The greatest failures of the horde.

[Tuor]

Fabricated in what sense? Durotar is and was always resource-poor, even before the situation being worsened with the Cataclysm. Portals are also rarer in the lore than they are in-game, and are not really a suitable replacement for infrastructure of any kind. Zeppelins are not suitable for transport either, just like zeppelins in real-life; their storage/weight capacity is severely constrained.

Being reliant on imports alone for sustenance is not a great place to be in for any nation, and given that it turns out that Thrall chose Durotar as a kind of racial penance for the Orcs makes the situation seem even worse. Effectively you're punishing the generations to come for the sins of the proverbial fathers.

Comming from the EK has an exile, Thrall most likely choosed the place most likely for not being inhabited, has other areas were already inhabited (Ashenvale, Mulgore)

[Super Dickmann]

Comming from the EK has an exile, Thrall most likely choosed the place most likely for not being inhabited, has other areas were already inhabited (Ashenvale, Mulgore)

Thrall chose it because it was shit deliberately to teach the orcs a lesson, he says this verbatim. While @Kyphael is free to consider it a retcon, and I'd agree that it is, and mostly argue from the perspective that it's a positive one much like the orcs not being all chaotic evil and worshiping demons from christian Hell, the actual game doesn't have much ambiguity on this topic. When it comes to the inherent plausibility, portals by themselves break the setting in half in a million ways and it's best to use them the way the writers do - whenever convenient and never again. 'Why are sieges a thing at all if mages can blink across continents and into fortresses?', 'Why are fleets in use at all if mages can portal directly from the point of creation to the point of delivery?' and a million others.

If ranking ideas on plausibility - this land that looks shit managed by people with no history of agriculture is shit at sustaining life far exceeds 'everything you know about these guys is wrong ,all their heroes are gone, this guy is what they were about all along' which is what Thrall's introduction was in plausibility, and generally far more helpful in enabling long-form MMO-appropriate storytelling, even if it was squandered in short order.

[Aucald]

Comming from the EK has an exile, Thrall most likely choosed the place most likely for not being inhabited, has other areas were already inhabited (Ashenvale, Mulgore)

In Heart of War, Thrall explicitly says Durotar was chosen because of the harshness of the land - a means to have the Horde redeem a land in place of the one it had destroyed (most of Draenor) as a kind of penance for the actions of the Old Horde. In WC3 and WC3: TFT the Horde explored most of the Kalimdor, excepting the southernmost reaches of Silithus (a wasteland of another kind in any case), so they definitely had options beyond Durotar, Ashenvale, and Mulgore.

It is something of a retcon, though; as this rationale was never part of the original decision in WC3 and Classic, where the Horde basically settled in the first land they found - although it is seemingly in keeping with Thrall's overall Shamanistic philosophy.

[valky94]

rastakhan left us too soon man

[Kyphael]

Fabricated in what sense? Durotar is and was always resource-poor, even before the situation being worsened with the Cataclysm. Portals are also rarer in the lore than they are in-game, and are not really a suitable replacement for infrastructure of any kind. Zeppelins are not suitable for transport either, just like zeppelins in real-life; their storage/weight capacity is severely constrained.

Being reliant on imports alone for sustenance is not a great place to be in for any nation, and given that it turns out that Thrall chose Durotar as a kind of racial penance for the Orcs makes the situation seem even worse. Effectively you're punishing the generations to come for the sins of the proverbial fathers.

Even if you take Zeppelins and portals out of the equation, which greatly diminishes the usefulness for mages as anything but literal spell flingers. They can't conjure up water? Or food? The Horde has vehicles where they can literally drive out into the wilderness to transport goods, be it lumber or food to bring back to Orgrimmar. They literally live on the coast. They can't fish? Mages can't convert salt water to sweet water?

[Aucald]

Even if you take Zeppelins and portals out of the equation, which greatly diminishes the usefulness for mages as anything but literal spell flingers. They can't conjure up water? Or food? The Horde has vehicles where they can literally drive out into the wilderness to transport goods, be it lumber or food to bring back to Orgrimmar. They literally live on the coast. They can't fish? Mages can't convert salt water to sweet water?

Mages can't conjure enough water or food to feed a nation, no. Conjured food also cannot be stored or warehoused in any long term sense even if it could be conjured in massive enough quantities. No nation on Azeroth has an extensive infrastructure, either; the only group with an actual road just so happens to be the goblins in Azshara with their rocketway and it's probably not the best example of functional infrastructure given the givens. Siege equipment isn't great for transport, either. Durotar has little to no lumber and very little arable land. I think it was meant for the rising Shamanic order to cultivate and improve upon the land over time, but due to the continual conflicts the Horde and Azeroth in general found itself in it never really came to fruition.

[korijenkins]

What's funny is that Baine is the one reason the Horde storyline wasn't total dogshit with Sylvanas being an ass warchief forever. Horde players complained that she was a bad choice for leader. Baine refused to follow her. Horde players complained that Baine wasn't loyal.

Hilariously stupid. Keep voting for that choice, expose yourselves.

[Super Dickmann]

Even if you take Zeppelins and portals out of the equation, which greatly diminishes the usefulness for mages as anything but literal spell flingers. They can't conjure up water? Or food? The Horde has vehicles where they can literally drive out into the wilderness to transport goods, be it lumber or food to bring back to Orgrimmar. They literally live on the coast. They can't fish? Mages can't convert salt water to sweet water?

Mages are so statistically irrelevant even in a kingdom where there's a whole district dedicated to them, Stormwind, that a fertile land with an active agriculture still had to contend with famines post-Wrath in Westfall. Durotar has none of these advantages, and their closest mages are on another continent and ruled by one power which is under martial law and another that is so stringy that even an undead apocalypse can only get it to commit itself under threat.

[Skytotem]

How about letting Sylvanus rule in general? Or letting her attack and burn the tree down, starting the entire war.

Yeah this would have to be my issue. Need an "other" option or a "Teldrassil" option.

[Deathrange]

Not killing Baine, should have executed him on the spot for treason.

[omeomorfismo]

The Horde has 1 more check on power than an absolute monarchy, namely Mak'gora and it's what solves the problem. Now, why Sadfang had to go into the wilderness and consult with four people before using it is another question entirely, ditto why no one else did.

Also, from a storytelling perspective, given that the takeaway from the story is that the Horde institutions are as much to blame for this as the person in charge, which is what we're told is the difference with Mists, it seems bizarre that in Mists the problem was solved extrajudicially whereas in BFA, the proper tool was what ultimately solved the issue. Yet the takeaway of the former is to put a new Warchief in charge and the takeaway of the latter is that the Warchief and the check on his power that is the single challenge is what is at fault and needs to go. It's a very muddled message. Even more so since it at the same time endorses bloodline absolute monarchy as a superior system. Both Calia and Anduin rule by divine right, and those who oppose bloodline monarchy are either pure evil, like Sylvanas, shown as misguided and stupid, like Tyrande, or discard their system of democracy to become absolute monarchs themselves, like Mekkatorque.

Did Louis XIV ghost-write the plot?

a funny thing is that calia shouldnt even have any right of succession accordlying to previous lore. she is female and she was nothing more than a womb for political marriage. but hey, lets forget this, the human potential is absolute! (i mean, it isnt even retconed)

[Grazrug]

What's funny is that Baine is the one reason the Horde storyline wasn't total dogshit with Sylvanas being an ass warchief forever. Horde players complained that she was a bad choice for leader. Baine refused to follow her. Horde players complained that Baine wasn't loyal.

Hilariously stupid. Keep voting for that choice, expose yourselves.

People wanted sylvanas to be a good warchief. Not a garrosh reprise. That's the real issue with the story.

[Rexosaurus]

What's funny is that Baine is the one reason the Horde storyline wasn't total dogshit with Sylvanas being an ass warchief forever. Horde players complained that she was a bad choice for leader. Baine refused to follow her. Horde players complained that Baine wasn't loyal.

Hilariously stupid. Keep voting for that choice, expose yourselves.

Yeah but he didn't do it in the specific way that most anti-sylvanas people wanted; aka challenge Sylvanas right away and die for nothing, just like Cairne.

Travesty!

[Combatbutler]

Comming from the EK has an exile, Thrall most likely choosed the place most likely for not being inhabited, has other areas were already inhabited (Ashenvale, Mulgore)

The place was still inhabited and to this day the orcs have absolutely no problems driving the natives off, or to exterminate them.

OT

Not learning from the past

[Kithelle]

How about that this was not a failure? One of the greatest things the Horde did actually. Now we have much much less night elves on Azeroth and also a great advantage over the alliance.

Being made fools of is a great advantage?

[Feanoro]

Yeah but he didn't do it in the specific way that most anti-sylvanas people wanted; aka challenge Sylvanas right away and die for nothing, just like Cairne.

Travesty!

Oh but him dying would have sent a message to the Horde, and they would have immediately stopped following her, just like how they were outraged by Cairne's death and stopped following Garrosh. Oh wait...

Mak'gora is another huge "rule of cool" problem with Horde lore. We're simultaneously supposed to believe they're intelligent, and that they think trial by combat is valid.

- - - Updated - - -

Being made fools of is a great advantage?

They want to have their cake and eat it.
- "The Horde is innocent, it was all that mean Blackhand/Gul'dan/Orgrim/Garrosh/Sylvanas, we dindu nuffin!"
- "The Horde won a great victory by that deed which we just denied doing!"

[Super Dickmann]

Oh but him dying would have sent a message to the Horde, and they would have immediately stopped following her, just like how they were outraged by Cairne's death and stopped following Garrosh. Oh wait...

Mak'gora is another huge "rule of cool" problem with Horde lore. We're simultaneously supposed to believe they're intelligent, and that they think trial by combat is valid.

Garrosh lost popularity while people thought he'd cheated in Mak'gora and Sylvanas is unseated through Mak'gora. Orgrim took over from Blackhand through Mak'gora. Given that the Horde has personal strength as a thing even races as disparate as the orcs and the fucking Nightborne have in common it's perfectly in line with its identity.

[Feanoro]

Garrosh lost popularity while people thought he'd cheated in Mak'gora and Sylvanas is unseated through Mak'gora. Orgrim took over from Blackhand through Mak'gora. Given that the Horde has personal strength as a thing even races as disparate as the orcs and the fucking Nightborne have in common it's perfectly in line with its identity.

- Garrosh lost popularity. And? The Horde merrily kept following him right up until he finally revealed his orc supremacist ideas.

- Sylvanas lost the Horde only when she stated openly in terms even the thundering moron Horde races could understand that she didn't give a damn about them. She did not lose the fight, which is the point of Mak'gora, the loser is automatically wrong.

- Orgrim took over. And? The Old Horde merrily kept slaughtering everything in sight, boohoo he had no choice. Horde went from being tricked by warlocks to WILLINGLY USING THEM. Orgrim made a moral choice there, and failed the morality check hard.

Mak'gora in the modern Horde makes even less sense than previously for your own example, orcs versus Nightborne. It's another rule of cool piece of "muh savages" bullshit.

[Super Dickmann]

- Garrosh lost popularity. And? The Horde merrily kept following him right up until he finally revealed his orc supremacist ideas.

- Sylvanas lost the Horde only when she stated openly in terms even the thundering moron Horde races could understand that she didn't give a damn about them. She did not lose the fight, which is the point of Mak'gora, the loser is automatically wrong.

- Orgrim took over. And? The Old Horde merrily kept slaughtering everything in sight, boohoo he had no choice. Horde went from being tricked by warlocks to WILLINGLY USING THEM. Orgrim made a moral choice there, and failed the morality check hard.

Mak'gora in the modern Horde makes even less sense than previously for your own example, orcs versus Nightborne. It's another rule of cool piece of "muh savages" bullshit.

They are a savage race and rule by the physically fittest fits the orcish culture. I wouldn't endorse it as a succession mechanism in real life, for the same reason that if they existed I'd be the first calling for the Forsaken to be thrown into the nearest incinerator, but it fits the race and it has yielded results both in its literal use - when Orgrim used it successfully to achieve his policy goal of kicking out Blackhand and assuming direct control of the hand away from the warlocks, and in a more complex situation like what Saurfang did. The reason why I brought up the Nightborne connection is because the Nightborne have the same thing in Tal'ashar. Ditching it not only doesn't make sense thematically because it has always worked as intended, and it also doesn't work as a means of improving the setting because a race like the orcs having that sort of honor duel to decide the ruler is entirely in keeping with them.

Also duels are cool.

[Feanoro]

They are a savage race and rule by the physically fittest fits the orcish culture.

But not the Horde overall. The Horde stopped being Orcish a long time ago.

Let me elaborate on your example, how I took it at least. An Orc versus Nightborne depends on whether magic is allowed (in before the "Thrall cheated" meme rears its ugly head). No magic? Orc crush puny skinny elf! Magic ok? Orc is dead before even swinging his ax.

You could easily predict the winner of any combination you liked of the Horde races. Since we can do so, it loses all value in deciding who's right. Mak'gora ONLY barely worked as an Orc tradition, strongest orc wins, and my original point was that trial by combat is only held in any esteem by primitives, not by anything intelligent.

The reason why I brought up the Nightborne connection is because the Nightborne have the same thing in Tal'ashar.

You mean the point in the campaign that was the most jarringly out of place? Highly sophisticated ancient beings resorting to brute combat? It was so alien to the rest of the setting that it wrecked the questline.

Also duels are cool.

And the only reason Mak'gora ever existed.