Sylvanas Is Evil, Just Admit It

[rrayy]

Even Sylvanas' skin must crawl from fans like these, good thing you are unsubbing. I think Blizzard made a big mistake putting her in the spotlight, from this thread alone we have people channeling inner socio- or psychopaths and fantasies that make me shudder.

I don't even think it matter if she dies in Shadowlands or what other depaved thing she does. If she dies people will worship her as a martyr, if she murders halve the cosmos in her schemes they will celebrate her, it's simply too late.

Actually, I think you are more of a problem then they are because you take them way too seriously. It's just a game. Woo cares if people like Syllvanas?

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She lied to your face and abandoned you to die at the bottom of the ocean. Then denounced both the forsaken and the Horde. Then admitted all her crimes to your face before abandoning you one last time.

If she's still your queen after that, you got problems. That'd be literally like my death knight still fanatically worshipping Arthas. But worse. On every level.

So? It is just a game. I would think one who cares way too much about what others think of Sylvanas is the one with problems.

[Raisei]

Actually, I think you are more of a problem then they are because you take them way too seriously. It's just a game. Woo cares if people like Syllvanas?

I think it is the other way around. The near perfect anonymity of the internet and the context of a game gives many people the courage to say what they truely think about such matters, things they would never dare say in person where other people could identify them.
Definately not all of those posting in defense of mass murder and wholesale slaughter of innocents will mean it, but I would not just dismiss such claims because they are packed in talk about a game.
I find it quite weird how you consider me taking these people by their words as a problem, but have no problem with people defending genocide. You don't have to take them seriously of course, maybe they are just engaging in Forum RP, but I remain unconvinced.

[keldarepewpew]

To very literally and obviously at this point, save us from the "curses" of being alive and having hope.

Her ideal of a Horde deprived of both would have been literally worse than the Scourge.



She lied to your face and abandoned you to die at the bottom of the ocean. Then denounced both the forsaken and the Horde. Then admitted all her crimes to your face before abandoning you one last time.

If she's still your queen after that, you got problems. That'd be literally like my death knight still fanatically worshipping Arthas. But worse. On every level.

My deathknight never renounced arthas. Uniting everyone under the scourge is our best bet vs the void lords. For the lich king!!!

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I mean, there are also those who side with Sylvanas BECAUSE she is evil and aren't in denial about it. I have more respect for those people than the others who side with her.

Down with the living!!

[Raisei]

My deathknight never renounced arthas. Uniting everyone under the scourge is our best bet vs the void lords. For the lich king!!!

As a Death Knight I find such blind faith repulsive. I am not a tool for some mad princeling to live out his power fantasies. The Scourge isn't the answer against the Void Lords, we need the strength and creativity of the living just as much as the resilience and tenacity of the dead if we want to come out of that fight as the victors.
Arthas arrogantly assumed his will alone would have been sufficient to guide the world in this struggle, but his Scourge could not even overcome the combined force of the Ebon Blade, the Alliance and the Horde.

The Lich King be damned! For the Ebon Blade, for Azeroth!

[VinceVega]

Was she ever not evil? I have never seen her as anything but evil.

Nothing she did would suggest otherwise. She is not stupid so she works with others if needed as the forsaken would have been wiped out otherwise in vanilla.
But everything else was just to benefit the undead, get her revenge and kill humans. So basically like the scourge with a bit of a brain.

[bowlink]

Was she ever not evil? I have never seen her as anything but evil.

Nothing she did would suggest otherwise. She is not stupid so she works with others if needed as the forsaken would have been wiped out otherwise in vanilla.
But everything else was just to benefit the undead, get her revenge and kill humans. So basically like the scourge with a bit of a brain.

that exacly right, but their are some who got this delusion that she can do no wrong. its really creepy at this point, its like if Stans and Simps had a baby (as unlikely as that sounds). and out came Sylvanas worthshippers

[rrayy]

I think it is the other way around. The near perfect anonymity of the internet and the context of a game gives many people the courage to say what they truely think about such matters, things they would never dare say in person where other people could identify them.
Definately not all of those posting in defense of mass murder and wholesale slaughter of innocents will mean it, but I would not just dismiss such claims because they are packed in talk about a game.
I find it quite weird how you consider me taking these people by their words as a problem, but have no problem with people defending genocide. You don't have to take them seriously of course, maybe they are just engaging in Forum RP, but I remain unconvinced.

It's a game. It's FICTION. You are taking people's views on a piece of FICTON way too seriously. Yes, you are the one who has the problem.

[Kaver]

Was she ever not evil? I have never seen her as anything but evil.

Nothing she did would suggest otherwise. She is not stupid so she works with others if needed as the forsaken would have been wiped out otherwise in vanilla.
But everything else was just to benefit the undead, get her revenge and kill humans. So basically like the scourge with a bit of a brain.

People completely misunderstood the whole “morally grey” description. They thought it was about Sylvanas but Blizzard never said that Sylvanas was morally grey. They said that THE PLAYERS of the Horde were in a morally grey situation. Especially Druids. They had to choose between their basic beliefs and their Warchief. But Sylvanas was never morally grey and her actions were not morally grey. She is evil.

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It's a game. It's FICTION. You are taking people's views on a piece of FICTON way too seriously. Yes, you are the one who has the problem.

And why do you care so much if some random people on the internet take fiction to seriously? Why is that important?

[rrayy]

And why do you care so much if some random people on the internet take fiction to seriously? Why is that important?

I don't. I am just pointing out who really has the problems.

[huth]

It's a game. It's FICTION. You are taking people's views on a piece of FICTON way too seriously. Yes, you are the one who has the problem.

In this case, yes. But they do it when it isn't about fiction as well. You're poorly trying to justify a behaviour that is troubling in general because you can't think of any serious repercussions it has in this particular case.

[Raisei]

It's a game. It's FICTION. You are taking people's views on a piece of FICTON way too seriously. Yes, you are the one who has the problem.

I quite explicitly explained why it matter little if this is FICTION. You just WANT to assume that people here argue pro-genocide because it is just a game, I find that quite naive, when there are many many people of such a persuation out there in the world.
The anonymity of such a forum provides people with the courage to speak their mind freely, so in general I judge people by what they say even if they cloth it in the context of the game. If that is a problem for you, hummmm, tough luck I guess.

[the game]

She may be evil. But she's right.

[Kumorii]

I quite explicitly explained why it matter little if this is FICTION. You just WANT to assume that people here argue pro-genocide because it is just a game, I find that quite naive, when there are many many people of such a persuation out there in the world.
The anonymity of such a forum provides people with the courage to speak their mind freely, so in general I judge people by what they say even if they cloth it in the context of the game. If that is a problem for you, hummmm, tough luck I guess.

If being pro-genocide in a game could mean you are pro-genocide in real life then all gamers are potential murderers or violent aggressors. Almost all games have some form of violence in which the players condone. The biggest games are about killing the other guy before they kill you with the sole reason they are the enemy and that's about it. It's a very flimsy argument to make that in-game morals somehow reflects morals outside of it.

You clearly think it does, but that means you have to be weary about everyone. I would say even you are in the category to be worried about because I'm sure you've played games where you enjoyed killing others. The fact that you have issues with separating the two makes you more of a danger than someone who realise the difference between fiction and real life morals.

Morals in fiction are heavily influenced by the context of the world it's in. It's not applicable in our world because context would be different. An action in one game can be seen as good while the same action in another game can be considered bad all due to context and framework of said world.

[Kaver]

I don't. I am just pointing out who really has the problems.

Why is it important for you to point that out?

[ravenmoon]

I mean, she has damned countless people, including the civilians of Teldrassil (possibly children as well) as well as many Alliance and Horde soldiers (which include her own people aka the Forsaken), to a torturous afterlife. Death is one thing, it happens in war, but this.....this is beyond justifiable. There is no hidden plan, no greater good. She is evil, though I wish the writers hadn't written her this way. There was a time when her ruthlessness was used for the good of her people.

Few topics get the wow community buzzing as Sylvanas and High elves do. 24 pages in 9 days.

She is supposed to be nuanced. evil but only because of what was done to her, she is also supposed to actually have some redeemable qualities and is suppsedly misunderstood.

She is the curretn writing leads and directors fave character. HE will make her the greatest Thrall/MAlfurion watch and see.

[huth]

If being pro-genocide in a game could mean you are pro-genocide in real life then all gamers are potential murderers or violent aggressors. Almost all games have some form of violence in which the players condone.

Those aren't the same thing. These people aren't arguing that it is fine because it is a game, they're arguing that it is fine because genocide isn't that bad.

There's also a difference between being of the opinion that a course of action is acceptable, and being willing to take that course of action when you know it has no real repercussions. Nor is doing what the game forces you to do to progress the same as condoning that course of action.

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She is supposed to be nuanced. evil but only because of what was done to her, she is also supposed to actually have some redeemable qualities and is suppsedly misunderstood.

She most definitely isn't. She's doing this because she wants to, and spelled things out for the loyalists just to make it clear she was not at all misunderstood.

She became evil because of what was done to her. But she chose to remain so of her own will.

[Raisei]

If being pro-genocide in a game could mean you are pro-genocide in real life then all gamers are potential murderers or violent aggressors. Almost all games have some form of violence in which the players condone. The biggest games are about killing the other guy before they kill you with the sole reason they are the enemy and that's about it. It's a very flimsy argument to make that in-game morals somehow reflects morals outside of it.

At least modern games do however present you with a moral choice when the murder of innocents is concerned and rarely is that the foucs of a game.
Just to make this clear it is not the ingame-roleplaying of a bad guy that I take issue with. But when people defend things like genocide with what they consider as "logic" to make it sound like genocide is not an evil act from their outgame perspective, I am concerned.
It is not so much the reflection of ingame morality, but using ingame morality to convey outgame opinions.

You clearly think it does, but that means you have to be weary about everyone.

Let's say with all the shit humanity has done in the past and present, I am not the most optimistic person when the human character is concerned. Sadly I am usually correct.

I would say even you are in the category to be worried about because I'm sure you've played games where you enjoyed killing others.

Some, yes. Played GTA as a kid and ran over hundreds of pixel people on the sidewalks. But that does not mean I am defending drive-by shootings on a web forum or say people who drive over innocent pedestrians for fun are fine and clearly not evil. So yes, I know the difference.

The fact that you have issues with separating the two makes you more of a danger than someone who realise the difference between fiction and real life morals.

So many assumptions about my character. I find it fun how you immediatedly assume I cannot seperate reality and fiction, becaue I consider the defense of genocide wrong, but grant the people that do actually defend mass murder the license that obviously they seperate these two worlds, despite no indication for it whatsoever. Interesting bias.

It's just find it very naive to say people don't mean what they write, especially if they don't have to fear any repercussions and I am not sure what your point is. Should I now feel bad for countering pro-genocide people because they might just talk about fiction? Yeah I don't think so.

[Doomislav]

Well yeah clearly she is written to be. Any ambiguity about her character went out the window with the "morally grey" story.

Yea I was kinda disappointed the writers went in this direction. Complex characters are interesting, but they just went full on mustache twirling evil with her...

[huth]

Yea I was kinda disappointed the writers went in this direction. Complex characters are interesting, but they just went full on mustache twirling evil with her...

And yet you still get people insisting she is not evil. They could probably give her the mantle and the tophat too and they'd still insist she's just misunderstood and working for our best interests.

[ravenmoon]

She most definitely isn't. She's doing this because she wants to, and spelled things out for the loyalists just to make it clear she was not at all misunderstood.

She became evil because of what was done to her. But she chose to remain so of her own will.

Wanna bet Sylvanas would be shown as right after Shadowlands? Wanna bet the jailor breaking free and Sylvanas' reason for helping is not the universal all bad it is appearing to be.

Classic writing trick, lack of information and set up makes it appear as one thing, only for later revelations to finally put in context what you see and realise, "omg, Sylvanas was doing us a favour" -2she's amazing, and badass"