1. #45721
    Herald of the Titans D Luniz's Avatar
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    well, only if your willing to consider what they did a "collage" would that "apology" be valid


    they just gave the equivalent of saying "Sorry for stopping on your lawn" after plowing into your living room.
    "Law and Order", lots of places have had that, Russia, North Korea, Saddam's Iraq.
    Laws can be made to enforce order of cruelty and brutality.
    Equality and Justice, that is how you have peace and a society that benefits all.

  2. #45722
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    I wouldn't believe any side on this, both are extremely biased and knowing a bit of internet magic you can make screenshots of any site posting pics of naked furry girls or hitler riding unicorn
    lol

    "They were framed, I tells ya!!!"

    Maybe if Fox weren't such blatant unrepentant propagandists, they might actually get the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. Until then, I'm going to go with my initial reaction: lol
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2020-06-13 at 08:28 PM.

  3. #45723
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    I wouldn't believe any side on this, both are extremely biased and knowing a bit of internet magic you can make screenshots of any site posting pics of naked furry girls or hitler riding unicorn
    Well, then, it's a good thing that there are records of the internet-past, so that people can see for themselves.

    You know, to save us from having to listen to people who are intentionally trying to distort the truth.


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  4. #45724
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    There's multiple parts where servants of God flat-out kill people.
    "Multiple" kinda unsells it a bit.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Exampl...killing_people

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
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  5. #45725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Are...are you suggesting owning slaves is going to come back into fashion? Because I personally am of the idea that slave owning will never be American ever again.
    No, if you read the post I'm clearly saying that the people who took part in slavery were bad but the idea that we should disown X person from hundreds of years ago because they were a bad person in modern context is dumb because everybody from hundreds of years ago is a bad person in modern context. It's like saying we should all burn photos of our great grandparents because they were almost certainly racist.

    I'm not sure how clearer it can be:
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    If people want to get rid of X statue because he was into slavery that's cool but they should also be in favour of removing practically every statue erected before the year 2000 as approximately 100% of them represent a slaver or a racist or a homophobe or a misogynist or a transphobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Bullshit. Despite a considerable amount of after-the-fact historical revisionism, the South was EXTREMELY clear that they were seceding primarily because the North wanted to abolish slavery, and they didn't.
    Wall of text follows
    I think you misunderstood what I meant, I wasn't saying that slavery didn't play a part in the break out of the US civil war lol, I was pointing out that Hollywood has romanticised the idea that it was a simple good vs bad struggle when that's bullshit.

    The north wasn't anti slavery because it was bad for slaves, they were anti-slavery because it was bad for their economics, they didn't like that plantations were superior economically to farms and they were worried about it spreading. It wasn't a war between evil southern racists who thought black people were equal to cattle and heroic northern progressives who wanted to free the slaves and enshrine them as equal citizens. It was a war between southern racists who thought black people were equal to cattle and norther racists who thought black people were equal to cattle. Why do you think it took another 100+ years for segregation to end.


    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    So when you try to say that slavery only came into play as the last act of a desperate President Lincoln...
    It's a matter of historical fact that Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation primarily to prevent France/Britain from officially recognising the CSA as a legitimate nation and directly supporting it (them doing so would have effectively ended the norths chances for reunification and forced it to negotiate terms of secession, thus in turn ending Lincoln's chances of re-election).

    One noteworthy fact that often gets overlooked is that it's highly likely this would already have happened at this point had Russia (the USA's main ally at this point in time) not sent their navy to help defend New York and San Francisco during the civil war.

  6. #45726
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    I wonder how up for destroying confederate statues people would be if each one required the destruction of a civil war era union statue? After all that war was essentially a economic war between a bunch of northern racists and a bunch of southern racists fighting over farms vs plantations. Lincoln didn't throw the slavery card in until he realised he was going to lose the war and any chance of re-election unless he did something drastic.
    Absolute bullshit. The South had absolutely no chance of winning during the war. They didn't have the numbers, the industry, the weapons to take on the north. Their whole strategy was somehow UK and France forget that they already abolished slavery and rush into the defence of the confederacy. Hint, outside of some crazies saying Britain and France thought about it, they didn't. Private firms in Britain and the US almost accidentally did something to harm relations but that was it. The powers in the UK were having none of the siding with slavers pov and France was busy in Mexico at the time.

    The north was fighting with 2 hands and 1 leg self-tied behind their backs for the first few years because they hoped the confederacy would see sense and on their own return to the union. Especially since the south was already under blockade. The Mississippi was in full union hands (Louisianna fell early to the Union to the point it was part of the 1864 presidential elections. Same as Tennessee. If the Union entered the war all guns blazing then the war would have ended in less than a year due to the disparity between the north and south.

  7. #45727
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    would be if each one required the destruction of a civil war era union statue? After all that war was essentially a economic war between a bunch of northern racists and a bunch of southern racists fighting over farms vs plantations. Lincoln didn't throw the slavery card in until he realised he was going to lose the war and any chance of re-election unless he did something drastic.
    Works for me. Statues are by definition an over-simplification of a human being, it is propagandized dumbed-down history at best.

  8. #45728
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    I'm not sure how clearer it can be:
    Neither am I. People who were willing to kill to own slaves, die to own slaves, and become traitors to their own country to own slaves are dragged off their pedestal and thrown in the river while people cheer.. Because this is the 21st century and we're done handwaving slavery with "but the North had racists".

    Stop handwaving slavery. Your style went out of fashion 150 years ago. The Civil War is over, the slavers lost, get over it.

  9. #45729
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    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    One of the big problems with the debate around historical statues is IMO the romantic idea of good vs bad people seem to have.

    Back in the days of the slave trade there were essentially three types of people, the slaves, the people actively engaging in slavery, and the people who wanted to be actively engaging in slavery but couldn't afford it. If people want to get rid of X statue because he was into slavery that's cool but they should also be in favour of removing practically every statue erected before the year 2000 as approximately 100% of them represent a slaver or a racist or a homophobe or a misogynist or a transphobe. Hell they should be campaigning to pull down mount Rushmore while they're at it. And while they're at that they may wanna burn any pictures/paintings they have of their great grandparents or any older ancestors because they would have been just as bigoted.

    I wonder how up for destroying confederate statues people would be if each one required the destruction of a civil war era union statue? After all that war was essentially a economic war between a bunch of northern racists and a bunch of southern racists fighting over farms vs plantations. Lincoln didn't throw the slavery card in until he realised he was going to lose the war and any chance of re-election unless he did something drastic.
    Here we go, hot takes about "lets not be too hasty with judging historical racists" from the country that brought you the Bengal Famine.

    In a word: No. It was not an "economic war" any more than all wars are "economic wars"; people at the time understood it was about slavery, and the only reason it is in question now is because of a century long campaign of historical revisionism by American whites. This is the necessary equivalent of denazification; Reconstruction was ended far, far too soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  10. #45730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Absolute bullshit. The South had absolutely no chance of winning during the war.
    Wrong, your forgetting it was the north who were fighting to conquer the other side, the south were simply fighting to be free of the north, they didn't need to actually beat them just reach a point where they other side no longer had the will to win (just like how Vietnam defeated the USA). And it very nearly happened, if Lincoln hadn't made the Emancipation Proclamation then France and the UK were going to recognise the CSA as a legitimate nation and begin trading with/supporting it (the UK were especially up for it as the elites were still annoyed with the USA). This would already have happened had Russia not sent its navy to protect New York/San Francisco, and if it had happened then Lincoln would have had no choice but to agree to terms of secession and kiss re-election goodbye.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Stop handwaving slavery.
    Yes, me calling slavers, racists, homophones and transphobes bad/evil people is handwaving >.>

  11. #45731
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    The north wasn't anti slavery because it was bad for slaves, they were anti-slavery because it was bad for their economics, they didn't like that plantations were superior economically to farms and they were worried about it spreading. It wasn't a war between evil southern racists who thought black people were equal to cattle and heroic northern progressives who wanted to free the slaves and enshrine them as equal citizens.
    Read Alexander H. Stephen's cornerstone speech, that I pasted above. He LITERALLY SAYS that the North wanted to abolish slavery because they thought it was immoral, and it was the position of the South that they were wrong because black people were inferior and only fit for slave labor, and that concept was the very foundation of the Confederacy's existence.

    This isn't any sort of modern romanticism, it's literally in the founding principles of the Confederacy.

  12. #45732
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    No, if you read the post I'm clearly saying that the people who took part in slavery were bad but the idea that we should disown X person from hundreds of years ago because they were a bad person in modern context is dumb because everybody from hundreds of years ago is a bad person in modern context.
    Hard to argue that the moral context didn't exist when they fought a war over it. Everything these people stood for had to be eradicated through four years of bloody conflict, no modern spin needed.
    /s

  13. #45733
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    I feel we're getting distracted by one poster, hopefully in good faith, trying to make this a thread about how the South was justified to own humans as property. I'm going to suggest that's a thread worth doing on its own, stop responding myself (yeah I messed up) and return to topic. I ask people to join me.

    Kim Jong Un's sister threatens military action against Seoul over declining relations

    We've heard a lot about her recently, haven't we? Man, that Nobel Prize is getting further and further away. Leaving aside the obvious parallels to derailing attempts, the sister was pretty angry.

    Getting stronger day by day are the unanimous voices of all our people demanding for surely settling accounts with the riff-raff who dared hurt the absolute prestige of our Supreme Leader representing our country and its great dignity and flied rubbish to the inviolable territory of our side and with those who connived at such hooliganism, whatever may happen.

    The judgment that we should force the betrayers and human scum to pay the dearest price for their crimes and the retaliatory action plans we have made on this basis have become a firm public opinion at home, not part of the work of the field in charge of the affairs with enemy. It is necessary to make them keenly feel what they have done and what inviolability they hurt amiss.
    She then ordered the NK military on standby alert.

    This could all be posturing, of course. People who want to be dictators, including dictators, posture a lot. Especially fat ones. But I can't say I remember hearing a lot of "prepare for invasion" talk during, say, the last 25 years or so. Incidentally, this is all over South Korea's leaflets being basically slid under the door.

    The Secret Service on Saturday retracted its initial statement that no one in the agency used tear gas or pepper spray to forcibly clear peaceful protesters before President Trump's photo-op at the historic St. John’s Episcopal Church last week.

    Hmm. That's interesting. They are trying to say it was a single SS agent who was being attacked who used pepper spray to defend himself. The US Park Police statement, however, has not been retracted.

    An ethics watchdog group has contacted the FBI to look into the IG Trump fired for investigating Pompeo. The accused crime is, big surprise, obstructing justice.

    As Michigan continues to wait on federal aid for those dam bursts/floods, NBC News points out that the US budget for fixing dams was about $10 million, and it's likely to cost about $20 billion. There are about 90,000 dams in the US, 15,000 are considered high hazard, and 3,000 of those don't have emergency plans with state/local officials in case of trouble. This sounds like something an Infrastructure Week could fix.

    And Florida posts its highest-ever coronavirus cases. Again.

  14. #45734
    Trump still hasn't totally figured out how to drink water

    Video is everywhere on my feed, showing Trump having a difficult time taking a drink of water especially with his right hand. Trump needs his left to lift and then tip the water, while his right arm barely supports the water.

    Now Trumpkins you went batshit crazy over Hillary tripping, when it was nothing. Obviously something is wrong with Trump. Declining health?
    Democrats are the best! I will never ever question a Democrat again. I LOVE the Democrats!

  15. #45735
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Oh...uh...maybe he can't lift his arms.

  16. #45736
    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Trump still hasn't totally figured out how to drink water

    Video is everywhere on my feed, showing Trump having a difficult time taking a drink of water especially with his right hand. Trump needs his left to lift and then tip the water, while his right arm barely supports the water.

    Now Trumpkins you went batshit crazy over Hillary tripping, when it was nothing. Obviously something is wrong with Trump. Declining health?
    I was looking at that a couple of times, before I saw any commentary, and that arm not working is...weird. Because he clearly can't get it to his mouth, and needs help from the left. Degenerative disease...? Where the fuck is House when we need him.

  17. #45737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Oh...uh...maybe he can't lift his arms.
    Face....Arms.....Speech....

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
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  18. #45738
    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Trump still hasn't totally figured out how to drink water

    Video is everywhere on my feed, showing Trump having a difficult time taking a drink of water especially with his right hand. Trump needs his left to lift and then tip the water, while his right arm barely supports the water.

    Now Trumpkins you went batshit crazy over Hillary tripping, when it was nothing. Obviously something is wrong with Trump. Declining health?
    I have Myasthenia Gravis and have had that exact issue sometimes with not being able to lift a glass with just one hand. I'll even do what Trump did in this clip, I'll try to lift the glass and only manage to get it halfway and have to use the other hand to lift it the rest of the way. Myasthenia is something you can get at any age, I was six when I was diagnosed, but it's more common in men who are over 60 which means someone Trump's age.

  19. #45739
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKing View Post
    I have Myasthenia Gravis
    It's been ages since high school Latin, but...that looks like "severe weakness"?

  20. #45740
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    While everyone is focused on how heavy a glass of water is Trump is trying to explain his inability to walk down a gently sloped ramp.



    Such a special little guy.
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