Four British neo-Nazis Jailed on Terrorism Charges

[kail]

If you're suggesting we should treat racism as a mental illness then I'm all for that.

Fine, but not a crime.

[Felya]

Fine, but not a crime.

Kind of like pedophilia, before they act on it? They can post pictures with... I don’t know, what is the equivalent for holding up machete, while exposing support for an ideology to murder people?

Edit: Can we arrest nazis if they have pictures of the Holocaust in their porn folder?

Edit 2: In case you think that’s far fetched, the children of minorities that nazis want to exterminate, would also be exterminated. The nazis that shot up schools and churches, included children. When would have been an appropriate time to arrest, the nazi that slaughtered children in a camp a bunch of years ago?

[kail]

What does being a Nazi mean? As a Nazi, what is their goal?

They probably want anyone that isn't white and straight to be gone/dead (at worse). That or they are just using it to support nationalism. Regardless of whatever stupid reason they have to label themselves as Nazis, it's no surprise that vile people exist. Do you think that hating on a class of people (skin color, sexuality, religion) should be a crime?

[Felya]

They probably want anyone that isn't white and straight to be gone/dead (at worse). That or they are just using it to support nationalism. Regardless of whatever stupid reason they have to label themselves as Nazis, it's no surprise that vile people exist. Do you think that hating on a class of people (skin color, sexuality, religion) should be a crime?

Uhm... I think people who support for an ideology that wants people dead, should be arrested when they get emboldened enough in said ideology, that they hold Hitler beauty pageants. No, hate shouldn’t be a crime, but getting so embroiled in an ideology to murder people, that you post pictures with weapons and hold a beauty pageant for a mass murderer... the line between hate and acting on your ideological demands, gets very muddy.

I answered your question... now answer mine... The Nazi that killed a bunch of kids at a camp a bunch of years ago... at which point should he have been arrested?

Edit: Nazi and nationalist is not synonymous... using murdering people to support nationalism, is what makes them a Nazi...

[kail]

Kind of like pedophilia, before they act on it? They can post pictures with... I don’t know, what is the equivalent for holding up machete, while exposing support for an ideology to murder people?

Edit: Can we arrest nazis if they have pictures of the Holocaust in their porn folder?

Edit 2: In case you think that’s far fetched, the children of minorities that nazis want to exterminate, would also be exterminated. The nazis that shot up schools and churches, included children. When would have been an appropriate time to arrest, the nazi that slaughtered children in a camp a bunch of years ago?

Child pornography is illegal due to actual children being used for porn, so I'm for possession being a crime but mostly focused on the creators. Any other images or videos that do not involve adolescents are completely fine. Sick, sure but no one was hurt in the production and it's all some art medium in the end.

Pictures of the Holocaust is readily available to anyone but if someone had pictures of recent victims due to their prejudice, sure charge them with possession of criminal evidence.

And for your last point, if you want to act preventatively, put people under surveillance or other watchlists. Can't arrest everyone that likes Nazis or identifies as one assuming they are going to shoot up a temple or school.

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Uhm... I think people who support for an ideology that wants people dead, should be arrested when they get emboldened enough in said ideology, that they hold Hitler beauty pageants.

What's the line for that? Posting on Twitter that Jews are rats? Posting that they are better off dead? Are those words enough to throw someone in prison? My line is when a clear threat is made.

[Dezerte]

If someone acted on beliefs that end up harming others, then throw the book on them. So long as they are opinions or beliefs, then they can stay as ostracized assholes. Take pedophilia for example. I won't condone someone being imprisoned just because kids turn them on, the moment they make sexual advances towards a minor then put them on trial. Some will disagree and state that all pedophiles should be put away to protect the kids but pre-emptive imprisonment is a line I hope society does not cross.

Right, but I don't think that analogy will work when talking about (Neo)Nazis. Being a pedophile doesn't necessitate wanting to have sex with minors, whereas being a Nazi necessarily means you must support persecuting (and worse) other people. One is clearly more driven, has a goal and desire to hurt people - and we already tried Nazism once - whereas pedophilia is simply a sexual attraction.

[LeGin Tufnel]

In the meantime, in London yesterday:





and my favourite:



Injured skinhead being carried to safety by a BLM protestor.

Neo-Nazis can fuck off imo - and personally, I don't give two shits if freedom of speech is compromised in the process.

[Ripster42]

Just curious about what labeled them as a terrorist organization. Literally all I got from the article was that the organization and the four people arrested were shitty bigots. No vandalism, murder, lynching, bomb threats, bomb attempts, etc. If they are proven guilty for any of those and other crimes that directly harm others, by all means, put them away for those crimes. If just labeling yourself as a Nazi or supporter of such, my point stands.

They commit acts of violence for a political purpose. They're designated as a criminal organization. What do you call a criminal organization that commits acts of violence for political purposes? In this case, the political purpose of, at the minimum, ethnic cleansing. This is the horse you're backing.

[Felya]

Child pornography is illegal due to actual children being used for porn, so I'm for possession being a crime but mostly focused on the creators. Any other images or videos that do not involve adolescents are completely fine. Sick, sure but no one was hurt in the production and it's all some art medium in the end.

What do you mean no one was hurt? They buy the weapons and propagate the ideology online, encouraging others to join a movement to kill people. Their existence is building an industry, that leads to people shooting up schools and churches. They create a marketplace, not just for their ideas, but for all the fascist flags and paraphernalia encouraging murder.

It’s why I didn’t say porn... I asked you what the equivalent was, to which you responded with porn. Well, I’m sorry, asking for more and more images of dead minorities, such as involved in celebrating the holocaust, is encouraging similar market of ideas as other porn that relies on... less than savory.

Most of the recent church and school shootings by nazis, have involved seeking out fascist murder porn online. Jacking off to people being murdered, poses the same issue with being emboldened enough to take action. The difference is that Nazi porn is often the aftermath of their action, posted on the front page.

Pictures of the Holocaust is readily available to anyone but if someone had pictures of recent victims due to their prejudice, sure charge them with possession of criminal evidence.

Yes, that’s why I was very specific to say it was in their porn folder. It was specifically meant that they use it in celebration... as an example of what they want. Their desire... this is that art difference you mentioned before. It was there specifically and only to separate it from art and history.

And for your last point, if you want to act preventatively, put people under surveillance or other watchlists. Can't arrest everyone that likes Nazis or identifies as one assuming they are going to shoot up a temple or school.

You didn’t answer my question... nazis shooting up schools and churches is not an assumption, it’s their fucking ideology. They get arrested, when their actions become so emboldened in the ideology, that the historic next step is murder. That’s why you can’t answer when the time is to stop a Nazi from killing people. The obvious answer is when they become emboldened enough to historically lead to action. These laws are not in place because we assume, but because of history of these people taking their ideology seriously.

That’s why you need to pretend this targets everyone who shows sympathy to nazis, instead of those that are posing with weapons and holding pageants. You honestly think their beauty pageant had 4 members and was unisex? Why were only the organizers arrested?

What's the line for that? Posting on Twitter that Jews are rats? Posting that they are better off dead? Are those words enough to throw someone in prison? My line is when a clear threat is made.

Let’s say brandishing weapons, leading an organization trying to recruit people, to kill others. How’s that? Want to pretend the OP is about a twitter post, instead of what actually happened? Why?

[kail]

They commit acts of violence for a political purpose. They're designated as a criminal organization. What do you call a criminal organization that commits acts of violence for political purposes? In this case, the political purpose of, at the minimum, ethnic cleansing. This is the horse you're backing.

And for the millionth time, the minute someone does commit an act of violence or posts evidence of such a plan then they deserve prosecution. The article made no mention of such for the Nazi agent, it only states that she posted a bunch of racist shit.

I'm not backing Nazi or the KKK or any other disgusting organization. I am backing rightful arrests.

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Snippidy snipped

Read above. I'm not about arresting individuals because we believe they will commit acts of violence. If they post direct threats, evidence of a plan, or harass individuals, then by all means arrest them on those actual crimes.

[Mayhem]

Read above. I'm not about arresting individuals because we believe they will commit acts of violence. If they post direct threats, evidence of a plan, or harass individuals, then by all means arrest them on those actual crimes.

"Would someone please think of the Nazis??!!!"

That's you.

[Ripster42]

And for the millionth time, the minute someone does commit an act of violence or posts evidence of such a plan then they deserve prosecution. The article made no mention of such for the Nazi agent, it only states that she posted a bunch of racist shit.

I'm not backing Nazi or the KKK or any other disgusting organization. I am backing rightful arrests.

In the US we have something called RICO. It basically means, if you join a criminal organization, you can be convicted of all crimes members of that organization commit in furtherance of that organization. So when the organizations goals are "ethnic cleansing and genocide" and the person they plotted to kill was one of the people they believed should be genocided, all members of that organization are liable (who have committed any illegal act in furtherance of the organization). All the people in this story would have had to do is be a part of the group and post a threat online or harass someone (what you dismiss as "a bunch of racist shit"), and they're liable for that murder plot if a prosecutor wants to get zealous. I know this story is about the UK, I'm just saying even the US isn't ignorant enough to think that your argument holds water.

[arandomuser]

Well i noticed you havent seen an islamist terrorist attack in a long time since saudi arabia has their guy in office loyal to them so they dont need to keep funding them, except that one in pensacola where the trained saudi terrorist went rogue,, still no travel ban on saudi arabia because there best buddies with the trump regime, now its russia funding white supremacist.
we need a
1. Travel ban on russia
2. Tracking program for all russian nationals that could be funding these groups
3.arrest anyone meeting with russian intelligence against

and there almost all white supremacist terrorism would be gone because it all goes back to russia, just like saudi arabia uses terrorism as a tool russia is now. Also if we win the WH again we need to stop the saudis from screwing us too with their terrorist

[sircaw]

Hopefully they will reform while they serve out their sentences, i somehow doubt it though with the way our prison services are in the uk.

Luckily they did not kill anyone and their young enough to have their stupid views changed.
However saying that, that must be something seriously wrong with you in your life if you think the Nazi's or Hitler is a good role model to follow.

[Elegiac]

Why are neonazi's always the fucking cringiest of people

I think it might also have something to do with why racists and bigots tend to age like milk. I present to you; the Roald Dahl Theory of Inner Beautiful and Aging Gracefully

[kail]

"Would someone please think of the Nazis??!!!"

That's you.

Then you severely misunderstand.

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In the US we have something called RICO. It basically means, if you join a criminal organization, you can be convicted of all crimes members of that organization commit in furtherance of that organization. So when the organizations goals are "ethnic cleansing and genocide" and the person they plotted to kill was one of the people they believed should be genocided, all members of that organization are liable (who have committed any illegal act in furtherance of the organization). All the people in this story would have had to do is be a part of the group and post a threat online or harass someone (what you dismiss as "a bunch of racist shit"), and they're liable for that murder plot if a prosecutor wants to get zealous. I know this story is about the UK, I'm just saying even the US isn't ignorant enough to think that your argument holds water.

If their posts are somehow related to a crime her group is committing, then again she should be tried and punished accordingly. Hell if there is proof they even have knowledge of any crimes group have or intend to commit, toss that book hard. All I got from the article was their racist posts, that is it. If there is more information from other sources that add some form of liability, then that would be a fair and justified arrest.

Again, I am just against arresting people for posting or speaking vile crap.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Then you severely misunderstand.

I might not agree with you, most of my family would be eradicated were there another Holocaust, but I see where you're coming from.

Once they take the leap and join groups/organizations based around their hateful ideology, I'd say they're up for grabs. Same if they express online that they're all about taking action against "Ze Jews" or whatever the hell they're feeling the most ire towards at that moment.

[Heran]

Then there isn't a single country in the world with "free speech" by that completely insane, arbitrary measure. Every country in the world has certain speech criminalized, usually things like making specific threats (terrorist threats, bomb threats etc.)

Free speech, with that absolute requirement, doesn't exist.

Which is patently ludicrous.

That's the point. No country actually has free speech, all countries have restrictions on what you can say. You can't claim to be able to speak freely when the caveat is "but if you say these things you will be punished".

[draynay]

That's the point. No country actually has free speech, all countries have restrictions on what you can say. You can't claim to be able to speak freely when the caveat is "but if you say these things you will be punished".

Forcing "free speech" to be an absolute maxim is the stupid part, and arguing the finer points of it accomplishes nothing. Semantic arguments are the worst.

[Mayhem]

Then you severely misunderstand.

No, I don't.

You however think of being in the right because you try to be tolerant towards the intolerant. It's not like its some fringe idea that is just by chance may be hurting people, it's Nazis, the ones that murdered gay, handicapped, Roma, Jews with the goal to eradicate everyone not related to the master race. We know what they are up to, we don't have to give them the benefit of the doubt. They want to harm and hurt people, even if they want to bring change about peacefully the goal is still to eradicate entire races.