Horde Reparations

[Saltysquidoon]

Is it stupid? Of course it is, doesn't change the fact that it is, what it is.

It is what? In spite of what Golden and Betauser would have us believe, anduin is human and fallible (and it goes without saying blizzard's writers are extremely failable) him making a statement doesn't make it true in or out of universe.
It is not even vaguely contestable everything after strath was done without the mandate of the alliance and everything after taking up frostmourne was done actively leading another faction openly hostile to the allaince (not a splinter group or sub-faction or civil war), there are entire games of evidence directly showing this.
One line of dialogue years later can't just make the above not true, there is a limit on what you can retcon before a story just collapses in on itself and loses the ability to matter.

This forum is a lore discussion forum, not the"blindly accept every piece of shit blizzard squirts out" forum, the word of god can only go so far before it loses all meaning. What if tomorrow blizzard said malfurion was a gnome in a night elf mask all along despite that being both stupid and impossible?

Ultimately just saying "anduin said it (and by extension blizzard's present writing team wants it to be true)" means nothing if the comment doesn't stand up to security, which it obviously doesn't (and you clearly know and agree with).

[Ardenaso]

He is blatantly wrong about Arthas and him stating it just goes to show how desperate the writers are to pull villains out of the alliance to justify the mind bendingly stupid 'cycle of hatred' meme. In-universe everything that happened after he picked up frostmourne wasn't even done under the Alliance's banner, there is no reasonable way to construe his acts as happening under even the perceived authority of the alliance.

Daelin makes more sense, but even then it would be nice if blizzard expanded on the formation of the GA from the AoL beyond a two-sentence blurb in the faction descriptions on the WoW website.

He should've said "Daelin, Garithos, Blackmoore, Benedictus, Cordana... *blablabla*"

[Feanoro]

He should've said "Daelin, Garithos, Blackmoore, Benedictus, Cordana... *blablabla*"

So, "acted alone based on the Orcs' violent escape and potential threat, acted alone, acted covertly planning to overthrow the Alliance, corrupted by Old Gods, corrupted by Legion"? None of those show the Alliance acting, unless corruption no longer counts, and anyone defending orcs should be VERY careful there.

[Combatbutler]

snip

Lore changes all the time. Ultimately blizz decides what is true and matters, whether we like it or not, they can change the very history of a race in a patch and it would be canon, forsaken can be written as genocidal monsters and then as saints. We can tell blizz it is shit and it doesn't make sense, but we are not the ones who can decide what is canon or not.

At the end of day their universe is a patchwork, which is barely comprehensive and filled to the brim with their rule of cool nonsense. If you look at it with any kind of serious scrutiny it simply cannot hold up.

[Saltysquidoon]

At the end of day their universe is a patchwork, which is barely comprehensive and filled to the brim with their rule of cool nonsense. If you look at it with any kind of serious scrutiny it simply cannot hold up.

This is (I heavily suspect knowingly) a fundamental misapprehension about lore forum and it's function. This is the place for scrutiny of the lore and its foibles not the glib robotic pasting of wiki articles.

If you want to spend your time trying to post glib zingers more power to you, I'm not telling you how to live your life. But let's not pretend 'lorelol' is ever a valid or good faith argument on the lore forums.

[mcfrolic]

How should the Horde pay reparations to the Alliance, particularly the Night Elves, for their conduct in the Fourth War?

How would there be reparations if nothing wrong was done? Confused..

[Raisei]

Yeah, it's the "Horde Fans" forcing Blizz to write this stuff.

Well, actually, have you seen this forum in the last few month? Hordes are going nuts at the the prospect that they are forced into peace with the Alliance for an expansion. The amount of people demanding exactly what @Feanoro describes is not as small as you make it sound like.

The problem is that the playerbase is completely divided. Some people play Horde because they want to be the noble savages, or the outcasts trying to overcome the prejudice of others. Other people want to be the bad guys, genocial murderers that just want to have war because slaughtering humans is fun.

Somehow Blizzard is forced to please both of these sides somehow, hence why the Horde keeps going from chaotic good to chaotic bad in the span of a few expansions and since consequences cannot ever fully affect a player faction (i.e. it cannot be wiped out, no matter how much it deserves it) there is scapegoats in place, like Garrosh and Sylvanas.

This is why I fully expect to see another insane warchief (maybe not by that title) in 11.0 or so that will again turn the Horde into a tool for genocide, because otherwise the part of the playerbase that WANTS this will leave.

So in essence yes, the Horde Fans ARE forcing Blizz to write this stuff.

[Skytotem]

Well, actually, have you seen this forum in the last few month? Hordes are going nuts at the the prospect that they are forced into peace with the Alliance for an expansion. The amount of people demanding exactly what @Feanoro describes is not as small as you make it sound like.

The problem is that the playerbase is completely divided. Some people play Horde because they want to be the noble savages, or the outcasts trying to overcome the prejudice of others. Other people want to be the bad guys, genocial murderers that just want to have war because slaughtering humans is fun.

Somehow Blizzard is forced to please both of these sides somehow, hence why the Horde keeps going from chaotic good to chaotic bad in the span of a few expansions and since consequences cannot ever fully affect a player faction (i.e. it cannot be wiped out, no matter how much it deserves it) there is scapegoats in place, like Garrosh and Sylvanas.

This is why I fully expect to see another insane warchief (maybe not by that title) in 11.0 or so that will again turn the Horde into a tool for genocide, because otherwise the part of the playerbase that WANTS this will leave.

So in essence yes, the Horde Fans ARE forcing Blizz to write this stuff.

It'd be really easy to go back to the way it was in the Vanilla-Wotlk timeframe, where part of the Horde was honorable and the other half operated on the sly.

Or even just have it be grey where the Horde gets along internally and with neutral factions but is really brutal to 'evil' forces (Forsaken vivisecting demons or old god minions) and fluctuates in how harsh it is with the Alliance proportionally.

Like the Horde and Alliance having a Orc and Human pair of commanders who respect each other and have a 'clean' fight, while there can also be Nelf and Forsaken commanders who fight shady or viciously.

[Hubbl3]

I invite you both to actually read this forum for five minutes, you'll find no shortage of pro-Horde posters that screech about wanting to be the Old Horde, wanting to destroy the Alliance, etc. I invite you to watch clips from Blizzcon, where Horde fans roar and cheer when blues rile them up about destroying the Alliance. Yes, in general the Horde playerbase thinks the Horde's motivation is to crush the Alliance. Sorry you don't like it.

It's still Blizz who writes this because it's the story they want to tell. It's their decision to start with a story about conquest and alliance vs horde and then shift it into red alliance and blue alliance vs cosmic threat #3473. They decide what each character does and what happens, no one else. It's also Blizz who decides that the Horde will pay nothing for starting another war with the alliance. We are now allies.

You could argue that Horde players "forced" Blizz to write the loyalist arc in BFA. But that was so barebones that they might as well have skipped it. It hasn't even a "what you did was wrong"-conclusion for the player character.

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So in essence yes, the Horde Fans ARE forcing Blizz to write this stuff.

There are ways to keep the game about Alliance vs Horde, at least in the background, without one side winning. That Blizz only knows one way is their problem.

[Minikin]

Absolutely inconsequential, the point is the horde wasn't beaten either by the Alliance or otherwise to a point they could be forced to adhere to any treaty after WC3




It wouldn't have ended the war, the Alliance could have won, but they didn't see it through so in the end it is all guesswork. The Horde actually got territory at the end of it all.

Horde bias!!!! Seeeee!

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Anduin disagrees.

Well he had to come up with something to cause a diplomatic dialogue lol

Man. Blue side really needs a villain. I think the last one was benedictus?

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It'd be really easy to go back to the way it was in the Vanilla-Wotlk timeframe, where part of the Horde was honorable and the other half operated on the sly.
.

I dunno. Id seems like a pipe dream because some horde still support sylvanas even with her saying they mean nothing and she'd rather feed them to the grinder in the Maw.

[Soon-TM]

I dunno. Id seems like a pipe dream because some horde still support sylvanas even with her saying they mean nothing and she'd rather feed them to the grinder in the Maw.

Well, some people do like to play the evil bois/gurls, and Sylvanas is the closest the game has to offer in that regard... Even if writing is terribly mangled and nonsensical at times. I'd rather have more interesting villains than REEEEE Sylvie, and more interesting good guys than Anduin Sue, but that's just me

[Skytotem]

I dunno. Id seems like a pipe dream because some horde still support sylvanas even with her saying they mean nothing and she'd rather feed them to the grinder in the Maw.

Let them keep their little shrines to Sylvie in the corners, treat em like warlocks.

Each faction should have a sliding scale, a SPECTRUM of 'good to evil' folks in it, and even within each race.

NOTE Good shouldn't mean "Light happy sweetness" all the time, just like "Evil" shouldn't mean "Shadowy cackling mustache-twirling"

Let the Alliance have some Garithos or Maiev types that hug their kids and are good friends to dwarves and nelfs but honestly try to wipe orcs and forsaken out...

and let the Horde have Forsaken and Orcs that are pals to trolls and deal honorably with each other but will shamelessly shank humans or nelfs in the back.

[Hubbl3]

I'd rather have more interesting villains than REEEEE Sylvie, and more interesting good guys than Anduin Sue, but that's just me

That's something we all want, but I fear it will not happen since Blizz only knows stupid evil and flawless good.

[Minikin]

Let them keep their little shrines to Sylvie in the corners, treat em like warlocks.

Each faction should have a sliding scale, a SPECTRUM of 'good to evil' folks in it, and even within each race.

NOTE Good shouldn't mean "Light happy sweetness" all the time, just like "Evil" shouldn't mean "Shadowy cackling mustache-twirling"

Let the Alliance have some Garithos or Maiev types that hug their kids and are good friends to dwarves and nelfs but honestly try to wipe orcs and forsaken out...

and let the Horde have Forsaken and Orcs that are pals to trolls and deal honorably with each other but will shamelessly shank humans or nelfs in the back.

Well, some people do like to play the evil bois/gurls, and Sylvanas is the closest the game has to offer in that regard... Even if writing is terribly mangled and nonsensical at times. I'd rather have more interesting villains than REEEEE Sylvie, and more interesting good guys than Anduin Sue, but that's just me

I don't disagree with wanting to play the evil side. My thing though is that it's not really possible in a setting like this and will always cause problems.

Because in the end it's a paid game with ppl playing both sides. No one can lose. And if one side goes evil then the other has to play world police..but since neither can win....we end up with BfA.

Honestly (I know I'm going to get shit for this) it should be more like Cata. Both factions had crap. Horde had stonetalon. And the alliance (most people forget) had benedictus.
Horde: A warchief that wants war but has to deal with honor and code.
Alliance: a faction priding itself on being the good guys, finds that its main religious figure for the main faction is aligned with Deathwing and Nzoth.

The issue is magnitude. No one is saying stop the war. But it's the magnitude of the attack.

Garrosh wants to get sustainability for his people. Ends up blowing up theramore and going racist.
Sylvanas wants a war of attrition ends up committing genocide.

At this point. Even if the alliance does something equally bad like bombing Silver Moon it would only be EQUAL not worse. Because in the end the horde wrecked undercity too lol, not the alliance.

[Skytotem]

I don't disagree with wanting to play the evil side. My thing though is that it's not really possible in a setting like this and will always cause problems.

Because in the end it's a paid game with ppl playing both sides. No one can lose. And if one side goes evil then the other has to play world police..but since neither can win....we end up with BfA.

Honestly (I know I'm going to get shit for this) it should be more like Cata. Both factions had crap. Horde had stonetalon. And the alliance (most people forget) had benedictus.
Horde: A warchief that wants war but has to deal with honor and code.
Alliance: a faction priding itself on being the good guys, finds that its main religious figure for the main faction is aligned with Deathwing and Nzoth.

The issue is magnitude. No one is saying stop the war. But it's the magnitude of the attack.

Garrosh wants to get sustainability for his people. Ends up blowing up theramore and going racist.
Sylvanas wants a war of attrition ends up committing genocide.

At this point. Even if the alliance does something equally bad like bombing Silver Moon it would only be EQUAL not worse. Because in the end the horde wrecked undercity too lol, not the alliance.

Oh I definitely agree the scale needs to be dialed back considerably, there should be belligerence and cold war style friction, not outright genocide and campaigns of extermination hoping to wipe the other nation off the face of the earth.

It should be about territory and resources and concessions... which SHOULD have been Garrosh or Sylv's thing but... Blizz had to make Horde evil again.

[Minikin]

Oh I definitely agree the scale needs to be dialed back considerably, there should be belligerence and cold war style friction, not outright genocide and campaigns of extermination hoping to wipe the other nation off the face of the earth.

It should be about territory and resources and concessions... which SHOULD have been Garrosh or Sylv's thing but... Blizz had to make Horde evil again.

Well hey the circle is broken now.








.....



Until we find the horde at yet another crossroads.

[Soon-TM]

Until we find the horde at yet another crossroads.

This lady Roux's new book literally says that the Horde is at a Crossroads™. I can't believe it

[Minikin]

This lady Roux's new book literally says that the Horde is at a Crossroads™. I can't believe it

I know I was subtley poking fun at it XD

[Vilendor]

Because of the stupid-evil story Blizzard forced on them in BFA.

I think you would be surprised by how many horde player choose to side with Slvanas

[mickybrighteyes]

I think you would be surprised by how many horde player choose to side with Slvanas

Well the alternative was siding with Baine or Anduin...

That kind of skews the results.