Orcs settling in Durotar wasn't as stupid as people say

[kansor]

Allegedly Thrall settled his people in the desert of Durotar as a form of "penance", thereby screwing them over and permanently dooming them to expansionist wars for the resources they need.

But settling in Orgrimmar was actually a sound choice. Look at the coastline of Kalimdor. The coast of Azshara, to the north, is overrun by naga. The orcs couldn't have settled there peacefully. And it doesn't have fresh water access except for the Southfury River, which is guarded by night elves and is too far away from the coast, where the orc settlement would presumably be.

North of Azshara is just a bunchy of rocky mountain cliffs until you get all the way over to Darkshore and Ashenvale, which were held by the night elves. Meanwhile, to the south of Durotar you have the coast of the Barrens, where Ratchet and Northwatch Hold are now. But this narrow strip of coastline has no source of fresh water, doesn't afford much farmland, and is exposed to attacks from the sea (such as from the Kul Tirans). South of there is Dustwallow. It has the same problem of being exposed to the sea, and settling in a swamp has to be at least as bad as settling in a desert. South of that you just get more deserts and cliffs all the way around the continent. Desolace and Feralas are way too far away from where the orcs landed (and the orcs had no idea they existed), & are not especially habitable either. The orcs could not settle in a jungle, and Desolace is desolate and unappealing.

Durotar may be a desert, but it contains the floodplain of the Southfury River. Presumably, the orcs get most of their food by farming this floodplain. The location of Orgrimmar is extremely defensible, it's right next to the river, and has access to a mediocre but still serviceable port. It also has close access to the natural resources of Ashenvale and Azshara, and commands the geographic confluence of Ashenvale, Azshara, Durotar and the Barrens.

One place it might have been easier to settle is at the mouth of the Southfury River. But that location doesn't have the defensive advantages of the Orgrimmar canyons. For an embattled people like the orcs it's reasonable Thrall thought the defensive advantage was important.

[Super Dickmann]

Thrall tells us directly he did it for penance, it's not inference. Nor did he do it because the land was unclaimed or peaceful, he had no issue with wiping out the harpies, quillboar and the other mongrel races that you have a morality card to kill and take the land of no problem.

As a better location, both Azshara, which the goblins later inhabit no problem and the Barrens/Mulgore would be less crap. The latter even brings them together with the tauren and helps foster more camaraderie in the Horde.

[Grazrug]

Thrall tells us directly he did it for penance, it's not inference. Nor did he do it because the land was unclaimed or peaceful, he had no issue with wiping out the harpies, quillboar and the other mongrel races that you have a morality card to kill and take the land of no problem.

As a better location, both Azshara, which the goblins later inhabit no problem and the Barrens/Mulgore would be less crap. The latter even brings them together with the tauren and helps foster more camaraderie in the Horde.

If orgrimmar had been built directly on the ocean side it would be easier to trade via ship transport. But even that was not hard enough for green Jesus.

[EbaumsTipster]

They did it because the devs thought savannah desert orcs were cool, moreso than any lore reason.

[Jastall]

The whole penance thing is offhandedly mentioned in one book and never referenced again by anyone neither in that book nor in-game, as far as I remember at least. Thrall himself certainly doesn't bring up the subject. It's some stupid plot point conjured from thin air to vilify him in order to prepare the playerbase for Garrosh. Much like pretty much every plot point in and during Cata regarding the faction war, Blizzard relegating them to books that close to nobody read makes the entire story come out of a schizophrenic mess and we don't even know what is or isn't canon in there because Blizzard sure doesn't give a flying fuck themselves, see the Alliance fleet being decimated in Tides of War while Varian magically has 200 ships at the start of Mists not too long afterwards.

Not that it matters, because the game itself portrays Durotar as a place where things grow just fine, that borders the Barrens which are filled with game, the Orcs have just as many farms as the humans in Elwynn, and oh yeah, they have an entire uncontested stretch of coast literally right next to Orgrimmar and several stable trading partners thanks to ships, roads to Ratchet and zeppelins. The Orcs starving in these conditions makes no sense whatsoever unless they grossly mismanage their resources or deliberately shun sources of food. In a world where Dun Morogh, a frozen shithole, can accommodate both Dwarves and Gnomes I really fail to see how Durotar would be such a barren wasteland.

It would make more sense had the Cataclysm devastated the farms and riled up water elementals so much that fishing isn't really feasible anymore, and the general lack of safety from Deathwing's return cut off other potential sources of food for Orgrimmar causing starvation. A temporary problem, but one Garrosh would react to promptly and decisively as was his wont. Inventing this plot point of Durotar being barren and never reflecting it in-game was quite stupid, if part for the course for Cata's awful, awful storytelling.

[Feanoro]

Penance was a flat out retcon, designed to give an excuse for Garrosh. Thrall settled them in Durotar because the orcs thought it looked like Draenor.

Anything else I'd say on this has been better covered by @Jastall.

[Surfd]

Thrall tells us directly he did it for penance, it's not inference. Nor did he do it because the land was unclaimed or peaceful, he had no issue with wiping out the harpies, quillboar and the other mongrel races that you have a morality card to kill and take the land of no problem.

That's a fantastic strawman argument there: Yes, lets pretend the Orcs are evil for killing harpies, quillboar and centaur. I mean, it's not like the other sentient races of Kalimdor don't consider them all to be barely one step above vermin as well, and haven't done so for literally centuries longer than the Orcs ever existed on Azeroth. I guess the Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes should get a, what did you call it, "morality card" pass for their continued campaigns to basically wage genocide on the Kobolds and murlocks and other "Mongrel races" of the Eastern Kingdoms wherever they find them then?

[Mungho]

Thrall tells us directly he did it for penance, it's not inference. Nor did he do it because the land was unclaimed or peaceful, he had no issue with wiping out the harpies, quillboar and the other mongrel races that you have a morality card to kill and take the land of no problem.

As a better location, both Azshara, which the goblins later inhabit no problem and the Barrens/Mulgore would be less crap. The latter even brings them together with the tauren and helps foster more camaraderie in the Horde.

That's what I've often thought. Mulgore is nice and fertile, as well as very far from night elf lands(well except Feralas, though they didn't seem to be interested in it back then). The orcs and trolls should have joined with the tauren there and made a cool metropolis, or at least separate cities close to each other. If Thrall had put ashore near at the Barrens coast and done that, they would have never bothered the night elves at all(of course, they had to settle in Durotar, or there would be no conflict for the game).

[Super Dickmann]

That's a fantastic strawman argument there: Yes, lets pretend the Orcs are evil for killing harpies, quillboar and centaur. I mean, it's not like the other sentient races of Kalimdor don't consider them all to be barely one step above vermin as well, and haven't done so for literally centuries longer than the Orcs ever existed on Azeroth. I guess the Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes should get a, what did you call it, "morality card" pass for their continued campaigns to basically wage genocide on the Kobolds and murlocks and other "Mongrel races" of the Eastern Kingdoms wherever they find them then?

I don't give a flying shit about any of those races and neither do any of the in-game factions, that's my point - there being naga in Azshara is no valid reason not to go there since Thrall didn't have an issue fighting for that land. He wasn't motivated by avoiding conflict - he was motivated in the old version by it looking like Draenor, back when Draenor was called the Red World for a reason and later by his aim of penance, which to answer @Jastall was present in Wrath in both direct dialogue and in the side-story Glory, then showed up in Garrosh's story and was a plot point in the book. Durotar's implied deprivation goes back to its visual design in Vanilla and the fact that the Warsong Lumber Camp was allowed and encouraged to exist. It's a retcon, but a necessary one, to enable conflict and not at all implausible given what a glance at the barren landscape would tell you. It's more barren than the place literally called the Barrens.

@Mungho

Disregarding the needs of a game where putting them in Durotar to cause conflict was indeed the best choice, especially in the Wrath+ version of Durotar, since it enabled the largest gamut of stories, the best choice imo would be Mulgore - no major enemy forces, gives room to build stronger bonds between the tauren and orcs and is rich in resources. The one issue with it is the trolls, because they wouldn't really have an Echo Isles style habitat suitable for them.

[Varodoc]

Orgrimmar was built on a strategic location, as the only entrances through the city are narrow choke points between mountain ranges. Garrosh and then Sylvanas could have defended the city for a long time despite having smaller armies than the invaders.

[kansor]

Azshara, which the goblins later inhabit no problem

Goblins with high tech and the support of the modern Horde taking + fortifying an island (that didn't exist before Cata) is different from straggling low-tech orc survivors. Naga would be a continuing problem for orcs in Azshara because they would be relying on the sea for food. Naga are stronger than quilboars and murlocs.

Barrens/Mulgore would be less crap.

Alliance would have taken the entire coast of Kalimdor and hedged them in. Horde would be screwed. Azshara is arguable, this seems like a bad idea.

[Razion]

It was penance. It's stated.
In Durotar they have to fight off Quilboar, Harpies, etc.
If they wanted to have uncontested land they would've been better off settling in Mulgore with the Tauren.
The only real concern with Orcs settling in Mulgore is if they ended up disturbing ancestral burial grounds. But Thrall was a reasonable leader, and I think the Orcs would have listened to Thrall in respect for the Tauren's heritage. But if the Orcs didn't end up hosting up in Durotar, the Trolls would've been a lot more vulnerable, and who knows what trouble the other tribes (and Naga) would have wrought on the Darkspear if they didn't have the protection of the Orcs. But maybe the Darkspear also should have settled in Mulgore with the Tauren and Orcs. Might have been better for everyone. There might have been a lot less war.

[kansor]

the best choice imo would be Mulgore - no major enemy forces, gives room to build stronger bonds between the tauren and orcs and is rich in resources.

To expand, Mulgore as it appears in WOW (ringed by cliffs with only 1 entrance -- wasn't it open land in WC3?) would be very defensible, keep Alliance at Great Gate and live off your farms, but would spell doom for Horde as superpower, since you'd basically get the Alliance penning up the Horde in Mulgore and controlling everything else.

[Powerogue]

The main thing is it was a place that wasn't taken. Goblin cartels and alliance settlements dotted the Barrens, most of the area to the north was either nelves or naga, and yeah there's room in Mulgore but I doubt the tauren would have approved of having their pristine hunting plains covered in spikes.

The orcs are a hardy people who managed to eke out a living there, and Thrall was an intelligent leader who secured many alliances who provided them with the resources they didn't have immediate access to.

People use one line from a Garrosh-loving expansionist who we kill in WotLK and act like that means all the orcs were living in misery. She was, because Garrosh flooded her head with ideas of how, even though they had enough to survive, they could have more. There's a reason those ideas were most prominent in the young orcs who had been born on this planet, with nothing but stories from the elders to go off of warning against the consequences of greedy conquest.

[cparle87]

Thrall tells us directly he did it for penance, it's not inference. Nor did he do it because the land was unclaimed or peaceful, he had no issue with wiping out the harpies, quillboar and the other mongrel races that you have a morality card to kill and take the land of no problem.

As a better location, both Azshara, which the goblins later inhabit no problem and the Barrens/Mulgore would be less crap. The latter even brings them together with the tauren and helps foster more camaraderie in the Horde.

When exactly did he say this? Far as I know the only source of this information is Magatha Grimtotem, who was clearly interested in sowing discord amongst the Horde leadership at the time. Considering she was the one who kick-started Garrosh's defiance against Thrall, and later was the one who Garrosh allowed to "bless" his weapon during his duel with Cairne I wouldn't trust anything she says without another source.

[Super Dickmann]

Goblins with high tech and the support of the modern Horde taking + fortifying an island (that didn't exist before Cata) is different from straggling low-tech orc survivors. Naga would be a continuing problem for orcs in Azshara because they would be relying on the sea for food. Naga are stronger than quilboars and murlocs.


Alliance would have taken the entire coast of Kalimdor and hedged them in. Horde would be screwed. Azshara is arguable, this seems like a bad idea.

The goblins consisted of the refugees of one, very large ship. Though as we argue these things, most of this takes meta knowledge into account - Thrall didn't know that there were naga there, he knew that he could take the quillboar and ditto, the night elves weren't materially different to Grom at first, it's only later that they built bonds over them. The orcs never had trouble with fighting for their land.

More than that, and @Powerogue is guilty of this more than you, many of the concerns you voice around lusher, larger and more promising lands like the Barrens and Mulgore is that Kalimdor at the time was unsettled. The goblins didn't come to trade in a land that nobody who had positions was in, they showed up later. Daelin would only come some time later after settlements would build, Theramore would only be built by people that Thrall could far more easily establish strong relations with were the orcs on a land that could sustain itself. The only land you could sign off for in-story reasons, come to think of it, is Azshara, since Thrall would know the place is haunted and as a shaman that would not jive well with him. Garrosh and the goblins didn't give a shit, but he would.

Additionally, and this is for @Powerogue specifically, the element of the orcs' deprivation comes up both in Shattering where Thrall states verbatim that this was his intention and the orcs' lack of resources is pointed out and earlier than that it comes up in both the side-story Glory and in Wrath of the Lich King quest dialogue. Thrall fucked them and he did it deliberately. This isn't some random idea Krenna had - it's something that even Gorgonna confirms when Krenna brings it up - she just views the pain as being a good thing. And Garrosh himself tells Krenna to stfu. It's his later experiences that convince him that this is the case, something we know from other sources was 100% the case. Thrall did not provide them with sustainable resources by his own admissions - he made the orcs dependant on foreign handouts and when his other failures like his turning a blind eye to what went on at the Ring of Blood and his lack of oversight over the Forsaken bit him in the ass, he and the orcs in general found out how much of a non-foundation that was and how if the night elves were to cut off supplies under a belligerent foreign power that declared war on them, they would go from merely teetering on the brink of failure to full out collapse. What Garrosh sees in Heart of War in terms of deprivation is before the Cataclysm and while the handouts were still flowing. The situation afterwards is even worse.

@cparle87

It's in the Shattering:

He had chosen Durotar for the exact reasons he had spoken—because it enabled his people to atone for the harm they had done, and because this land had toughened and strengthened them. But he had never anticipated that so many rivers would dry up; that so much of what little forest there was would be denuded by a war that, while utterly necessary, was also utterly damaging.

And we could have done the same to this one. When I rebuilt the Horde, I might indeed have taken a more fertile land. But I did not.”

Murmurs rippled throughout the hall. Cairne looked at him with narrowed eyes, no doubt wondering why Thrall was choosing to remind his people that Durotar was a difficult land at best. He nodded almost imperceptibly to his old friend, reassuring him that he knew what he was doing.

“I did not, because we had wronged this world. And yet, we were here in it, we had a right to live. To find a homeland. I chose a place that we could make our own—a land that asked of us all we could give. Living here has done much to cleanse us of the curse that so damaged us as a people. It has made us even stronger, hardier—more orclike than living in a soft land ever would.”

To note, Thrall didn't act out of malice, but a mixture of guilt by proxy, a lack of familiarity with what Draenor was like and an ignorance of the needs and wants of his people. As well as not being able to foresee that the Cataclysm would push them over the brink, which no one could have known at the time.

@Varodoc

This is an excellent piece of bait I await for someone else to nab, but you're actually wrong. Orgrimmar is said to be less defensible than Stormwind and they're right - it lacks internal supplies to live off of, its harbor is external, ergo exposed and it has three separate angles of attack and passageways to assault. Garrosh was able to defend it as well as he did because he had roboscorpions and his rebel enemy hadn't even researched pants on the tech tree.

[Thage]

It's not that picking Durotar was a bad idea in and of itself, it's that they made no attempts to irrigate the land and develop a biosphere that can support life--between orcish shamans, tauren druids, and tauren and troll shamans, Durotar could have been made into a tough but farmable land that would have supported the orcs in the long run without leaving the orc civilian populace prone to envying their neighbors for living in lands of comparative plenty, enough so that Garrosh's push into Ashenvale for supplies was generally popular among the orcs.

edit: To note, it's not that the orcs are at fault for being pissed that they live in a wasteland while their neighbors lived in rich biospheres, it's that Thrall and the rest of the ruling class made no effort to turn Durotar into a livable land via even basic irrigation and crop growth, things shaman and druids have been shown amply capable of. Indeed, by all accounts Thrall was proud of this refusal.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

edit: To note, it's not that the orcs are at fault for being pissed that they live in a wasteland while their neighbors lived in rich biospheres, it's that Thrall and the rest of the ruling class made no effort to turn Durotar into a livable land via even basic irrigation and crop growth, things shaman and druids have been shown amply capable of. Indeed, by all accounts Thrall was proud of this refusal.

<Insert some dumb comment about peacecraft cause they think dey are smurt>

<.< >.> Someone would say it.

[Combatbutler]

The main thing is it was a place that wasn't taken.

That is not true though, before the orcs waltzed in most of Durotar was Quillboar land, to this day orcs fight them and try to drive them off.

[Okacz]

"Penance" was a retcon from a terrible novel written by a terrible author. Let's face it, so many lore facts contradict each other that we gotta pick and choose sometimes. And WC III explanation is simply better. Thrall chose Durotar for:

1) Landscape resembled Hellfire Peninsula (which was sort of all of Draenor back then), easier for the Orcs to get accustomed to.
2) They needed to establish a base pronto, and the area was barely inhabited - Warcraft 3 established Kalimdor as a difficult place to settle, with tons of Centaurs and Quillboars harassing settlers, even being able to drive the Tauren from their homeland.
3) Durotar bordered with Ashenvale, which, at the time, was considered an easy source of wood. Thrall had no idea about the Night Elves having difficulties in timber trade department.
4) As someone already said here, the chokepoint - I think it was even established in Rexxars campaign that Orgrimmar was extremly difficult to besiege due to the location.

The "Penance" part is Christie Goldens asspull, that's all.