Horde Reparations

[Soon-TM]

Look at the current horde leadership. If we lose those we are done. If alliance lose theirs there are 10 for each leader willing to be put in instead. The Alliance has privilege. That is a fact.

Agreed. Just look at what we know of the upcoming Shadows Rising book. While the Alliance will feature two big names such as Alleria and Turalyon, the Horde will contribute with such stellar figures as Boranji or Memeboi. The only way this can feel even remotely comparable is by giving disproportionately more spotlight to Horde characters, whose background is nothing short of inexistent.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Not really and that is the main problem, the horde wasn't beaten after wc3 , it always ended up being more or less a draw and a flimsy armistice. Once again status quo has been established, with neither side capable of beating the other and it will most likely remain that way until the mmo is shut down, or blizz grows some balls and is willing to make an expansion about an occupation.

There was no war between the Alliance and Horde in WC3.

The Horde did lose in WC2 though, as you can see from the whole internment camp business.
The Horde also lost the WotLK-MoP war, when Alliance forces sacked and occupied Orgrimmar, and could have ended the Horde right there and then (but decided not to).

The only war that ended in a stalemate, was the recent BFA war. I know it's referred to as the 4th War, but if Blizz writing had any consistency and logic, it would have been the 5th War, because the WotLK-MoP war was clearly a different conflict with a clear cut resoultion at the end of SoO, so that one should obviously be called the 4th War. And Alliance was still winning in BFA before most Alliance and Anti Sylvanas Horde forces were apparently killed off-screen during the Nazjatar story, while all the Sylvanas Loyalist forces were magically safe and suffered no casualties during the 8.2 campaign.

[Feanoro]

Horde loses characters? You don't say?

Horde fans: We want to crush the Alliance for existing! DA WER IN WERCREFT!
Blizz writers, well known for being hippies: War is bad, maaaaaaaaaan.
Horde fans: BLOOD! THUNDER! CHICKEN TENDIES!
Blizz writers: Your endgame is everyone NotHorde dead. Alliance endgame is you stop murdering them for a while. Your endgame can't happen.
Horde fans: We lust for mountains of skulls and rivers of blood! Also, don't you dare blame the war on our aggression.
Blizz writers: OK, Alliance wins because we're not flushing our business model. Everything is blamed on $hordecharacter so the Horde itself is blameless.
Horde fans: *surprised Pikachu face*

[Hubbl3]

Horde loses characters? You don't say?

Horde fans: We want to crush the Alliance for existing! DA WER IN WERCREFT!
Blizz writers, well known for being hippies: War is bad, maaaaaaaaaan.
Horde fans: BLOOD! THUNDER! CHICKEN TENDIES!
Blizz writers: Your endgame is everyone NotHorde dead. Alliance endgame is you stop murdering them for a while. Your endgame can't happen.
Horde fans: We lust for mountains of skulls and rivers of blood! Also, don't you dare blame the war on our aggression.
Blizz writers: OK, Alliance wins because we're not flushing our business model. Everything is blamed on $hordecharacter so the Horde itself is blameless.
Horde fans: *surprised Pikachu face*

Yeah, it's the "Horde Fans" forcing Blizz to write this stuff.

[Aresk]

There was no war between the Alliance and Horde in WC3.

I'm not sure how you can say there was no war when they're constantly attacking one another throughout WC3, with a respite after they encounter Medivh until Daelin arrives. The game starts with the Alliance taking Grom prisoner (again), then the Horde attacking the Alliance camp and (later retconned to) Southshore to steal ships. They skirmish with Kul Tiras in the ocean over the Darkspear. The Alliance continues to worry about orcs and dispatches Arthas and Uther to deal with orcs who've been attacking internment camps near Alterac (which admittedly weren't following Thrall, but they were still Horde as far as the Alliance was concerned). As soon as the orcs do make it to Kalimdor, they secure allies with the tauren and then immediately go back to fighting the Alliance. It isn't until they meet the prophet that Alliance and Horde enter any sort of ceasefire on Kalimdor. Once Daelin shows up, it's back to the war until Daelin is eventually dealt with.

The overarching narrative focuses on the battle with the Undead and the Legion, but there is definitely Horde/Alliance aggression throughout (predominantly during the Horde campaigns).

[Combatbutler]

There was no war between the Alliance and Horde in WC3.

Absolutely inconsequential, the point is the horde wasn't beaten either by the Alliance or otherwise to a point they could be forced to adhere to any treaty after WC3

The Horde also lost the WotLK-MoP war, when Alliance forces sacked and occupied Orgrimmar, and could have ended the Horde right there and then (but decided not to).

It wouldn't have ended the war, the Alliance could have won, but they didn't see it through so in the end it is all guesswork. The Horde actually got territory at the end of it all.

[Mardux]

Horde loses characters? You don't say?

Horde fans: We want to crush the Alliance for existing! DA WER IN WERCREFT!
Blizz writers, well known for being hippies: War is bad, maaaaaaaaaan.
Horde fans: BLOOD! THUNDER! CHICKEN TENDIES!
Blizz writers: Your endgame is everyone NotHorde dead. Alliance endgame is you stop murdering them for a while. Your endgame can't happen.
Horde fans: We lust for mountains of skulls and rivers of blood! Also, don't you dare blame the war on our aggression.
Blizz writers: OK, Alliance wins because we're not flushing our business model. Everything is blamed on $hordecharacter so the Horde itself is blameless.
Horde fans: *surprised Pikachu face*

You should give wow a try. Its story can be decent at times (if you play as the alliance saint-like dogooders). Whatever other game, revisionist history, headcanon, etc, you pulled all that shit from sounds like it sucks and that you should stop playing it.

[Thage]

I know it's referred to as the 4th War, but if Blizz writing had any consistency and logic, it would have been the 5th War, because the WotLK-MoP war was clearly a different conflict with a clear cut resoultion at the end of SoO, so that one should obviously be called the 4th War.

In fairness, the WotLK-MoP war seems to have been considered mostly a resource war, and despite Varian's war declaration, things cooled back off after the Lich King's defeat (The Shattering even has Cairne explicitly make note of the treaty including marking naval boundaries in his internal monologue, and chastising Garrosh out loud for sticking purely to the word of the treaties rather than the spirit when an Alliance vessel was blown off-course and into Horde waters during a severe storm at sea). So in the Lich King war, hostilities didn't grow enough to be considered a full-on war, rather, they were considered theaters within the war on the Lich King.

The wars that ignited after the Shattering, on the other hand, were ostensibly about resources, culminating in the Horde invading Pandaria for resources and the Alliance seeking to prevent the Horde from annexing the pandaren mainland during the Pandaren Campaign. There were other causes and motives behind the resource wars and Pandaren Campaign, of course, but that's how the leadership chose to outline the war, and it seems these resource wars didn't heat up enough to be considered the Fourth War, likely because the resource wars weren't fought for faction dominance but to secure necessary land and resources for survival.

The Fourth War (beginning after the Broken Shore catastrophe and ongoing despite champions of both factions focusing their efforts on the Legion, and kicking into full swing with the Burning of Teldrassil and Siege of Undercity) was a global war fought both for faction dominance and for control of Azerite as a resource. It was much more in line with the First and Second Wars in that the goal was to break the other faction and win, although the war's ending was comparatively tame due to Sylvanas outing herself after Saurfang duped her, and the rest of the Horde turning on her and agreeing to a peace treaty once it became clear nothing stood to be gained from continuing a war that had exhausted both factions so badly that Stormwind was conscripting farmers to shore up the numbers.

[Mardux]

I agree it's a spiritual successor, but whenever that's brought up, it's 100% to blame the modern Alliance for Arthas' actions.

Alterac, Dalaran, and Lordaeron are also not part of the modern Alliance. Lordaeron ceased to exist as a nation.

And when its brought up, it's nearly 100% in response to thralls horde being blamed for the actions of the old horde and/or garrosh loyalists and/or any random bad guy that shares a race with a horde faction. The only difference is anything the horde does is bad, and anything the alliance does that's bad is either "headcanon" (if you ask the players) or simply a response to something the alliance blames on the horde (regardless of whether or not horde actually did it or it was justified).

[Varodoc]

And when its brought up, it's nearly 100% in response to thralls horde being blamed for the actions of the old horde and/or garrosh loyalists and/or any random bad guy that shares a race with a horde faction. The only difference is anything the horde does is bad, and anything the alliance does that's bad is either "headcanon" (if you ask the players) or simply a response to something the alliance blames on the horde (regardless of whether or not horde actually did it or it was justified).

That's cool and all, but the Alliance still isn't to blame for Arthas' actions.

[Combatbutler]

That's cool and all, but the Alliance still isn't to blame for Arthas' actions.

Anduin disagrees.

[deenman]

Make peace, ally with them, work with them together to heal and mend all thigns.

I think you misspelled,butcher them,cut of heir heads,and drink their blood from their skulls

[Sagenod]

Horde tried the whole "peace" thing a couple times in the last couple of years. Each time it was ruined, first by genn in stormheim. Then again by Anduin in Arathi.

When a party refuses peace, there isnt much left aside from bloodshed.

How the heckin heck did Anduin start the conflict in Arathi? He was reuiniting living and dead family members and Sylvanas tried to kill everyone with arrows.

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As painfully cringy this is,you've gotta appreciate how they were infracted with the reason being "Received Infraction"

Top tier moderation as always

Infracted.

Infractception.

Aucald you're my fave

[Grazrug]

That's cool and all, but the Alliance still isn't to blame for Arthas' actions.

Well Anduin says otherwise. And he's your leader.

[justandulas]

How should the Horde pay reparations to the Alliance, particularly the Night Elves, for their conduct in the Fourth War?

Sure, as soon as the alliance pays reparations for burning orgrimmar

[Ardenaso]

There was no war between the Alliance and Horde in WC3.

The Horde did lose in WC2 though, as you can see from the whole internment camp business.
The Horde also lost the WotLK-MoP war, when Alliance forces sacked and occupied Orgrimmar, and could have ended the Horde right there and then (but decided not to)

I do remember the glorious battle between the Frostwolves and the Warsong vs. Gilneas, Stromgarde, Lordaeron, Kul Tiras, Ironforge, and Quel'thalas Brigades - guess which side won

The only reason why the Alliance managed to win in WC2 and the 4th war was because of the Horde infighting. Also, the 4th war started when Varian declared war in the Undercity and the war never ended in MoP, it was just an armistice

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Anduin disagrees.

Well Anduin says otherwise. And he's your leader.

I now think Anduin sees Arthas (and Daelin) as a bad apple of the Alliance, not blaming the Alliance for him

It would be like saying Thrall seeing Sludge Fields as a bad apple of the Horde, even though the Horde had really no hand to it

[Combatbutler]

I now think Anduin sees Arthas (and Daelin) as a bad apple of the Alliance, not blaming the Alliance for him

Anduin makes the point that these two acted as part of the Alliance and that their actions haunt them to this day. So he acknowledges responsibility, just as Saurfang lists of the crimes of the past and how these shackle them today.

[Saltysquidoon]

Anduin makes the point that these two acted as part of the Alliance and that their actions haunt them to this day. So he acknowledges responsibility, just as Saurfang lists of the crimes of the past and how these shackle them today.

He is blatantly wrong about Arthas and him stating it just goes to show how desperate the writers are to pull villains out of the alliance to justify the mind bendingly stupid 'cycle of hatred' meme. In-universe everything that happened after he picked up frostmourne wasn't even done under the Alliance's banner, there is no reasonable way to construe his acts as happening under even the perceived authority of the alliance.

Daelin makes more sense, but even then it would be nice if blizzard expanded on the formation of the GA from the AoL beyond a two-sentence blurb in the faction descriptions on the WoW website.

[Feanoro]

Yeah, it's the "Horde Fans" forcing Blizz to write this stuff.

You should give wow a try. Its story can be decent at times (if you play as the alliance saint-like dogooders). Whatever other game, revisionist history, headcanon, etc, you pulled all that shit from sounds like it sucks and that you should stop playing it.

I invite you both to actually read this forum for five minutes, you'll find no shortage of pro-Horde posters that screech about wanting to be the Old Horde, wanting to destroy the Alliance, etc. I invite you to watch clips from Blizzcon, where Horde fans roar and cheer when blues rile them up about destroying the Alliance. Yes, in general the Horde playerbase thinks the Horde's motivation is to crush the Alliance. Sorry you don't like it.

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He is blatantly wrong about Arthas and him stating it just goes to show how desperate the writers are to pull villains out of the alliance to justify the mind bendingly stupid 'cycle of hatred' meme. In-universe everything that happened after he picked up frostmourne wasn't even done under the Alliance's banner, there is no reasonable way to construe his acts as happening under even the perceived authority of the alliance.

Daelin makes more sense, but even then it would be nice if blizzard expanded on the formation of the GA from the AoL beyond a two-sentence blurb in the faction descriptions on the WoW website.

Anduin echoes Horde fans' ironic racism in such matters. "You can't judge all orcs for what a few did!" "Arthas was a human, therefore the Scourge was the Alliance's fault!" To even have him say something so incredibly stupid and ignorant of the actual story is yet another piece of evidence that the writers are Hordies.

#DaelinWasRight #TyrandeIsRight

[Combatbutler]

He is blatantly wrong about Arthas and him stating it just goes to show how desperate the writers are to pull villains out of the alliance to justify the mind bendingly stupid 'cycle of hatred' meme. In-universe everything that happened after he picked up frostmourne wasn't even done under the Alliance's banner, there is no reasonable way to construe his acts as happening under even the perceived authority of the alliance.

Daelin makes more sense, but even then it would be nice if blizzard expanded on the formation of the GA from the AoL beyond a two-sentence blurb in the faction descriptions on the WoW website.

Is it stupid? Of course it is, doesn't change the fact that it is, what it is.