with a core feature is pretty idiotic.

[Omedon]

"It's only for an expansion" is a pretty piss poor excuse. Especially when Covenants are the main feature of the expansion. Read above, you trying to white knight a serious problem with a core feature is pretty idiotic.

I aint white-knighting anything. I've torn into the lore of BFA for two years, and was disappointed that whole time in the story of the expansion, but I also know that an expansion's flavors are extremely temporary, be they story or gameplay. Now maybe you don't play that kinda long game and I respect that decision, but with that decision, that choice, with that dedication to going "that deep" you must realize that gameplay ambition comes with a cost. This time that cost is a hard choice of logistics (temporary) over aesthetics (permanent). It's a valid choice.

People play the "non-meta" class as their mains all the time. Every time the flavor of the month shifts, 11 other classes are "less meta." We're all still here. If you wanna play at that level, the most capital-O optional that they absolutely do not lose any sleep not developing around, that is your choice.

There's that word again. Choice. That's where we're at. Make yours.

[dav5037]

This is a serious issue and you trying to white knight Blizzard isn't going to fix the problem.

Do you believe it is possible to have a semi-permanent player choice other than the current ones of race/class tied to player power in current wow? If not what do you tell the people who not only believe it is possible but also would enjoy the game more if more of these choices were present? I think this difference of opinion is the crux of the debate here, because what you see as a problem, some people see as a plus.

[Zyky]

I aint white-knighting anything. I've torn into the lore of BFA for two years, and was disappointed that whole time in the story of the expansion, but I also know that an expansion's flavors are extremely temporary, be they story or gameplay. Now maybe you don't play that kinda long game and I respect that decision, but with that decision, that choice, with that dedication to going "that deep" you must realize that gameplay ambition comes with a cost. This time that cost is a hard choice of logistics (temporary) over aesthetics (permanent). It's a valid choice.

People play the "non-meta" class as their mains all the time. Every time the flavor of the month shifts, 11 other classes are "less meta." We're all still here. If you wanna play at that level, the most capital-O optional that they absolutely do not lose any sleep not developing around, that is your choice.

There's that word again. Choice. That's where we're at. Make yours.

Except those people are consistently berated for it. Go look at the spec breakdown of 15+ keys for your proof.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you believe it is possible to have a semi-permanent player choice other than the current ones of race/class tied to player power in current wow? If not what do you tell the people who not only believe it is possible but also would enjoy the game more if more of these choices were present? I think this difference of opinion is the crux of the debate here, because what you see as a problem, some people see as a plus.

As a concept people see it as a plus, when it actually gets put into the game all these same people do is complain about it and complain about how other players are rejecting them for picking something sub-optimal. With the current state of the game and as long as there's websites creating these arbitrary values to dictate what skillful play is, then no I don't see impactful player choice ever being successful, especially when you're talking about power gains. Because there will always be a right answer and everything else will be viewed at as wrong.

[DemonDays]

I aint white-knighting anything. I've torn into the lore of BFA for two years, and was disappointed that whole time in the story of the expansion, but I also know that an expansion's flavors are extremely temporary, be they story or gameplay. Now maybe you don't play that kinda long game and I respect that decision, but with that decision, that choice, with that dedication to going "that deep" you must realize that gameplay ambition comes with a cost. This time that cost is a hard choice of logistics (temporary) over aesthetics (permanent). It's a valid choice.

People play the "non-meta" class as their mains all the time. Every time the flavor of the month shifts, 11 other classes are "less meta." We're all still here. If you wanna play at that level, the most capital-O optional that they absolutely do not lose any sleep not developing around, that is your choice.

There's that word again. Choice. That's where we're at. Make yours.

You are very clearly White Knighting. You have a history of doing so.

Talents are horribly unbalanced and haven't been touched in 2 years.

Azerite traits are horribly unbalanced and only a select 2-3 are viable. They have barely been touched in 2 years.

Essences are horribly unbalanced and have barely been touched.

Corruptions are horribly fucking unbalanced and received minor balance adjustments.

Legiondaries were horribly fucking balanced and received very minor balance adjustments. People used the same ones for 2 years.




Sorry to say champ. But Blizzard has a well documented history of HORRIBLY balancing all of their PRIMARY features.

This shit is four fucking abilities across THIRTY SIX specs. It is an unmitigated balancing disaster waiting to happen. It will NEVER be balanced.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you believe it is possible to have a semi-permanent player choice other than the current ones of race/class tied to player power in current wow? If not what do you tell the people who not only believe it is possible but also would enjoy the game more if more of these choices were present? I think this difference of opinion is the crux of the debate here, because what you see as a problem, some people see as a plus.

Yes. If Blizzard was a better game design company who found a way to fine tune 4 abilities across 36 specs.

So the answer is a hard No. Because we are talking about Blizzard here and they have a long running track record of horrible balance and leaving things like that for the entirety of the expansion cycle.



This system will never be balanced. It will be exactly what Shadowlands is remembered for. For all the wrong reasons.

- - - Updated - - -

Find guild, play with your friends or create your own group. I understand thats this is putting in effort and you are propably too lazy do any of that but try it for once. Pugs have to have demands otherwise you wouldnt get anything done. For every 1 low RIO player what can finish +15 there is 20 what cant thats why its used.

Please stop making excuses.

Zyky is a well documented Havoc DH discord member, guide writer and theory crafter. He plays at the highest level of the game in literally all facets of it. Mythic raiding, Mythic+ and PvP.

The dude is better than you, in all facets of the game. End of story.

- - - Updated - - -

Abilities are nerfed. Aesthetic is forever. Sounds like you should go Necrolord. Also, alts. Shadowlands isn't BFA, and aside from some unnecessary complexity and alt unfriendliness in mid to late BFA... WoW has been the "you should have alts" game for years now. Alts are how you "have your cake and eat it too" with covenants.

No. They aren't.

Blizzard has a well documented track record of horrible balance.

[Omedon]

Blizzard has a well documented track record of horrible balance.

Or maybe, just maybe... you're taking this element more seriously than you're intended to. Look, world firsts happen. MDI happens. Those people work within this horrible balance as pro players at the top level. Clearly they "do the work." That doesn't sound fun to me at all, but it's there, it's happening, it's documented. No matter how badly Blizzard messes up, these people make it work.

It works for them. It works for someone. Fact. Predecent. It's a crazy way to play, but the path is there, it's the actual opposite of the path of least resistance, but it's there. Walk it if you want. Or don't, and face the game that the rest of us do. The game where there's a point where it's not worth it to worry over the next 1%. The unbalanced one that's top of its class. Leave feedback, of course, but realize they have a vision, and they can allocate balancing as they see fit. Reasonable people play that game, and enjoy it, or don't and quit.

Do one of those, or do the work that the actual top players do, the ones that will make covenants work, mark my words. Do that, or be miserable pretending you're one of those players, without doing the work.

Someone will make the hard calls to be the top, will you be one of them? I kinda hope you go with what covenant fits your character concept but that's my criteria, and might not be yours. That's ok, but accept the consequences of that choice.

[dav5037]

Except those people are consistently berated for it. Go look at the spec breakdown of 15+ keys for your proof.

- - - Updated - - -



As a concept people see it as a plus, when it actually gets put into the game all these same people do is complain about it and complain about how other players are rejecting them for picking something sub-optimal. With the current state of the game and as long as there's websites creating these arbitrary values to dictate what skillful play is, then no I don't see impactful player choice ever being successful, especially when you're talking about power gains. Because there will always be a right answer and everything else will be viewed at as wrong.

There is no denying that some people 'think they do but they don't' when it comes to this stuff. But there are also players, myself included, who know exactly what they'd be getting into and still believe it makes a better game in the long run. I would rather try to change the mentality you're describing which it seems based on your tone you agree is bad for the game. I would be interested to see systems implemented to actively combat this mentality though that may be taking it too far. Really they can play the game however they want the only time it's frustrating is when I see potential for things like coupling player power and choice which I would enjoy and yet may get shot down in order to work around players having this mentality

[Luhnatic]

You're forgetting one key point here : Covenants are not just about abilities.

They are whole campaigns (time gated), they are tied to a covenant hall (with 'mission' table progression), and there is soulbind progression (some form of talent tree with multiple choices) that unlocks as you farm for your covenant (some form of daily stuff). It's a whole gameplay experience.

It's not just about your raiding and pvp and mythic+.

Beeing able to switch would mean having to keep up with all those things, and would be a real chore for a vast majority of players. If it's easy to switch, those players would be EXPECTED by the community to keep up their progression or be rejected because they are sub-optimal. They would have NO CHOICE, they would have to do it all, and that's why this hard-locked choice is seen as a plus : it will remove expectations.

You can't really compare this situation with BFA, because it's so easy currently to switch whatever decision you made to something else.

For people that excel in every aspect of the game, well, it will be harder to keep up.

On a side note, i'm more concerned about 'let loot be loot', with BiS list which make everything not on the list 'absolute garbage'. But that's another topic

Luhnatic la~

[Seramore]

Or maybe, just maybe... you're taking this element more seriously than you're intended to. Look, world firsts happen. MDI happens. Those people work within this horrible balance as pro players at the top level. Clearly they "do the work." That doesn't sound fun to me at all, but it's there, it's happening, it's documented. No matter how badly Blizzard messes up, these people make it work.

It works for them. It works for someone. Fact. Predecent. It's a crazy way to play, but the path is there, it's the actual opposite of the path of least resistance, but it's there. Walk it if you want. Or don't, and face the game that the rest of us do. The game where there's a point where it's not worth it to worry over the next 1%. The unbalanced one that's top of its class. Leave feedback, of course, but realize they have a vision, and they can allocate balancing as they see fit. Reasonable people play that game, and enjoy it, or don't and quit.

Do one of those, or do the work that the actual top players do, the ones that will make covenants work, mark my words. Do that, or be miserable pretending you're one of those players, without doing the work.

Someone will make the hard calls to be the top, will you be one of them? I kinda hope you go with what covenant fits your character concept but that's my criteria, and might not be yours. That's ok, but accept the consequences of that choice.

Item level should generally tell you if an item is an upgrade. I think what we’d consider success is a 15 item level upgrade would be always be worth equipping, no matter what. We want it to be clear when an upgrade is an upgrade.

[DemonDays]

Or maybe, just maybe... you're taking this element more seriously than you're intended to. Look, world firsts happen. MDI happens. Those people work within this horrible balance as pro players at the top level. Clearly they "do the work." That doesn't sound fun to me at all, but it's there, it's happening, it's documented. No matter how badly Blizzard messes up, these people make it work.

It works for them. It works for someone. Fact. Predecent. It's a crazy way to play, but the path is there, it's the actual opposite of the path of least resistance, but it's there. Walk it if you want. Or don't, and face the game that the rest of us do. The game where there's a point where it's not worth it to worry over the next 1%. The unbalanced one that's top of its class. Leave feedback, of course, but realize they have a vision, and they can allocate balancing as they see fit. Reasonable people play that game, and enjoy it, or don't and quit.

Do one of those, or do the work that the actual top players do, the ones that will make covenants work, mark my words. Do that, or be miserable pretending you're one of those players, without doing the work.

Someone will make the hard calls to be the top, will you be one of them? I kinda hope you go with what covenant fits your character concept but that's my criteria, and might not be yours. That's ok, but accept the consequences of that choice.

There you go White Knighting again. What a huge amount of words to say nothing at all related to the discussion. But I'll bite anyway.


You Blizzboys are always parroting about subjective opinion and all that other jazz.

Who are you to tell me to play the game a certain way?

What if I enjoy competing against my friends on the meters in our casual Heroic raids? What if that is what I enjoy?

Blizzards WELL DOCUMENTED horrendous balance hinders mine and many others enjoyment. They will never balance Covenants properly. End of story.

[shade3891]

I see 0. Becouse you picking abillity A becouse its best abillity for situation A isnt choice its just you following website telling to pick this and that.

I don't need a website to tell me what is best.. I can perfectly see that for myself. For most classes there are really some clear winners, and because those abilities are so good and I don't want to gimp myself I feel like I have to pick those.

I really do hope the Soulbinds will balance them out more, but looking at Blizards track record with new systems I highly doubt it.

[Zyky]

There is no denying that some people 'think they do but they don't' when it comes to this stuff. But there are also players, myself included, who know exactly what they'd be getting into and still believe it makes a better game in the long run. I would rather try to change the mentality you're describing which it seems based on your tone you agree is bad for the game. I would be interested to see systems implemented to actively combat this mentality though that may be taking it too far. Really they can play the game however they want the only time it's frustrating is when I see potential for things like coupling player power and choice which I would enjoy and yet may get shot down in order to work around players having this mentality

Except your mentality is the minority. These kinds of systems effect raiders, M+ players, and arena players at a fundamental level. There is a singular right option and three wrong options, that's really the bottom line. Unfortunately there is nothing PLAYERS can do to change that, that's on Blizzard to stop adding all these systems that certainly effect players who participate in their content at the core level of the game.

[Makorus]

I hope Blizzard does this every expansion just because I like seeing Hardcore (aka Heroic) Raiders go apeshit because they cant minmax in everything.

Funny as fuck. Maybe put your calculator away and actually play the game lmao

[VinceVega]

I hope Blizzard does this every expansion just because I like seeing Hardcore (aka Heroic) Raiders go apeshit because they cant minmax in everything.

Funny as fuck. Maybe put your calculator away and actually play the game lmao

What does it concern you anyway? If players can choose aestehtics and abilities seperate you can still choose whatever the hell you want and you still have a choice.

Sometimes these threads about the covenants seem to be just about a hate boner for people who like to play on a higher level because gues what: They have fun with it. You take away something from players who like min/maxing while simultaniously not gaining anything you would not have done anyway...

[Makorus]

What does it concern you anyway? If players can choose aestehtics and abilities seperate you can still choose whatever the hell you want and you still have a choice.

Sometimes these threads about the covenants seem to be just about a hate boner for people who like to play on a higher level because gues what: They have fun with it. You take away something from players who like min/maxing while simultaniously not gaining anything you would not have done anyway...

Oh, I used to do Mythic raids, but at some point I realized that min maxing is just no fun, especially because its not mandatory at all.

Does anyone actually like minmaxing? Doubt it. They like the effect of it, sure, but if they could choose between the best looking armor in the game, and +2 int, they feel like they have to take the int. This is why I welcome the covenant stuff. You are literally unable to min max. Sure, your covenant might be better single target, but guess what, raids arent only single-target etc.etc.

[WowIsDead64]

I see terms like these being throw around way too much, like you won't get to choose the covenant you like.

This is pure bullshit. You can do whatever the hell you want. It won't cost you a raid spot, you can still do m+ and pugs won't spit on you.

Making permanent choices is a crucial part of the RPG experience. We should have more things like this so we could express ourselves and make our character unique from others of our class.

Yeah, both visual and power choices are important in RPG. Problem is - they're usually made separately. Mixing them - is really bad idea.

[LordVargK]

Oh, I used to do Mythic raids, but at some point I realized that min maxing is just no fun, especially because its not mandatory at all.

Does anyone actually like minmaxing? Doubt it. They like the effect of it, sure, but if they could choose between the best looking armor in the game, and +2 int, they feel like they have to take the int. This is why I welcome the covenant stuff. You are literally unable to min max. Sure, your covenant might be better single target, but guess what, raids arent only single-target etc.etc.

YOU don't like minmaxing. Other people do. In fact, I for one find the theoretical side of games often way more interesting than the actual game itself. Especially if the game makes it tedious to achieve my desired build and hinders my experimentation. Then playing the game becomes less fun than thinking about its potential. I liked snapshotting. I liked haste breakpoints for DoTs.
And I'm pretty casual too. I don't really care for armorstyles and weapons; since the "stoneinfication" in cata they mostly look like shit anyways. But I hate making permanent choices or the game making the reversal of a choice unnecessarily difficult. It just undermines my personal fun, while giving no advantage at all.

[Echocho]

Yeah, both visual and power choices are important in RPG. Problem is - they're usually made separately. Mixing them - is really bad idea.

I'd say that most of the time they go hand in hand. Daedric armor in the elder scrolls for example are both power and visuals. Racial abilities/stats in most RPGs means that if you want to minmax you may have to play a race that you don't find visually appealing.