If blizzard sold transmog sets in the shop

[Andonais]

It would be another core change to a 15 year old game people have played for 10-15 years essentially turning it into another game, which is one of WoW's big problems atm they have changed so much of the core they have driven away its player base and this would only further push that. I want to play WoW if I wanted a cash shop game I would play SWTOR or ESO.

[Gaidax]

I'd bait that for sure.

I think it's fine for them to churn more mounts and toys there, but mogs, I'd rather them not put there. BUT if they will, I'll buy whatever I like.

[Dalinos]

And that's the problem. EVERYONE had an expectation borne of a false sense of entitlement.

I mean, sure, it would have been wonderful to have the Sparkle Pony be a reward for killing Algalon, but the point you guys seem to miss is that WoW was entering a time where the number of subscribers to the game was starting to drop off. The writing was on the wall that the game was going to need to find ways of increasing its revenue stream in the face of declining sub numbers, find ways of cutting costs, or getting shut down entirely when they tried selling the idea of reducing profit margins to their shareholders.

Simply put, putting the Sparkle Pony onto the shop was the way they came up with to justify the existence of such things going forward.



Until you realise that the alternative is that they simply wouldn't exist at all, along with a bunch of other things that are available in game, that you're blissfully unaware owe their existence to the shop as well.

Since you're so positive that other in-game things have been funded by the shop, I would like a source for that, please. If this is proven to be fact, and not a wishful hypothesis, I might even consider changing my outlook on the online store. I'm an open-minded dude (just like all scientists), we are ready to shift our views and adapt/embrace new ways of thought, if and when adequate proof/evidence has been shown to support these.

Lastly, false sense of entitlement? Lol. Just lol. If beating the 2nd hardest boss in the game, that had limited attempts, and needed a full quest-line JUST to get the key to open his damn door, isn't a worthy enough achievement for you to being eligible for the Sparkle Pony, then I don't know what is. Ohwait, according to you, forking over 20 bucks is not a sense of entitlement, but being a damn good raider is.

[Raelbo]

Then they would have never been made. And that's fine.

How on earth is it better that those helmets were never been made?

1) What about the artists and devs who got to make them? Surely it's better for them to have a job doing something that they're clearly passionate about?
2) What about the people who got to enjoy having them?

Those 3 Tmog helmets have VERY obvious places, in-game, where they could've been placed as rewards. Off the top of my head, achievement name: "Who's the Lord of Fire now?" - requirement - "Defeat Ragnaros the Firelord in Firelands on 25man HC difficulty without a single member of the raid dying, and in X or less minutes" - reward, Firelord's helmet.

Apply the same to the other 2 helmets, and tell me, how cool would've that been?

No one is saying it wouldn't have been "cool". Of course it would have. I am saying that it's an unrealistic expectation given the economics of the situation. Making cool stuff for the game costs money. And that money has to come from somewhere. Blizzard are not a charity. Their developers don't work for free. And their shareholders expect returns. If they can't take care of those economic realities, there would be no game.

As such, there is a limit to how much cool stuff we can expect in the game based on what we pay for it, and those helms go beyond what we should be expecting without the game deriving revenue from the shop.

Items from the store are de-facto unobtainable in game. For someone like me, who vehemently opposes the whole notion of having an in-game store AND a sub-fee, the in-game store is non-existant. Therefore, those items don't even exist for me. Therefore, their removal would mean absolutely nothing to me.

And that would be fine if you chose to be ambivalent on the issue. Except you're not. You're arguing for their removal, and even punishing other players who do care about things. Which is pretty mean of you.

I'd much rather have 10% of the store-stuff in-game, obtainable, through various ways, than have 100% of the store available behind RL cash. It's not about being cheap, it's a matter of principle.

What makes you think that if you removed the shop, all you'd lose is 90% of the shop content? What makes you believe that for every shop item lost, we wouldn't lose 10 times that from in-game stuff?

Yes, I get that, for you, it's a matter of principle. But from where I am sitting it just looks like misguided zeal.

Your theory of POTENTIAL income that has been generated through the store and has been used in other facets of the game is cute, naive but also logical to a certain extent. It makes sense to re-invest the money generated in Development, and that should be the case...but something tells me it's not.

Paranoia maybe?

I like that you want to call me cute and naive, but honestly really, you're just making yourself look condescending and foolish. The simple fact is this: What I said makes logical sense. And that is all there is to it. The problem is that it doesn't fit your narrative of Blizzard being this big evil corporation out to screw the players that you want them to be.

The funny thing is that I am not trying to claim that Blizzard aren't greedy, or that they aren't motivated by their own self interest

Horrific Visions of N'zoth is one of the lamest cop-outs I have ever seen, in the sense that it re-uses the already-existing scenery of Stormwind and Orgrimmar. Sure, it's fun, sure, it's interesting, sure, it's tied to progression, but you can't deny that it's a cop-out. Instead of using the Visions of N'zoth to enter Nyal'otha and explore the Waking City, we explore and fight through...our 2 main city hubs. How original. That shit would not have flown back in the day, in the Blizzard of old. Hell, they got flak for releasing Trial of the Crusader, a raid with 1.5 rooms and 0 trash.

Again, I am getting this sense of entitlement from you....

Look, I am not going to disagree that I feel that Blizzard take too much profit from the game, and could be using those profits to put more into the game. But this has nothing to with the shop, because their profit margins have always been high, and all indications are that they would continue to be high even if the shop was removed altogether.

In short, the shop is the mechanism that they're using to prevent them from having to make a choice between sacrificing the profit margins (which I think you can agree will never happen) and cutting even more corners with development costs.

[Sagenod]

"I never experienced that, so it isn't an issue" is a really ignorant and stupid point of view, in case you weren't aware.

Someone's salty lol. You intentionally left out the part where I was implying that anyone who got kicked from a group because of a cosmetic helm was being trolled. The people who were doing that trolling were part of minority of the playerbase, whereas most people don't care what you've got transmogged. So the people who had an issue with the cosmetic helms don't matter, they're immature and best left on /ignore.

Think critically before you speak critically lol

[Venziir]

You do realise your, mine, everyone's subscription fee doesn't buy you anything in game, correct? The only thing our subscription fees give us is ACCESS to the servers. We don't even own our own accounts, they're owned by Blizzard, and they can ban us for any reason, or no reason at all, as we agreed to the EULA when we created our accounts.

Good job on dodging the question again. Tell me about the Bat mount. Tell me about the highest prestige items you've collected in this game (Glad mounts? Amani War Bear? MOP/WOD Challenge Mode mogs? Legion artifact skins? What DO you have that was was a reward from challenging content?).

But really, tell me about your thoughts on the Bat mount. Coveted and asked for since the beginning of WoW, since the first level 5 Forsaken players took a flightpath from Undercity to anywhere and rode on those beautiful Bats. Explain to me why the Bat mount is a reward for forking over 20 bucks instead of being a massive, in-game long quest chain, like it should've been, considering players were asking for it since time immemorial. Troll druids were ECSTATIC when it was revealed their Flight Form was a Bat. Yet, to obtain it, you gotta fork over 20 bucks.

The bat mount? Oh sure... I bought it and I also got the one from Arathi and the one from those 8.1 tokens. So I guess that means I have 3? I could try to get the IE bat too I guess. You seem to be bat obsessed, so here's the full list of bat mounts and don't worry; only on comes from the store! https://www.fadedandblurred.com/bat-mounts-wow/

As for my own "prestigous collection", I don't even know because I don't care about what other people consider prestigous. Never have; never will and it's been that way since the very first time I logged on back in november '04 for the EU closed beta. Though I do have the mage tower artifact skin if you'd like to know, I guess that's it though? Never bothered to get either MoP/WoD challenge sets because I thought they were either ugly or too much over the top for my taste.

And yes, I do realise that we do, indeed, buy access via my subscription. However, without said access you'd be very much unable to obtain whatever you consider prestigous, be it a mount or a hat. Biggest difference is, that you waste both time and money, where as anyone who uses the store only wastes money.

Besides, the store has now been a part of this game for over 10 years, ergo it has been a part of the game for over half its lifetime... It's not going anywhere. But by all means, carry on your crazy crusade.

- - - Updated - - -

Since you're so positive that other in-game things have been funded by the shop, I would like a source for that, please. If this is proven to be fact, and not a wishful hypothesis, I might even consider changing my outlook on the online store. I'm an open-minded dude (just like all scientists), we are ready to shift our views and adapt/embrace new ways of thought, if and when adequate proof/evidence has been shown to support these.

Lastly, false sense of entitlement? Lol. Just lol. If beating the 2nd hardest boss in the game, that had limited attempts, and needed a full quest-line JUST to get the key to open his damn door, isn't a worthy enough achievement for you to being eligible for the Sparkle Pony, then I don't know what is. Ohwait, according to you, forking over 20 bucks is not a sense of entitlement, but being a damn good raider is.

Oh yeah, nothing says "open-minded" like being "vehemetly" upset about what people do with their own money!

[Dalinos]

How on earth is it better that those helmets were never been made?

1) What about the artists and devs who got to make them? Surely it's better for them to have a job doing something that they're clearly passionate about?
2) What about the people who got to enjoy having them?



No one is saying it wouldn't have been "cool". Of course it would have. I am saying that it's an unrealistic expectation given the economics of the situation. Making cool stuff for the game costs money. And that money has to come from somewhere. Blizzard are not a charity. Their developers don't work for free. And their shareholders expect returns. If they can't take care of those economic realities, there would be no game.

As such, there is a limit to how much cool stuff we can expect in the game based on what we pay for it, and those helms go beyond what we should be expecting without the game deriving revenue from the shop.



And that would be fine if you chose to be ambivalent on the issue. Except you're not. You're arguing for their removal, and even punishing other players who do care about things. Which is pretty mean of you.



What makes you think that if you removed the shop, all you'd lose is 90% of the shop content? What makes you believe that for every shop item lost, we wouldn't lose 10 times that from in-game stuff?

Yes, I get that, for you, it's a matter of principle. But from where I am sitting it just looks like misguided zeal.




Paranoia maybe?

I like that you want to call me cute and naive, but honestly really, you're just making yourself look condescending and foolish. The simple fact is this: What I said makes logical sense. And that is all there is to it. The problem is that it doesn't fit your narrative of Blizzard being this big evil corporation out to screw the players that you want them to be.

The funny thing is that I am not trying to claim that Blizzard aren't greedy, or that they aren't motivated by their own self interest




Again, I am getting this sense of entitlement from you....

Look, I am not going to disagree that I feel that Blizzard take too much profit from the game, and could be using those profits to put more into the game. But this has nothing to with the shop, because their profit margins have always been high, and all indications are that they would continue to be high even if the shop was removed altogether.

In short, the shop is the mechanism that they're using to prevent them from having to make a choice between sacrificing the profit margins (which I think you can agree will never happen) and cutting even more corners with development costs.

Mate, I see your points, but I disagree with a bunch of them.

We used to get the COOLEST SHIT back in the day. Vanilla Tier-2 sets and Tier-3 sets looked AMAZING for the time. So did iconic weapons such as Staff of the Shadow Flame, Ash'Kandi, Greastsword of the Brotherhood, Grand Marshal/High Warlord gear, T6 in TBC, Warglaives of Azzinoth, Shadowmourne, Dragonwrath - Tarecgosa's Rest, Fangs of the Father...the list goes on and on and on.

Wanna know what all these iconic, 15yr old + models had in common?

They were difficult to obtain, they were unique, they were not for the masses and they did not COST EXTRA MONEYS.

Blizzard has proven that they can produce quality artwork, amazing models and unique textures WITHOUT relying on an in-game store for these things. Also, I would like to direct the question I gave Venziir, who conveniently hasn't responded yet.

Tell me about the Bat mount. I genuinely wanna hear your thoughts on this one.

[Venziir]

Mate, I see your points, but I disagree with a bunch of them.

We used to get the COOLEST SHIT back in the day. Vanilla Tier-2 sets and Tier-3 sets looked AMAZING for the time. So did iconic weapons such as Staff of the Shadow Flame, Ash'Kandi, Greastsword of the Brotherhood, Grand Marshal/High Warlord gear, T6 in TBC, Warglaives of Azzinoth, Shadowmourne, Dragonwrath - Tarecgosa's Rest, Fangs of the Father...the list goes on and on and on.

Wanna know what all these iconic, 15yr old + models had in common?

They were difficult to obtain, they were unique, they were not for the masses and they did not COST EXTRA MONEYS.

Blizzard has proven that they can produce quality artwork, amazing models and unique textures WITHOUT relying on an in-game store for these things. Also, I would like to direct the question I gave Venziir, who conveniently hasn't responded yet.

Tell me about the Bat mount. I genuinely wanna hear your thoughts on this one.

... Might wanna refresh the page kiddo.

[Dalinos]

"Oh yeah, nothing says "open-minded" like being "vehemetly" upset about what people do with their own money!"

Like I mentioned earlier, which you again conveniently chose to ignore, I don't care what people do with their money. What I do care is when business practices are supported, that I disagree with. And I will show my disdain for these people in any way the game allows me to - if the in-game store flopped on its release, it would not be here today.

[Venziir]

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Oh yeah, nothing says "open-minded" like being "vehemetly" upset about what people do with their own money!

Like I mentioned earlier, which you again conveniently chose to ignore, I don't care what people do with their money. What I do care is when business practices are supported, that I disagree with. And I will show my disdain for these people in any way the game allows me to - if the in-game store flopped on its release, it would not be here today.[/QUOTE]

Ahh "if the store flopped"... But it didn't so, point, set, match?

[Unknown182]

It already annoys me that so many of the more unique mounts are in the store whilst in game theres re-skin after re-skin. If WoW was F2P I'd understand them putting mogs and mounts on the store as their main source of revenue but since we still pay a sub fee its overkill.

The only option I'd begrudgingly allow would be if the in store mounts were also available to be obtained in the game if you dont want to pay upfront and save time.

[ntlntl]

What if they sell PAthfinder for gold? I would pay them 5 tokens just to fly. Those who don't want to buy can do it the old way

[Dalinos]

Like I mentioned earlier, which you again conveniently chose to ignore, I don't care what people do with their money. What I do care is when business practices are supported, that I disagree with. And I will show my disdain for these people in any way the game allows me to - if the in-game store flopped on its release, it would not be here today.

Ahh "if the store flopped"... But it didn't so, point, set, match?[/QUOTE]

You know, it's quite funny that you keep answering to every single post defending the existence of the store, yet if you skim through these 12 pages you'll find many more unique individuals that have the sentiment of "I wish these unique models were obtainable in-game and not on the store", compared to the same 3-5 people who defend the store. I think that says it all. Also, "point, set, match"? What is this, 5th grade P.E tennis? You seem to be obsessed with being right man.

[Venziir]

Ahh "if the store flopped"... But it didn't so, point, set, match?

You know, it's quite funny that you keep answering to every single post defending the existence of the store, yet if you skim through these 12 pages you'll find many more unique individuals that have the sentiment of "I wish these unique models were obtainable in-game and not on the store", compared to the same 3-5 people who defend the store. I think that says it all. Also, "point, set, match"? What is this, 5th grade P.E tennis? You seem to be obsessed with being right man.[/QUOTE]

I'm not defending anything, but I am trying to point out how absurd you are by going on a one-man crusade, lashing out at people who spend their money and something you find wrong. Your arguments are all nonsense tied up around "what if's".



... You know what, this is a waste of time. If you want to keep being a dick, while having a hard-on for 15 year old items (which were ugly as sin back then, just like they are today) and feeling high and mighty about how much sparetime you have go ahead; this is like trying to tell a fish how to climb a tree. Buh-bye!

[Raelbo]

Since you're so positive that other in-game things have been funded by the shop, I would like a source for that, please.

Dude, even if I got Ion to write me signed affidavit confirming that, yes, shop money is used to help fund development, I doubt you would believe anyway.

But analysis of the facts makes it pretty clear either way:

• WoW subscribers are down by more than 50% (maybe even 65%) since WoW peaked. Furthermore the cost of subs hasn't increased (to track with inflation) in 15 years.
• The game generates a bunch of money from the shop now
• The developers continue to put out content for the game, with little sign that the rate has been slowing over time (eg WoD was criticised for being light on content, but both Legion and BfA have output a lot more since)

Furthermore Blizzard have stated repeatedly that their WoW development team is as big as ever.

So, if their dev team hasn't shrunk, but their subscription revenue has, then where did they get the funds to keep spending on development if not from the shop??

If this is proven to be fact, and not a wishful hypothesis, I might even consider changing my outlook on the online store. I'm an open-minded dude (just like all scientists), we are ready to shift our views and adapt/embrace new ways of thought, if and when adequate proof/evidence has been shown to support these.

That's a cop-out, expecting some other authority to come and hand you the answer. As a scientist, look at the data you have and make a dispassionate assessment of my hypothesis. If you think you have a better hypothesis, I, as a fellow scientist, am open to hearing it.

Lastly, false sense of entitlement? Lol. Just lol. If beating the 2nd hardest boss in the game, that had limited attempts, and needed a full quest-line JUST to get the key to open his damn door, isn't a worthy enough achievement for you to being eligible for the Sparkle Pony, then I don't know what is. Ohwait, according to you, forking over 20 bucks is not a sense of entitlement, but being a damn good raider is.

Try walking into a McDonalds and demanding that they give you free fries with your burger because you're really good at eating burgers and see how far that gets you....


I am not disputing that the game should give cooler rewards to the players who are better and achieve more difficult feats. But that is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. WoW is still a product that costs money to make. So yes, how much you pay for it does, directly, affect how much you're entitled to get out of it.

- - - Updated - - -

We used to get the COOLEST SHIT back in the day. Vanilla Tier-2 sets and Tier-3 sets looked AMAZING for the time. So did iconic weapons such as Staff of the Shadow Flame, Ash'Kandi, Greastsword of the Brotherhood, Grand Marshal/High Warlord gear, T6 in TBC, Warglaives of Azzinoth, Shadowmourne, Dragonwrath - Tarecgosa's Rest, Fangs of the Father...the list goes on and on and on.

Wanna know what all these iconic, 15yr old + models had in common?

They were difficult to obtain, they were unique, they were not for the masses and they did not COST EXTRA MONEYS.

I can't say I've really seen a reduction in the amount of stuff we're getting in-game though (which makes sense given that the WoW dev team has actually grown over the years). It seems to me that your obsession with the shop and the things you can't get (because you don't want to spend money - fair enough) is blinding you to all the awesome stuff you can get.

For example, they may have removed tier sets in BfA, but their stated reason was that they wanted to use the people who would have made those armour sets to make other armour sets (hint: allied races and heritage armour).

Blizzard has proven that they can produce quality artwork, amazing models and unique textures WITHOUT relying on an in-game store for these things.

...when the game was new, at a time when they had a bigger (and still growing) subscriber base, and most of the people in the organisation were much earlier in the careers (and thus cost less in salaries).

I still don't understand this fantasy that Blizzard should be expected to continue to output the same quality/quantity without being able to compensate for loss of revenue.

Also, I would like to direct the question I gave Venziir, who conveniently hasn't responded yet.

Tell me about the Bat mount. I genuinely wanna hear your thoughts on this one.

Sounds to me like the shop made it possible. As you yourself said, people had been asking for it for years, long before the shop, and Blizzard clearly didn't have the available resources to make it a priority.

I thought you were trying to argue why the shop is terrible, not why it's great!

[CalamityHeart]

"Oh yeah, nothing says "open-minded" like being "vehemetly" upset about what people do with their own money!"

Like I mentioned earlier, which you again conveniently chose to ignore, I don't care what people do with their money. What I do care is when business practices are supported, that I disagree with. And I will show my disdain for these people in any way the game allows me to - if the in-game store flopped on its release, it would not be here today.

So you don't care what people do with their money, unless they're doing something with their money that you don't like. Am I understanding that right?

Because if I am, that's uh... that's cool! I, too despise people who spend their money on things that make them happy but don't make me happy (and is otherwise of absolutely no consequence to me). I'd punch them in the face if I could! How dare they.

Feel free to correct me, though. I'd rather not misunderstand you if you happened to spin that wrong.

I understand the sentiment of "I don't agree with the cash shop, so I'm not going to buy anything from it." I don't quite understand the sentiment of "I don't agree with the cash shop, so I'm going to aggressively harass anybody who uses it." I understand the sentiment of "Everything made for the game should be included in the game with the price of the game, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Would it be nice if everything was? Yeah, sure. But as long as that mog gear doesn't suddenly have crazy stats tied to them as well, then it's nothing more than an unintrusive thing for me to consider. Most of the stuff on the shop looks silly anyway, aside from the Eternal Traveller's set, which technically is an actual, ACTUAL paid-for mog that no one seems to want to acknowledge.

[Dalinos]

Dude, even if I got Ion to write me signed affidavit confirming that, yes, shop money is used to help fund development, I doubt you would believe anyway.

But analysis of the facts makes it pretty clear either way:

• WoW subscribers are down by more than 50% (maybe even 65%) since WoW peaked. Furthermore the cost of subs hasn't increased (to track with inflation) in 15 years.
• The game generates a bunch of money from the shop now
• The developers continue to put out content for the game, with little sign that the rate has been slowing over time (eg WoD was criticised for being light on content, but both Legion and BfA have output a lot more since)

Furthermore Blizzard have stated repeatedly that their WoW development team is as big as ever.

So, if their dev team hasn't shrunk, but their subscription revenue has, then where did they get the funds to keep spending on development if not from the shop??



That's a cop-out, expecting some other authority to come and hand you the answer. As a scientist, look at the data you have and make a dispassionate assessment of my hypothesis. If you think you have a better hypothesis, I, as a fellow scientist, am open to hearing it.



Try walking into a McDonalds and demanding that they give you free fries with your burger because you're really good at eating burgers and see how far that gets you....


I am not disputing that the game should give cooler rewards to the players who are better and achieve more difficult feats. But that is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. WoW is still a product that costs money to make. So yes, how much you pay for it does, directly, affect how much you're entitled to get out of it.

- - - Updated - - -



I can't say I've really seen a reduction in the amount of stuff we're getting in-game though (which makes sense given that the WoW dev team has actually grown over the years). It seems to me that your obsession with the shop and the things you can't get (because you don't want to spend money - fair enough) is blinding you to all the awesome stuff you can get.

For example, they may have removed tier sets in BfA, but their stated reason was that they wanted to use the people who would have made those armour sets to make other armour sets (hint: allied races and heritage armour).



...when the game was new, at a time when they had a bigger (and still growing) subscriber base, and most of the people in the organisation were much earlier in the careers (and thus cost less in salaries).

I still don't understand this fantasy that Blizzard should be expected to continue to output the same quality/quantity without being able to compensate for loss of revenue.




Sounds to me like the shop made it possible. As you yourself said, people had been asking for it for years, long before the shop, and Blizzard clearly didn't have the available resources to make it a priority.

I thought you were trying to argue why the shop is terrible, not why it's great!

If you got a signed affidavit, I would be a fucking retard to not believe it, so no, your assessment is wrong :P I would totally believe it and change my views on the shop, if it was proved that its income was used to fund other parts of the in-game world, in a heartbeat.

I'm also glad that we agree that harder content in the game should give cooler rewards. Being a top-end raider/PVPer SHOULD entitle you to the best/coolest rewards the game has to offer, not your willingness to throw 20 euro-bills at your screen.

You keep on saying how Blizz has lost revenue over the years, due to not raising their subscription to follow world inflation and losing subs. One thing you're forgetting to take into account though is that the costs of running servers has decreased MONUMENTALLY over the years. It is VERY different running a server in 2005 and running a server in 2020. The difference is honestly mind-boggling. Ever heard the age-old joke that the WoW servers are powered by hamsters running in wheels?

You think the shop made the bat mount possible? Well...I beg to differ. The in-game model of bats has existed since day 1 of the game. How difficult do you think it is to take an already-existing model, shrink it down a bit to be coherent with other mounts/size of the player, and turn it into an item? Would like someone with game-developping experience to answer this one, if possible. Note - no animation is required - the skeleton, the model, the animations and the textures are already in-game, waiting. In your eyes the store made the bat mount possible, in my eyes it was a greedy cash-grab because they KNEW people wanted this mount and chose to milk them for money instead of making it obtainable through other means. It's not like it was developped from scratch.

Your McDonald's analogy is also quite strange. Food is a consumer good, mounts/pets/titles is a digital in-game reward. Did you know that back in the day, Beta-keys for the new expansions were given to progress raiders, exclusively? I would know. My whole guild got an e-mail with our TBC beta-keys, cause we were a Naxxramas-progressing guild at 12/15. This is a great example of top-end raiders getting an adequate reward for their efforts. Obviously you want the best players the game has to offer to try out your new expansion, for a myriad of reasons.

Lastly, the shop isn't "Horrible". The fact I vehemently oppose its existence as a matter of principle is my own issue, not anyone else's. I have never used it a single time, nor do I plan to. It just pains me to see awesome stuff that could be obtainable in-game being thrown on there. Same applies to Collector's Edition things, or stuff like Tyrael's Charger (an in-game WoW reward for buying Diablo!? Tyrael's Charger could be an AMAZING Paladin/Priest class-mount reward, or a rep-faction reward, or ANYTHING other than being a reward for buying ANOTHER GAME UNRELATED TO WOW).

[Sevryn]

I could see why this would be attractive to yourself and possibly many others but for me it's a no. I actually like grinding sets. It's a good sense of accomplishment when you finish a set or a weapon drops that you're wanting. And it also makes it that I ALWAYS have something I can do in game. Let me ask you this. If you have lots of money like you said and you bought every transmog set you could own in game, would there be any point in you ever playing? Like you said you have no time raid so the game would be pointless to you

[Nachturnal]

So you don't care what people do with their money, unless they're doing something with their money that you don't like. Am I understanding that right?

Because if I am, that's uh... that's cool! I, too despise people who spend their money on things that make them happy but don't make me happy (and is otherwise of absolutely no consequence to me). I'd punch them in the face if I could! How dare they.

Feel free to correct me, though. I'd rather not misunderstand you if you happened to spin that wrong.

I understand the sentiment of "I don't agree with the cash shop, so I'm not going to buy anything from it." I don't quite understand the sentiment of "I don't agree with the cash shop, so I'm going to aggressively harass anybody who uses it." I understand the sentiment of "Everything made for the game should be included in the game with the price of the game, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Would it be nice if everything was? Yeah, sure. But as long as that mog gear doesn't suddenly have crazy stats tied to them as well, then it's nothing more than an unintrusive thing for me to consider. Most of the stuff on the shop looks silly anyway, aside from the Eternal Traveller's set, which technically is an actual, ACTUAL paid-for mog that no one seems to want to acknowledge.

Seriously, this ^. All this. How can you say you don't care how people spend their money but also advocate harassing them for how they spent their money. Especially over something as mundane as empty armor visuals. Crossing the line would be adding armor sets with stats or any item with stats for that matter. But mog? Who cares? Like you said, sure in a perfect world everything on the shop would be obtainable through in-game activities, but I also understand that WoW isn't at it's peak anymore, a la WotLK subscriber numbers, so they need a means to make more income. A couple of cosmetics in shop makes sense. We still get a ton of content in-game that far outweighs the quality of shop items in my opinion.

But to kick people from groups because they have some shop items? That's just childish. Make your opinion known if you must, but to ruin someone else's game experience over something so trivial? Just reeks of neckbeard gatekeeping gamer.

[Dalinos]

So you don't care what people do with their money, unless they're doing something with their money that you don't like. Am I understanding that right?

Because if I am, that's uh... that's cool! I, too despise people who spend their money on things that make them happy but don't make me happy (and is otherwise of absolutely no consequence to me). I'd punch them in the face if I could! How dare they.

Feel free to correct me, though. I'd rather not misunderstand you if you happened to spin that wrong.

I understand the sentiment of "I don't agree with the cash shop, so I'm not going to buy anything from it." I don't quite understand the sentiment of "I don't agree with the cash shop, so I'm going to aggressively harass anybody who uses it." I understand the sentiment of "Everything made for the game should be included in the game with the price of the game, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Would it be nice if everything was? Yeah, sure. But as long as that mog gear doesn't suddenly have crazy stats tied to them as well, then it's nothing more than an unintrusive thing for me to consider. Most of the stuff on the shop looks silly anyway, aside from the Eternal Traveller's set, which technically is an actual, ACTUAL paid-for mog that no one seems to want to acknowledge.

Well I know I might come across as this psychotic guy who wants to harass everyone, but truthfully, it has never happened. I haven't even seen anyone using the Store Transmog helmets, nor do I PUG. If you notice, all this is hypothetical, SHOULD I run into someone using the store-bought transmog helms. I've never ACTUALLY kicked anyone, since I don't PUG. That I WOULD want to kick them, is a different story - no PUGgers with store-bought Tmog helms were harmed in the creation of these posts.

Also, you know what I find funny? Many people support movements such as Black Lives Matter, the MeToo campaign, LGBTQABCDEFG rights etc etc, by showing their disdain towards what they perceive to be racist/sexists/whatever-ist stuff, but when someone does it for something else, all support is lost? Er, what?

"I don't like racism, racism is bad, I will do everything in my power to show everyone racism is bad, I will chastise racists because I think they are bad"
"I don't like the shop, the shop is bad, I will do everything in my power to show everyone the shop is bad, I will chastise shop-buyers because I think they are bad".

One is supported, one is frowned upon. Double-standards much?