Managing the raid team going into a new expac

[SpikeySquad]

Hey all,

I have never been an officer in a guild over the end of one expac and start of another so wondering if anyone has some advice please. We are a relative social guild 9/12M 2 day that doesn't hard push for CE. We just lost a player and naturally foresee a lot more doing the same in the coming months. If we recruit then understandably people expect you to take them into Shadowlands with you or they aren't interested. Which is fine now but down the line we will probably lose some players that perhaps have been with us for say 18 months. If we replace them and we then we go into the next expac with someone we have only known a month instead?

How does your guild handle this? I did consider not recruiting and once 4 want to quit to just call it a day for this tier. Or base spots on how long they have been raiding with us but naturally that puts newer people off if nothing is guaranteed.

Anyhow, a bit lost!

Thanks for any help in advance.

[Sinndra]

My guild and raid team would often just take a break from progression raiding and recruiting at this point in an expansion. once we've finished the final boss, we stop stressing over the raid, and just use the last bit of time to relax, no more active recruiting, most likely those that want an extended break, will be back for the start of the new expansion.

there will be plenty of people returning, as well as new players to choose from if a couple decide to quit for good.

this is a good time to turn down the expectations of a raid team. stop the demanding schedules. start selling empty spots if you have a portion of your team that wants to continue to farm the place, but dont actively recruit. be patient and wait for the next expac or just before during the prepatch.

[kamuimac]

Hey all,

I have never been an officer in a guild over the end of one expac and start of another so wondering if anyone has some advice please. We are a relative social guild 9/12M 2 day that doesn't hard push for CE. We just lost a player and naturally foresee a lot more doing the same in the coming months. If we recruit then understandably people expect you to take them into Shadowlands with you or they aren't interested. Which is fine now but down the line we will probably lose some players that perhaps have been with us for say 18 months. If we replace them and we then we go into the next expac with someone we have only known a month instead?

How does your guild handle this? I did consider not recruiting and once 4 want to quit to just call it a day for this tier. Or base spots on how long they have been raiding with us but naturally that puts newer people off if nothing is guaranteed.

Anyhow, a bit lost!

Thanks for any help in advance.

get ready to loose 20-30% of your roster - it nearly always happens when new expansions come .

[Saltysquidoon]

No one can help you with this it's entirely guild dependant. Are you likely to lose more players by calling prog? If not maybe it's time to call it. There is inevitably going to be attrition before the pre-patch hype and resuscitation of the game (happens every expo).

If we recruit then understandably people expect you to take them into Shadowlands with you or they aren't interested. Which is fine now but down the line we will probably lose some players that perhaps have been with us for say 18 months. If we replace them and we then we go into the next expac with someone we have only known a month instead?

Can you clarify this?
Are you saying you want to recruit new raiders for just 8.3 and intend to replace them for returning old players that quit previously come SL? If so that's the biggest shitheel move I've ever heard of.
The raid team should be the best players you have with what you can make when mythic opens, not the GM's girlfriend.

[crakerjack]

It's just the way the cycle goes. People get burned out near the end of expansions since progression slows down and there won't be any more substantial progression until the next expansion. You could recruit people and warn them that mythic roster spots might be thin when players return for SL. They might understand or they might just leave. If you guarantee them mythic spots next expansion, you might be stepping on the toes of guildies who plan on returning for SL. There's never going to be a scenario where everyone is happy and people don't leave. You just have to figure out which scenario will be in the guilds best interest.

My guild cancelled all scheduled raids, but a few guildies will hold raids at the same times we'd raid at and fill the rest. If you know people will return for SL, that's likely the route I'd go. There's no sense in trying to maintain raid schedules if you're having to pug a decent chunk of your raid. Just cancel all raids and if people in your guild want to continue to raid, just have them continue raids at the same times and just roll with it.

[Inci]

Hey all,

I have never been an officer in a guild over the end of one expac and start of another so wondering if anyone has some advice please. We are a relative social guild 9/12M 2 day that doesn't hard push for CE. We just lost a player and naturally foresee a lot more doing the same in the coming months. If we recruit then understandably people expect you to take them into Shadowlands with you or they aren't interested. Which is fine now but down the line we will probably lose some players that perhaps have been with us for say 18 months. If we replace them and we then we go into the next expac with someone we have only known a month instead?

How does your guild handle this? I did consider not recruiting and once 4 want to quit to just call it a day for this tier. Or base spots on how long they have been raiding with us but naturally that puts newer people off if nothing is guaranteed.

Anyhow, a bit lost!

Thanks for any help in advance.

Speaking from experience and the guilds that I've managed from Wotlk up to BFA(top 300-600).

In my opinion, this is the hardest part of the job is to keep the guild together until a new content is out and only then it will be easier from there.
Think of a new content like a glue, as long as its fresh your job to keep the guild together will be super easy but once it fades out and it becomes stale people will start dropping like flies.

So what I used to do is relax the recruitment at the start of the tier and then heavily invest around the middle and fire it up later into the tier especially if that tier is the end of an expansion, because at that point you are just delaying the inevitable demise of your roster by recruiting more and more until you can glue them together(new content). if you are doing a great job there WILL be guilds who are struggling and their core roster will ask for merging with you.

Also this will sound weird but it is psychological.
Try to not have long breaks(more than 2 weeks) without any raids. people tend to go out play other games find new things and with that they will probably ditch wow, some of them may never come back.

always have 1 mandatory raid regardless of what your goals are.

I can imagine how hard it can be especially when BFA isn't doing so great atm, it seems to be impossible at times to keep a guild together but trust me SHOW your members that you are working to keep the guild together SHOW your work so that they will respect you and feel like you are doing your best to not let this guild fall apart. have announcements on your discord/forums always keep them up to date with the things you guys are working on, make them feel that the guild is still alive.

I hope I've contributed something, I wish you all the best and remember don't burn yourself out be careful to not let the game turns into a full-time job because you will hate it.

[Trend]

Hey all,

I have never been an officer in a guild over the end of one expac and start of another so wondering if anyone has some advice please. We are a relative social guild 9/12M 2 day that doesn't hard push for CE. We just lost a player and naturally foresee a lot more doing the same in the coming months. If we recruit then understandably people expect you to take them into Shadowlands with you or they aren't interested. Which is fine now but down the line we will probably lose some players that perhaps have been with us for say 18 months. If we replace them and we then we go into the next expac with someone we have only known a month instead?

How does your guild handle this? I did consider not recruiting and once 4 want to quit to just call it a day for this tier. Or base spots on how long they have been raiding with us but naturally that puts newer people off if nothing is guaranteed.

Anyhow, a bit lost!

Thanks for any help in advance.

The worst thing you can do (and what it seems most people fall into) is not to have an open dialogue about it and sort of keep people blowing in the wind guessing where things stand. If 18 people want to keep going and only a few are burned out, then it should be out in the open that it's fine to break, but other people will be brought in and there will be increase competition next tier. If, on the other hand, 10 people are really dragging and would like to take a break, maybe it makes more sense to set a date to wrap things up based on a general consensus. That would make it more likely people would be ok with a clean wrap-up.

Nobody here knows your raid team and what people are thinking. Have conversations and figure it out.

[SpikeySquad]

My guild and raid team would often just take a break from progression raiding and recruiting at this point in an expansion. once we've finished the final boss, we stop stressing over the raid, and just use the last bit of time to relax, no more active recruiting, most likely those that want an extended break, will be back for the start of the new expansion.

there will be plenty of people returning, as well as new players to choose from if a couple decide to quit for good.

this is a good time to turn down the expectations of a raid team. stop the demanding schedules. start selling empty spots if you have a portion of your team that wants to continue to farm the place, but dont actively recruit. be patient and wait for the next expac or just before during the prepatch.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah what you said makes sense and I definitely foresee an early break.

- - - Updated - - -

get ready to loose 20-30% of your roster - it nearly always happens when new expansions come .

Thanks for the reply. Could well be if people want to go and kill N'zoth or find a better guild etc. At the start of BFA we started the tier with 50 people wanting to raid!!! This expansion led to so many people quitting too.

- - - Updated - - -

No one can help you with this it's entirely guild dependant. Are you likely to lose more players by calling prog? If not maybe it's time to call it. There is inevitably going to be attrition before the pre-patch hype and resuscitation of the game (happens every expo).



Can you clarify this?
Are you saying you want to recruit new raiders for just 8.3 and intend to replace them for returning old players that quit previously come SL? If so that's the biggest shitheel move I've ever heard of.
The raid team should be the best players you have with what you can make when mythic opens, not the GM's girlfriend.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, maybe I am approaching things wrong but I personally rate commitment to the guild pretty highly especially as this expac has had such a big turn over. We don't push for CE but yes ofc better players=easier progression. It's def something to think about so thank you.

- - - Updated - - -

It's just the way the cycle goes. People get burned out near the end of expansions since progression slows down and there won't be any more substantial progression until the next expansion. You could recruit people and warn them that mythic roster spots might be thin when players return for SL. They might understand or they might just leave. If you guarantee them mythic spots next expansion, you might be stepping on the toes of guildies who plan on returning for SL. There's never going to be a scenario where everyone is happy and people don't leave. You just have to figure out which scenario will be in the guilds best interest.

My guild cancelled all scheduled raids, but a few guildies will hold raids at the same times we'd raid at and fill the rest. If you know people will return for SL, that's likely the route I'd go. There's no sense in trying to maintain raid schedules if you're having to pug a decent chunk of your raid. Just cancel all raids and if people in your guild want to continue to raid, just have them continue raids at the same times and just roll with it.

Thank you for sharing. You expressed the situation very well. That's guild management in a nutshell though, can't please everyone all of the time!

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking from experience and the guilds that I've managed from Wotlk up to BFA(top 300-600).

In my opinion, this is the hardest part of the job is to keep the guild together until a new content is out and only then it will be easier from there.
Think of a new content like a glue, as long as its fresh your job to keep the guild together will be super easy but once it fades out and it becomes stale people will start dropping like flies.

So what I used to do is relax the recruitment at the start of the tier and then heavily invest around the middle and fire it up later into the tier especially if that tier is the end of an expansion, because at that point you are just delaying the inevitable demise of your roster by recruiting more and more until you can glue them together(new content). if you are doing a great job there WILL be guilds who are struggling and their core roster will ask for merging with you.

Also this will sound weird but it is psychological.
Try to not have long breaks(more than 2 weeks) without any raids. people tend to go out play other games find new things and with that they will probably ditch wow, some of them may never come back.

always have 1 mandatory raid regardless of what your goals are.

I can imagine how hard it can be especially when BFA isn't doing so great atm, it seems to be impossible at times to keep a guild together but trust me SHOW your members that you are working to keep the guild together SHOW your work so that they will respect you and feel like you are doing your best to not let this guild fall apart. have announcements on your discord/forums always keep them up to date with the things you guys are working on, make them feel that the guild is still alive.

I hope I've contributed something, I wish you all the best and remember don't burn yourself out be careful to not let the game turns into a full-time job because you will hate it.

Thank you muchly for the detailed response. You seem to have quite a different approach to several here to actually keep on pushing through. However, you are raiding at a very very different level to us. Either way it definitely makes sense to keep people informed and show them we are working on stuff. Good luck with glue-ing your team together!

[SpikeySquad]

The worst thing you can do (and what it seems most people fall into) is not to have an open dialogue about it and sort of keep people blowing in the wind guessing where things stand. If 18 people want to keep going and only a few are burned out, then it should be out in the open that it's fine to break, but other people will be brought in and there will be increase competition next tier. If, on the other hand, 10 people are really dragging and would like to take a break, maybe it makes more sense to set a date to wrap things up based on a general consensus. That would make it more likely people would be ok with a clean wrap-up.

Nobody here knows your raid team and what people are thinking. Have conversations and figure it out.

Absolutely makes sense thank you. We have already been talking about how to approach the rest of the tier whether we keep extending to push deeper in or reset for people farming Ra-den. But then one left and just heard another is thinking about it I wasn't quite sure to approach the recruitment thing and you are right maybe the more important question is whether people want to pause now and warn anyone who leaves they may not get a spot back. Thank you!

[Gaidax]

We're 2 nights 12/12 and this goes for years now, we always clear full mythic raid in timely order for 2 night guild.

We never stop raiding, except specific for big holidays, raiding until the very last week of expansion. It just naturally drops to 1 raid per week at that point because you just oneshot everything, we're pretty much there now already. As additional activity - we sell mounts and such from raid or previous raid, so if there's a buyer we do another day, otherwise just 1 raid a week.

We still recruit, but our roster tends to be stable. People will always leave and that's ok. It's a bit easier to find decent people if you are 12/12, so I'd focus on that - at this point you really can faceroll last remaining bosses. Sure there will still be some learning for Carapace and N'zoth, but they are a shadow of what they were back in the day. N'zoth in particular is half the fight really with last phase almost being non-existent now.

I totally think that taking a break from raiding is where you can do most damage to the guild, so make sure you have that 1 farm raid per week, even if it's really just to socialize mostly or gear alts. Speaking of which - did your guys decide on what they go for Shlands? Great time to start gearing alts to make leveling easier and let people feel their choice in real raid now already.

[SpikeySquad]

We're 2 nights 12/12 and this goes for years now, we always clear full mythic raid in timely order for 2 night guild.

We never stop raiding, except specific for big holidays, raiding until the very last week of expansion. It just naturally drops to 1 raid per week at that point because you just oneshot everything, we're pretty much there now already. As additional activity - we sell mounts and such from raid or previous raid, so if there's a buyer we do another day, otherwise just 1 raid a week.

We still recruit, but our roster tends to be stable. People will always leave and that's ok. It's a bit easier to find decent people if you are 12/12, so I'd focus on that - at this point you really can faceroll last remaining bosses. Sure there will still be some learning for Carapace and N'zoth, but they are a shadow of what they were back in the day. N'zoth in particular is half the fight really with last phase almost being non-existent now.

I totally think that taking a break from raiding is where you can do most damage to the guild, so make sure you have that 1 farm raid per week, even if it's really just to socialize mostly or gear alts. Speaking of which - did your guys decide on what they go for Shlands? Great time to start gearing alts to make leveling easier and let people feel their choice in real raid now already.

I appreciate the reply Gaidex. It has a lot of good points so thank you.

- - - Updated - - -

Add events to keep people busy. Old raid meta-achievements, Jaina mount farms heck even try pvp if you have to, just have something in the schedule other than just the current raid that people have been doing for months now.

Good idea, thank you. Even if I do hate them not everyone else does!

[Cathbadh]

We're less progressed than you and have always had recruiting issues due to a bit odd raid hours. Generally though this is the best part of the expansion for us for recruiting. Guilds are going on break or dying as they lose people. We'll grab a few, lose a few, and end up at 20+ raiders next expansion. Of those we'll lose 3-4 when they realize the new expansion isn't any better than the last one, and then start the recruiting process all over again.

We don't take extended breaks during the content drought though. That's a recipe for a dead guild IMO.

[protpaul]

Depends how much everyone's goals align. The lower you go mythic guild wise the more diverse the reasons for why people raid become. I am not actually sure what hold social guilds together beyond... well social bonds.

I know my guild reverts to selling runs so members don't need to far materials to raid for the following tier. Perhaps you could emulate that with heroic?

Sure it won't pay for everything but you could split the profits to the guild or cover repairs for a while.

[Zantera]

You gotta focus on the now and not the future. People do leave and you gotta replace them. I don't think anyone who decides to quit raiding has any reason to be upset if they return for the next expansion 6 months later and expect a spot on the raid team. Then that's on them. Usually end of the expansion is a great time to tell the character of the people on your raid team. People who keep showing up to raids and keep doing their best are reliable and people you can depend on, whereas people who get 'bored' and quit to wait for new content are most likely gonna do the same again.

It can be hard in situations where you are really close to the people quitting but you still gotta keep the guild alive. If they return at some point and you have room on the roster then sure, but you always gotta have a few more than you can use. A ~25 man roster is usually a decent number though depending on how much you rotate the team (and how cool people are with it) and how much attendance people have in general, you could get by with a 22 man roster or a 28 man roster.

[Cosmic Janitor]

There is no one solution that works every time. Either you take a collective break from organized raiding and start recruiting 2-3 month before the expac launches to not over-recruit or you just hard-ass it and replace everyone that can't be bothered anymore and prioritize new people that stuck it out until the end. There is really no solution here where everyone will be happy. Some people would have at least liked to finished the tier (and/or grind out the mounts) others will be pissed if they come back and their spot is taken, and again others would be pissed if you drop the newcomers that you recruit now.

All you can do is just minimize the people you piss off, run the raid for as long as it makes sense without burning people out, recruit as many people as you think will reasonably fit later (unless you have the option to recruit people who only wanna finish this tier, happens sometimes) and hope you estimate the returners correctly.

Personally I always tended to either prioritize the people that stuck around or the ones that proven themselves once the raiding starts again in the new expac. Usually some people will lose interest early in the expac as well, not to mention the various RL related dropouts. It usually worked out somehow, but I know that comes down to luck.

[Fayenoor]

If you want the guild to survive--

1) Never stop raiding
2) Never stop recruiting.

Your progression is irrelevant. Your scenario happens in hardcore CE guild farming 12/12M every week, to AoTC focus guilds or even more casual ones. People leave/burn out, take breaks from the game all the time. That does not mean the team should die. Recruit, continue raiding move on. Let raiders know that no matter, you are going to move forward.

If you take break till Shadowlands, your guild is going to die. Since some of your team would love to continue to push for CE. And they will leave to join other guilds still raiding actively. So by the time the guild returns to raiding for Shadowlands, you wont have much of a Mythic team left.

Regarding your new people/old people dilemma.

This is a common scenario. Old raider (been raiding for months with you) takes a break from the game. You recruit a new guy to fill spot. Now the old guy returns for new expac and wants their spot back. So your dilemma - how do you pick between this guy you have known for 1 month over this old raider you have known for 18 months? Remind yourself of this -- loyalty goes both ways. The guy who was raiding with you for 18 months chose to quit (for his own reasons). The new guy helped you push forward when the old guy bailed on you. So you cant just have the old guy get his spot back as soon as he chooses to return. That's not fair to your raid team at all.

Let him reapply and fight for his spot or look for other options.

[Tyris Flare]

The worst thing you can do (and what it seems most people fall into) is not to have an open dialogue about it and sort of keep people blowing in the wind guessing where things stand. If 18 people want to keep going and only a few are burned out, then it should be out in the open that it's fine to break, but other people will be brought in and there will be increase competition next tier. If, on the other hand, 10 people are really dragging and would like to take a break, maybe it makes more sense to set a date to wrap things up based on a general consensus. That would make it more likely people would be ok with a clean wrap-up.

Nobody here knows your raid team and what people are thinking. Have conversations and figure it out.

I realize this is a few days old but this is a good post!

The #1 source of conflict in an MMO guild is folks not being on the same page about goals, expectations, etc

[arkanon]

Hey all,

I have never been an officer in a guild over the end of one expac and start of another so wondering if anyone has some advice please. We are a relative social guild 9/12M 2 day that doesn't hard push for CE. We just lost a player and naturally foresee a lot more doing the same in the coming months. If we recruit then understandably people expect you to take them into Shadowlands with you or they aren't interested. Which is fine now but down the line we will probably lose some players that perhaps have been with us for say 18 months. If we replace them and we then we go into the next expac with someone we have only known a month instead?

How does your guild handle this? I did consider not recruiting and once 4 want to quit to just call it a day for this tier. Or base spots on how long they have been raiding with us but naturally that puts newer people off if nothing is guaranteed.

Anyhow, a bit lost!

Thanks for any help in advance.

Wait until the start of SL. I have tried recruiting at the end, and recruiting at the start, and the start has yielded FAR better results. I find late expac has a largely casual player-base, and although they will have decent gear due to catchup etc, and they are "commited" while bosses are dropping and loots like candy, that often changes when true progression starts.

Additionally, a lot can and will change over the next 6 months, so its best to wait imo.

[SpikeySquad]

Really appreciate all the replies. We are normally open with our members but generally I like things clear in my own head first before introducing a lot of chaos to them and this thread really helped making matters clearer. We have had a talk with the guildies and atm a high majority want to push on and they know not to expect a spot if they quit now. It was something I did struggle with after raiding with people for so many months but yes as was said above loyalty goes both ways. We have 25, just killed Il'gynoth and going to take it boss by boss for the last and keep checking in with people about what they want to do so the balance is right between finishing the raid and over-recruiting or running our raiders into the ground.

Thank you all for helping a new officer out

[Shakhar]

Can you clarify this?
Are you saying you want to recruit new raiders for just 8.3 and intend to replace them for returning old players that quit previously come SL? If so that's the biggest shitheel move I've ever heard of.
The raid team should be the best players you have with what you can make when mythic opens, not the GM's girlfriend.

Still if someone wants to take a break without telling anything and just gonna appear when SL will be launched i would feel no attachement to that person, easily replaceable by even a bit less skillful player but someone i can rely on.