Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Kellhound]

Both will run the Aguila mini shells, not much recoil there and the TS12 tips the scales with a resounding 30+1 capacity when running the minis.

Mini shells defeat the advantages of a 12ga., having less shot at lower velocities. They just don't hit nearly as hard. Plus, 30+1 isn't really an advantage when 5 shots pretty much universally end home defense issues, and when shorter shells have a higher failure to feed rate.

[StillMcfuu]

An AR makes a very practical static home defense firearm. Unless you have to go out of a secure defensive area to rescue a family member, it is better to let an intruder come to you and not the other way around.

There are a lot of advantages to an AR15 or other rifle for home defense, but it's certainly not the best thing to be sneaking around with in your boxers, no.
If someone is smashing in your front door though?

OTOH, I've never liked the suggestion of a shotgun for home defense at all, all the disadvantages you mention, but also more recoil and less rounds. Meh. Sure I have an SBS, but it's as much because I liked the JIC tube as anything.

You guys are getting to my point pretty quickly, AR is great if you are setting up an ambush (although I could argue the overpenatrative ballistics of an AR at close range makes it worse than a pistol). But the only way you will ever be able to set up an ambush is if you know someone is coming, and you live alone. Someone spending significant time banging down your door is not going to happen outside of end of the world scenarios.
The time to use a weapon is always going to be the most inconvenient. The benefits of an AR in cqb just don't match that well with the use-case scenario. Even magazine capacity, if multiple people enter your home and the act of you putting 2 shots into their buddies sternum doesn't cause them to flee, you are likely in for an unpleasant death regardless of your magazine capacity.

I just like to be real about this, ARs aren't well suited for CQB, they were designed with 200 to 300m engagements in mind, as was the ammo. You really want a home defense weapon that isn't a pistol, get an MP5 or some other actual short barrel, high stopping power short range weapon.

[Kellhound]

You guys are getting to my point pretty quickly, AR is great if you are setting up an ambush (although I could argue the overpenatrative ballistics of an AR at close range makes it worse than a pistol). But the only way you will ever be able to set up an ambush is if you know someone is coming, and you live alone. Someone spending significant time banging down your door is not going to happen outside of end of the world scenarios.
The time to use a weapon is always going to be the most inconvenient. The benefits of an AR in cqb just don't match that well with the use-case scenario. Even magazine capacity, if multiple people enter your home and the act of you putting 2 shots into their buddies sternum doesn't cause them to flee, you are likely in for an unpleasant death regardless of your magazine capacity.

I just like to be real about this, ARs aren't well suited for CQB, they were designed with 200 to 300m engagements in mind, as was the ammo. You really want a home defense weapon that isn't a pistol, get an MP5 or some other actual short barrel, high stopping power short range weapon.

I have two dogs that would tell me if anyone was in my house, they are quite effective at this. When properly loaded, an AR isnt going to over penetrate. Also, a legal MP-5 type rifle isn't going to be much shorter than a M-4 style AR. Of course a pistol based AR with brace is quite short.

[Ghostpanther]

You guys are getting to my point pretty quickly, AR is great if you are setting up an ambush (although I could argue the overpenatrative ballistics of an AR at close range makes it worse than a pistol). But the only way you will ever be able to set up an ambush is if you know someone is coming, and you live alone. Someone spending significant time banging down your door is not going to happen outside of end of the world scenarios.
The time to use a weapon is always going to be the most inconvenient. The benefits of an AR in cqb just don't match that well with the use-case scenario. Even magazine capacity, if multiple people enter your home and the act of you putting 2 shots into their buddies sternum doesn't cause them to flee, you are likely in for an unpleasant death regardless of your magazine capacity.

I just like to be real about this, ARs aren't well suited for CQB, they were designed with 200 to 300m engagements in mind, as was the ammo. You really want a home defense weapon that isn't a pistol, get an MP5 or some other actual short barrel, high stopping power short range weapon.

Most people are not going to be that good with a handgun. Even the police will miss a lot in shootings with a handgun. If someone is breaking into my home and I feel I have time to grab one of my rifles over a handgun? I will grab the rifle every single time. There is a reason the swat teams will be using a rifle if they need to break into a building, even in some close quarters.

The AR-15 is a excellent home defense weapon overall. Sure there may be circumstances where a handgun would be a better choice in a confined space. But there are a lot of stories of home owners and shop owners successfully defending themselves using rifles and esp. a AR-15.

[Svifnymr]

You guys are getting to my point pretty quickly, AR is great if you are setting up an ambush (although I could argue the overpenatrative ballistics of an AR at close range makes it worse than a pistol).

5.56 isn't much worse vs most other ammo's for over penetration really. Everything goes through a few walls anyway.

But the only way you will ever be able to set up an ambush is if you know someone is coming, and you live alone. Someone spending significant time banging down your door is not going to happen outside of end of the world scenarios.

Roving bands of plague looters searching for toilet paper? Rioters trying to burn your house down? By July we'll find out that Assassin Hornets contain the t-virus. I think the hurricanes are scheduled for September and the seas will boil in November.

The time to use a weapon is always going to be the most inconvenient. The benefits of an AR in cqb just don't match that well with the use-case scenario. Even magazine capacity, if multiple people enter your home and the act of you putting 2 shots into their buddies sternum doesn't cause them to flee, you are likely in for an unpleasant death regardless of your magazine capacity.

I just like to be real about this, ARs aren't well suited for CQB, they were designed with 200 to 300m engagements in mind, as was the ammo. You really want a home defense weapon that isn't a pistol, get an MP5 or some other actual short barrel, high stopping power short range weapon.

There's a wide variety of 5.56 ammo now, designed with CQB and SBR's in mind. And of course, the "over penetration" you mentioned earlier will help if you've got folks hiding behind things as they're assaulting your position in some EOTWAWKI scenario. (62gr penetrator needed, sure.)

Mostly though, luckily at this moment we're not limited to one gun and he even mentioned getting a handgun & rifle, so the point is redundant. If someone's kicking on your door, grab both, if you heard a bump in the night, maybe grab the handgun alone. More options are better options and guns hold their value fairly well in my experience.

Oh, and the one thing I like about shotguns (and lever guns too) is the ability to reload the internal magazine as your go, rather than all or nothing.

[Kellhound]

Most people are not going to be that good with a handgun. Even the police will miss a lot in shootings with a handgun. If someone is breaking into my home and I feel I have time to grab one of my rifles over a handgun? I will grab the rifle every single time. There is a reason the swat teams will be using a rifle if they need to break into a building, even in some close quarters.

The AR-15 is a excellent home defense weapon overall. Sure there may be circumstances where a handgun would be a better choice in a confined space. But there are a lot of stories of home owners and shop owners successfully defending themselves using rifles and esp. a AR-15.

I would go with a long gun for its knock down power. At close range I am not any better with a rifle than a pistol under duress.

[Ghostpanther]

I would go with a long gun for its knock down power. At close range I am not any better with a rifle than a pistol under duress.

Myself. I am a lot more accurate with a rifle. I think most people are. My wife is very accurate with her .22 cal lever action Marlin, more so than she is with any .22 handgun for example.

I feel I have more control of the weapon if I am shooting a rifle. But each to his own and there are shooters who are very accurate with handguns. I am not one of those however.

[Kellhound]

Myself. I am a lot more accurate with a rifle. I think most people are. My wife is very accurate with her .22 cal lever action Marlin, more so than she is with any .22 handgun for example.

I feel I have more control of the weapon if I am shooting a rifle. But each to his own and there are shooters who are very accurate with handguns. I am not one of those however.

I am an expert marksman with a pistol. At the ranges present in my house, there is no significant difference in my accuracy. Exceed 10 yards and the rifle starts to pull away, but I can still easily hit a human sized target at 50 yards with a handgun. Mind you, I have an AR with a loaded mag in my room to back up my .40 S&W handgun because, again, the rifle has more knockdown power (and in the very odd case the intruder is wearing soft body armor, the rifle will defeat it). It is also easier to safely store a loaded handgun but still access it quickly than a rifle, which is important for a lot of people.

[Svifnymr]

I am an expert marksman with a pistol. At the ranges present in my house, there is no significant difference in my accuracy. Exceed 10 yards and the rifle starts to pull away, but I can still easily hit a human sized target at 50 yards with a handgun. Mind you, I have an AR with a loaded mag in my room to back up my .40 S&W handgun because, again, the rifle has more knockdown power (and in the very odd case the intruder is wearing soft body armor, the rifle will defeat it). It is also easier to safely store a loaded handgun but still access it quickly than a rifle, which is important for a lot of people.

Ewww, 40. I've lost all respect for you!
(just kidding!)

For length wise, once I added a silencer to the pistol, it's probably not saving me much space over the rifle, but still easier in many ways. A 223 is a very loud thing at the end of the day, as well, which can be an advantage (letting criminals/ neighbors know shits happening) and disadvantage (I mean, you'll probably be half deaf in a hallway after one shot). 300blk is more versatile, but eh. Most of it doesn't matter at the end of the day, and almost any firearm is going to handle almost any situation inside a house.

[Kellhound]

Ewww, 40. I've lost all respect for you!
(just kidding!)

For length wise, once I added a silencer to the pistol, it's probably not saving me much space over the rifle, but still easier in many ways. A 223 is a very loud thing at the end of the day, as well, which can be an advantage (letting criminals/ neighbors know shits happening) and disadvantage (I mean, you'll probably be half deaf in a hallway after one shot). 300blk is more versatile, but eh. Most of it doesn't matter at the end of the day, and almost any firearm is going to handle almost any situation inside a house.

Sorry, not part of the 9mm mafia, I prefer higher mass, diameter, and energy over super-duper high-tech bullets. (Plus it was a steal, and I don't have a .45 at the moment!). If I am going with a smaller bullet, it would be a hot loaded .357 Mag.

Honestly, if I have to discharge a firearm in self defense, hearing loss is not going to be of major concern (and mine isn't so great anymore anyway).

[Zan15]

Man the gun control thread has just turned into one big circle jerk about shopping for guns hasn't it? with a little bragging mixed into the bunch.
Seems a tad bit off topic to keep the thread active

[Kellhound]

Man the gun control thread has just turned into one big circle jerk about shopping for guns hasn't it? with a little bragging mixed into the bunch.
Seems a tad bit off topic to keep the thread active

We ARE talking about gun control, proper gun control. As in how to control a gun.

[Mayhem]

We ARE talking about gun control, proper gun control. As in how to control a gun.

Don't drown in all that bullshit. Read the OP and write that again, maybe without that smug face. People should trust you with a gun when you can't even stay on topic on a forum.

You and your gun touting buddies managed to turn a thread discussing gun control policies into a gun show, well done, be proud of yourselves, maybe don't ever talk about getting offtopic anywhere or tell others to get back on topic, you know just for consistency sake.

You and every other 2nd amendment champion don't actually give a shit about the right anyway. Else you wouldn't be constantly contradicting each other or simply don't give a fuck if any of your buddies defend murder. You don't even care if the 2nd leads to people being killed for exercising said right. No outrage, no protest, fuck it not even recognizing it. You don't want impartial studies produced to back you up because deep down, you know it's all bullshit.

[Kellhound]

Don't drown in all that bullshit. Read the OP and write that again, maybe without that smug face. People should trust you with a gun when you can't even stay on topic on a forum.

You and your gun touting buddies managed to turn a thread discussing gun control policies into a gun show, well done, be proud of yourselves, maybe don't ever talk about getting offtopic anywhere or tell others to get back on topic, you know just for consistency sake.

You and every other 2nd amendment champion don't actually give a shit about the right anyway. Else you wouldn't be constantly contradicting each other or simply don't give a fuck if any of your buddies defend murder. You don't even care if the 2nd leads to people being killed for exercising said right. No outrage, no protest, fuck it not even recognizing it. You don't want impartial studies produced to back you up because deep down, you know it's all bullshit.

Not being able to stay on topic is a very odd reason for people to trust me with a gun. I put more faith in my 40 years of experience and clean criminal record as better reasons.

If you want to equate self defense to murder, then yes I defend it, because I am a firm believer in self defense.

And really, there are 55000 posts on this thread, all gun related discussions end up here. You also know full well that if there was a thread on gun ownership there would be just as much discussion about restricting them as there is here, so it would be pointless to have two threads.

[the game]

Not being able to stay on topic is a very odd reason for people to trust me with a gun. I put more faith in my 40 years of experience and clean criminal record as better reasons.

If you want to equate self defense to murder, then yes I defend it, because I am a firm believer in self defense.

And really, there are 55000 posts on this thread, all gun related discussions end up here. You also know full well that if there was a thread on gun ownership there would be just as much discussion about restricting them as there is here, so it would be pointless to have two threads.

Also the moderators would just close any gun discussion threads and tell us to bring it to this thread.

[Mayhem]

Not being able to stay on topic is a very odd reason for people to trust me with a gun. I put more faith in my 40 years of experience and clean criminal record as better reasons.

Sure you do. Well at least you agree now that you are off-topic, so that's something.

If you want to equate self defense to murder, then yes I defend it, because I am a firm believer in self defense.

No, defending actual murder.

And really, there are 55000 posts on this thread, all gun related discussions end up here. You also know full well that if there was a thread on gun ownership there would be just as much discussion about restricting them as there is here, so it would be pointless to have two threads.

If you had a thread on gun-ownership I wouldn't be there, and if there were people trying to discuss restriction I would help you report their posts every time for being off-topic.

[Kellhound]

Sure you do. Well at least you agree now that you are off-topic, so that's something.



No, defending actual murder.



If you had a thread on gun-ownership I wouldn't be there, and if there were people trying to discuss restriction I would help you report their posts every time for being off-topic.

I was just commenting on your statement that being off topic was a reason for people to trust me with a gun.

I dont defend murder, as it is defined as a crime in the US.

Uh, they only way you could report posts on such a thread is to be on it.....

[Mayhem]

I was just commenting on your statement that being off topic was a reason for people to trust me with a gun.

Ok, then I take it back and you haven't read the OP in the meantime.

I dont defend murder, as it is defined as a crime in the US.

You seem to have no problem with people defending murder if they also happen to be 2nd amendment advocates though.

Uh, they only way you could report posts on such a thread is to be on it.....

Woah, you got me there, for reporting posts, I'd have to open the thread, not participate though, hence the I'd help you because I'd need you to tell me people are derailing the thread.

[Kellhound]

Ok, then I take it back and you haven't read the OP in the meantime.



You seem to have no problem with people defending murder if they also happen to be 2nd amendment advocates though.



Woah, you got me there, for reporting posts, I'd have to open the thread, not participate though, hence the I'd help you because I'd need you to tell me people are derailing the thread.

I know what the original post YEARS ago was, but it has long ago morphed into the general firearms discussion.

I do not recall ever defending a murderer, I only defend self defense.

[Ghostpanther]

I am an expert marksman with a pistol. At the ranges present in my house, there is no significant difference in my accuracy. Exceed 10 yards and the rifle starts to pull away, but I can still easily hit a human sized target at 50 yards with a handgun. Mind you, I have an AR with a loaded mag in my room to back up my .40 S&W handgun because, again, the rifle has more knockdown power (and in the very odd case the intruder is wearing soft body armor, the rifle will defeat it). It is also easier to safely store a loaded handgun but still access it quickly than a rifle, which is important for a lot of people.

Absolutely. Which is why I said, if I feel I have time, I will pick the rifle over the handgun every single time.

- - - Updated - - -

Also the moderators would just close any gun discussion threads and tell us to bring it to this thread.

This thread is not just about gun control, but a thread for firearm discussion in general and it's application in several circumstances. The moderators even stated such. Those who do not think it is, can report the posts. Actually it is best to ignore them, like I do.