Pulsecheck: Talanji

[Saltysquidoon]

Rastakhan is a loser. Talanji a winner. That alone is reason enough for me to like Talanji much more.

Strange someone with such a love of the horde would dislike a loser.

[Powerogue]

Lol, yeah she is. She has no negative characteristics, never misses a mark besides the death of Rastakhan and the majority of Zandalar questing is "look how good and noble Talanji is! like our new OC!"

Please let the class know any flaws she has or exhibits within the course of BFA.

Pride, ignorance, overconfidence, and an emphasis on independence over loyalty.

Of course that was at least somewhat a good thing with her standing up to Sylvanas, but we see that maintained into the new novel with her being uneasy about her new allies. I'm not saying any of these things make her terrible, just more "human" (troll?)

[cparle87]

Isn't it super weird that every link you post related to Zul and Panadria never have any footnotes linking to any source to back up the claims? For example, the cata paragraph immediately preceding had four footnotes despite being three sentences long.

It's almost like (and this is crazy) people have to make inferences (or even assumptions) based on the preceding and following lore about Zul's involvement in Pandaria because nothing states it outright...

All this stuff about Zul is irrelevant anyway. Sylvanas burned the tree, the horde wasn't morally grey, it was Garrosh 2.0 and the war ended in SoO 2.0. There is nothing your pointless pedantic 4-page fishing expedition about the exact circumstances about Talanji's arrest can do about that.
Further, it wouldn't matter if the alliance apprehended her bloodlessly 2m from orgs docks laying her communication with sylvanas at her feet or if they captured her and hour away from zul'dazar by random chance with no preknowledge of her intent and executed her whole crew, ressed them and executed them again. Talanji admitted she was going to negotiate with the horde.


It's canon Sylvanas ordered the attack on the wrathgate.


You mean the motivation that requires us the believe that Sylvanas is such a galaxy brain she can lie in her own internal monologue in order to fool reader's she doesn't know exist?

You're absolutely incapable of using Watsonian logic, aren't you?

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Snip

I don't have a source on it, both wowpedia's and wowhead's pages for the quest are blank. But it takes place during the Stay of Execution scenario where you rescue Baine. As the group are heading into the room where Baine is locked up they're sniping at one another. In response to an accusation by one of the Horde npcs Shaw responds with something along the lines of "Pretended to befriend and murdered any kings in their own castles lately?"

[LordVargK]

I don't have a source on it, both wowpedia's and wowhead's pages for the quest are blank. But it takes place during the Stay of Execution scenario where you rescue Baine. As the group are heading into the room where Baine is locked up they're sniping at one another. In response to an accusation by one of the Horde npcs Shaw responds with something along the lines of "Pretended to befriend and murdered any kings in their own castles lately?"

Ah, yes. I think I remember. But yeah, as I said: I can hardly see that as a serious transgression. It seems to me that this is a lead-up to the cinematic before the battle for orgrimmar, where thrall (or was it saurfang?) and Anduin each "apologize" for the misdeeds of their people. In that cutscene Anduin takes the blame for Arthas's doing (which seems equally wrong as Shaw's accusation). It seems the writers wanted to show one last time how Horde and Alliance members hurt each other in the past and thus wove these accusations into the questlines to give a peace treaty more meaning.

[cparle87]

Ah, yes. I think I remember. But yeah, as I said: I can hardly see that as a serious transgression. It seems to me that this is a lead-up to the cinematic before the battle for orgrimmar, where thrall (or was it saurfang?) and Anduin each "apologize" for the misdeeds of their people. In that cutscene Anduin takes the blame for Arthas's doing (which seems equally wrong as Shaw's accusation). It seems the writers wanted to show one last time how Horde and Alliance members hurt each other in the past and thus wove these accusations into the questlines to give a peace treaty more meaning.

I'm hoping it's something like that. We can expect peasants and townfolk to hear rumors and blame the Horde for everything. For one of the most informed guys, especially so close to a faction leader, to be so biased, is worrying.

[Stardrift]

Respect the damn writers and play the game cause it’s fun, Talanji isn’t a problem the negative attitude and toxicity that came from league players/csgo players in 2008-2015 took its time to reach to WoW but now that it’s here it’s like it can’t go away

I won't respect someone that won't respect me and the people who were in their positions before them

Ten. Fucking. Years. An entire decade of build up and mystery, only for 8.3 to happen and go the way it did. That's them spitting in our faces and shitting on our porches. That's a big fuck-you to the writers that made all that elaborate set up and teasing.

[Kwento]

I loved her from the start.
Talanji is what the Horde desperately needed. A leader who cares about her people more than herself.
Thrall ran away from his responsibilities and hid in Outland.
Baine, after being hinted at his people having to pay for his traitorous behavior, literally states “No life is worth living if it cannot be true to its nature”, basically making a unilateral decision for every tauren in Mulgore to sacrifice themselves for f*ing Jaina!
No need to talk about Gallywix.
Rokhan is yet to really be written but seems to just back up anyone who seems like a winner.
And Lor’themar is... Oh gods... A blood elf leader is the only character who seems ok in this group... What have we become..?

The only point of interest that could change my mind on her character is how she’s going to be convinced (if she will, but I think it’s inevitable) to forgive or not actively seek vengeance for her father’s murder.

[Soon-TM]

The only point of interest that could change my mind on her character is how she’s going to be convinced (if she will, but I think it’s inevitable) to forgive or not actively seek vengeance for her father’s murder.

The only thing that might make her something other than a female troll Anduin is if she doesn't let her father's death go easily. The thing is (given the current batch of writers) that if she doesn't, she will be c0NsUmeD BaI VeNgEanCE and then villain batted. If she does, she becomes yet another lawful good cardboard - and we have enough of those already.

[Kwento]

The only thing that might make her something other than a female troll Anduin is if she doesn't let her father's death go easily. The thing is (given the current batch of writers) that if she doesn't, she will be c0NsUmeD BaI VeNgEanCE and then villain batted. If she does, she becomes yet another lawful good cardboard - and we have enough of those already.

I agree, but it is still fine with me if she is stated to be waiting for the right opportunity.
Any excuse to not just go with “Oh no! I didn’t think about it this way! You are absolutely right, it is time we end the war, my dad deserved to be killed anyway”.
As you’ve said, being an aggressive leader makes you into a player practice target, so I’m willing to meet devs somewhere in the middle.

[mickybrighteyes]

Isn't it super weird that every link you post related to Zul and Panadria never have any footnotes linking to any source to back up the claims? For example, the cata paragraph immediately preceding had four footnotes despite being three sentences long.

It's almost like (and this is crazy) people have to make inferences (or even assumptions) based on the preceding and following lore about Zul's involvement in Pandaria because nothing states it outright...

You have a real hard on for trying to assert that zul wasn't part of the pandaria event.

All this stuff about Zul is irrelevant anyway. Sylvanas burned the tree,

not part of my point...

the horde wasn't morally grey, it was Garrosh 2.0

also not part of my point

and the war ended in SoO 2.0.

Not part of my point...

There is nothing your pointless pedantic 4-page fishing expedition about the exact circumstances about Talanji's arrest

My only point here is people like to insert their own points about something that has no presence or stated event. Or try and put it in context where none exists to establish.

Further, it wouldn't matter if the alliance apprehended her bloodlessly 2m from orgs docks laying her communication with sylvanas at her feet or if they captured her and hour away from zul'dazar by random chance with no preknowledge of her intent and executed her whole crew, ressed them and executed them again. Talanji admitted she was going to negotiate with the horde.

I disagree. My position is that such distinctions carry a heavy weight in how other events are viewed. A capture similar to how Saphronetta Flivvers is taken or how Thrall was attempted to be taken is going to be a vastly different scenario than say how Saurfang or Jaina was captured.

I have another issue where I'm getting tired of seeing what I feel is a faction bias and assuming morality/justification. Horde is repeateedly assumed to be wrong almost every chance on almost every subject and the alliance never is allowed to do anything less than good. Even at points where story is vague it is assumed that nothign wrong occurred despite any information to say anything. Talanji's case is a glaring plot hole that people just ignore or.... as you yourself assume..."wouldn't matter". Flip it for example and look at Before the Storm where "The horde" (i.e. Gallywix) had an entirely pointless ambush story bit to set up useless characters who only exist to die for a blood kidnapping.

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I never said Zul wasn't their leader, only that he's not there.

You're first post seemed that was your implication.
I mean:

The Zandalari push into Pandaria was actually led by Vilnak'dor, though - Zul, while mentioned, wasn't even present as he was apparently busy elsewhere.

For good or bad, which is my point.

My point on the subject of Talanji has been what you've been saying NOW. Which is there's nothing in canon to prove either way.

For someone who is rather hidebound about canon-only sources, you seem to focus a great deal on things we have no canon information about.

Because my point is that there is nothing canon about the event and I see a number of people posting about said event. Like a certain poster claiming it happened en route to Durotar

but yeah, I guess we're going to come full circle. Asking for citations and bitching about one another's complaints.

Implying that Talanji "belongs" to her, yes.

Flimsy argument at best.



When is this supposed to have occurred?

I'm not assuming a context as there's one already present. To who and what do you think she's referring to here?

You're referencing a conversation taking place after an unspecified duration voyage at see with rescuers who are confirmed as people speaking with the authority of those she was originally seeking out in the first place. You're also trying to assert that this conversation is proof of the prior contact from before, which i don't see as proving.

The Zandalari are exceedingly proud and mired in their traditions, no doubt about that. But between the Horde and the Alliance, they have more in common with the Horde and a history of conflict and hatred with the Alliance.

I disagree. Zandalar has indifference towards a young nation existing for only one of their ruler's lifetimes while the alliance has their own prejudice built only upon interactions with small groups and tributaries.

[Gurahk]

Rastakhan is a loser. Talanji a winner. That alone is reason enough for me to like Talanji much more.

Talanji's a loser that got written as a "winner" by the writers.
Rastakhan was a much more interesting character from the moment we met him.

[Malekius]

She needs a personality. She doesn't have one besides "wants to do good things" but that's not a personality, that's a goal. She has basically no character.

True, all her talk in all the quest texts are all so bland. I mute the game immediately every time she speaks. For some reason I enjoy the way the troll language is written, but I hate how it sounds.

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Talanji's a loser that got written as a "winner" by the writers.
Rastakhan was a much more interesting character from the moment we met him.

Admittedly, while I didn't like Rastakhan, at least he had flaws to overcome. Talanji is just bland.

[mickybrighteyes]

Talanji's a loser that got written as a "winner" by the writers.
Rastakhan was a much more interesting character from the moment we met him.

Eh, I'm not sure I'd go that far.

I do think Rastakhan might have been worse as an "ally" to the horde but that would be more trying to work out how a "God King" who's ruled an 'empire' for roughly ten times longer than the horde's existence would ever bother seeing the horde eye to eye.

Talanji did also get a rather interesting partnership with the horde, but i highly doubt they're going to bother remembering that Talanji wound up equal to Sylvanas/Warchief rather than equal to Baine/Thalyssra/Theron/etc. I would say they're more room for a decent story with Talanji than Rastakhan.

[Aucald]

You're first post seemed that was your implication.

It's easy to "lead" from the back ranks, or from afar. The point is that there is zero evidence Zul is actually on Pandaria - he sent Vilnak'dor and accompanying forces to Pandaria with their marching orders, but the campaign on the ground is being overseen by Vilnak'dor entirely.

My point on the subject of Talanji has been what you've been saying NOW. Which is there's nothing in canon to prove either way.

Which requires that we formulate lines of speculation based on the available evidence we do have, or we just drop the topic entirely.

Because my point is that there is nothing canon about the event and I see a number of people posting about said event. Like a certain poster claiming it happened en route to Durotar

Which doesn't change the fact that it's the most likely assumption, given the givens. Perhaps Shadows Rising will confirm it, or perhaps the ultimate truth is something else - you don't know, and I don't know.

Flimsy argument at best.

Totally in keeping with Sylvanas' personality and characterization.

You're referencing a conversation taking place after an unspecified duration voyage at see with rescuers who are confirmed as people speaking with the authority of those she was originally seeking out in the first place. You're also trying to assert that this conversation is proof of the prior contact from before, which i don't see as proving.

Well, you wouldn't, as you seem to believe something else entirely unsupported either way. You're also trying to imply that a callback to a previous occurrence is somehow impossible - which doesn't make sense on its face, either. I don't see any other possible context for her statements here.

I disagree. Zandalar has indifference towards a young nation existing for only one of their ruler's lifetimes while the alliance has their own prejudice built only upon interactions with small groups and tributaries.

Not according to Chronicle Vol. 1 and the recounting of the Troll Wars. The Zandalari have borne the Humans a grudge since the defeat of Warlord Jintha and their defeat of the combined Zandalari and Amani forces on the slopes of Alterac.

[Saltysquidoon]

not part of my point...

Orly?

I have another issue where I'm getting tired of seeing what I feel is a faction bias and assuming morality/justification. Horde is repeateedly assumed to be wrong almost every chance on almost every subject and the alliance never is allowed to do anything less than good. Even at points where story is vague it is assumed that nothign wrong occurred despite any information to say anything. Talanji's case is a glaring plot hole that people just ignore or.... as you yourself assume..."wouldn't matter". Flip it for example and look at Before the Storm where "The horde" (i.e. Gallywix) had an entirely pointless ambush story bit to set up useless characters who only exist to die for a blood kidnapping.

That statement seems to contradict your previous point, which is what I've been saying this whole time re; the fishing expedition.
The needless protracted 'debate' is literally you being booty blasted the horde were the bad guys in bfa (which for the record I agree was stupid) and desperately needing Talanji's apprehension to be this horrible injustice in some vain attempt to even the scales. But isn't it convenient how you've framed this, anything less then a blow by blow of the event written in stone with betauser's blood will be sufficient evidence to convince you of anything. Then if it' ever expanded on and it doesn't go your way you can just handwave it as 'faction bias' and stay mad.

That's my ultimate point, even if the event is read in the light most favourable to you i.e the arrest was entirely unjustified and the alliance did everything they could to be assholes, nothing they could have done could even begin to make the alliance morally grey compared to the horde in bfa.
But here's the deal why be mad at the alliance? Why not blame selfinsertuser and the hack brigade.

[Grazrug]

Talanji better not drink the Baine kool-aid and his disgusting friendship attempts with the alliance. Where Baine goes lore and faction pride dies.

[mickybrighteyes]

Orly?


That statement seems to contradict your previous point, which is what I've been saying this whole time re; the fishing expedition.
The needless protracted 'debate' is literally you being booty blasted the horde were the bad guys in bfa (which for the record I agree was stupid) and desperately needing Talanji's apprehension to be this horrible injustice in some vain attempt to even the scales. But isn't it convenient how you've framed this, anything less then a blow by blow of the event written in stone with betauser's blood will be sufficient evidence to convince you of anything. Then if it' ever expanded on and it doesn't go your way you can just handwave it as 'faction bias' and stay mad.

That's my ultimate point, even if the event is read in the light most favourable to you i.e the arrest was entirely unjustified and the alliance did everything they could to be assholes, nothing they could have done could even begin to make the alliance morally grey compared to the horde in bfa.
But here's the deal why be mad at the alliance? Why not blame selfinsertuser and the hack brigade.

My first and primary reason for even posting in this thread is that Talanji's capture is not referenced properly in any lore source and is entirely a point that is heavily implied with reader's bias concerning assumptions about the events that go on to be largely ignored. I do not need or feel that Talanji's capture must be some sort of injustice, I use that example because there is nothing to prove or disprove how the event should be viewed. People will still go on as though it was a certain way despite no evidence to back it up.

This is then something that touches on another subject I might be more irked by which is how teh alliance vs horde are shown in the story like how the horde will always get that added extra villain batting for literally anything but an alliance equivalent is ignored almost entirely... wipe out a town? horde action will never be forgotten and get retold time and time again as proof of how evil ALL horde is. Alliance grind a town into the dust leaving no stone left to mark the place? Not even a minor foot note in the story.

In Talanji's case, it's just bullshit seeing people come in and assert details as though material exists...

[Soon-TM]

My first and primary reason for even posting in this thread is that Talanji's capture is not referenced properly in any lore source and is entirely a point that is heavily implied with reader's bias concerning assumptions about the events that go on to be largely ignored. I do not need or feel that Talanji's capture must be some sort of injustice, I use that example because there is nothing to prove or disprove how the event should be viewed. People will still go on as though it was a certain way despite no evidence to back it up.

This is then something that touches on another subject I might be more irked by which is how teh alliance vs horde are shown in the story like how the horde will always get that added extra villain batting for literally anything but an alliance equivalent is ignored almost entirely... wipe out a town? horde action will never be forgotten and get retold time and time again as proof of how evil ALL horde is. Alliance grind a town into the dust leaving no stone left to mark the place? Not even a minor foot note in the story.

In Talanji's case, it's just bullshit seeing people come in and assert details as though material exists...

It happens all the time. Random alliance leader does some !@#$ty thing just because he/she's a hothead (even if justifiedly so), doesn't have the slightest clue as to what's actually going on, and then, an ex post facto justification rains down from high heaven just at the right moment. Stormheim is probably the best example.

[mickybrighteyes]

It's easy to "lead" from the back ranks, or from afar. The point is that there is zero evidence Zul is actually on Pandaria - he sent Vilnak'dor and accompanying forces to Pandaria with their marching orders, but the campaign on the ground is being overseen by Vilnak'dor entirely.

This is getting into knitpicking and goalpost moving.

First It was "actually it was [not Zul] in charge" to "well it's easy to "lead" from [...] afar". Lore says he was leading, lore has him issuing orders. Lore has him tied to the mogu brought back to Zandalari. We have shit like this among the list of things saying Zul was in pandaria and then a certain doomsayer cult figure we run across saying: "Years ago, when he returned with our fleet from exile. He described his vision of this day when de world would bleed, and he described you in great detail."

This is just a ridiculous point to get hung up on. Zul is repeatedly stated as being in charge and then the resulting betrayal in his name using Mogu AND Vilnak in BFA puts him on the top spot as far as I'm concerned.

Which requires that we formulate lines of speculation based on the available evidence we do have, or we just drop the topic entirely.

Yes, the point is there is very little if any provable information...

you don't know, and I don't know.

Just going to cut down to this point. Cause this is what I'm trying to drive home.

Totally in keeping with Sylvanas' personality and characterization.

I won't disagree there. However that doesn't establish the contact you're arguing. It could as easily simply mean Sylvanas already viewed her as a pawn to be used as part of her plans. They don't seem to have any dialogue at The King's Death of Allegience of Zandalar indicating prior contact (far as I'm aware the only times they directly talk to each other?)

Well, you wouldn't, as you seem to believe something else entirely unsupported either way. You're also trying to imply that a callback to a previous occurrence is somehow impossible - which doesn't make sense on its face, either. I don't see any other possible context for her statements here.

I believe only that we can't conclude anything about the event beyond something happened and Talanji wound up in the Stockades. Anything further has no basis to argue. If you want to argue anything concerning travel route, time frame with reference to events, or levels of contact any parties had... there is nothing to argue because there is nothing available to discuss.

I point out that certain events can play out wildly different from what you might expect because it is equally as valid to view since there is nothing to say it isn't the case.

Not according to Chronicle Vol. 1 and the recounting of the Troll Wars. The Zandalari have borne the Humans a grudge since the defeat of Warlord Jintha and their defeat of the combined Zandalari and Amani forces on the slopes of Alterac.

I'm not sure Zandalar has carried a grudge at all. Rastakhan speaking at Genn seems more looking down on lesser beings:

"King Rastakhan: You...an exile without a homeland...you dare invade dese sacred halls and demand dat I turn my kingdom over to you?
King Rastakhan: De Zandalari built an empire dat would endure for over ten-thousand years...while your barbaric ancestors scuffled in de dirt.
King Rastakhan: WE conquered this world. WE brought it glory. You...you are nothing. Merely de latest in a long line of savages seeking to undermine our greatness."

Still even with teh rewriting it still looks like Zandalar trying to bring in lost outsiders by working with the tributaries and less like Zandalar fighting directly.

[Aucald]

This is getting into knitpicking and goalpost moving.

First It was "actually it was [not Zul] in charge" to "well it's easy to "lead" from [...] afar". Lore says he was leading, lore has him issuing orders. Lore has him tied to the mogu brought back to Zandalari. We have shit like this among the list of things saying Zul was in pandaria and then a certain doomsayer cult figure we run across saying: "Years ago, when he returned with our fleet from exile. He described his vision of this day when de world would bleed, and he described you in great detail."

This is just a ridiculous point to get hung up on. Zul is repeatedly stated as being in charge and then the resulting betrayal in his name using Mogu AND Vilnak in BFA puts him on the top spot as far as I'm concerned.

It's neither - since I never said he wasn't their leader specifically, my sole claim was that he wasn't present - that's all I said, and I said there's no evidence showing him to be. I also said it's noteworthy that Zul didn't wake Lei Shen, was never shown to be present, and didn't participate in *any* of the Zandalari events on Pandaria (IoT or otherwise). So while he may have been there at some time previously, he was *not* there for the resurrection of Lei Shen or anything that followed. Or if he was, we never saw him nor heard mention of his presence.

The various "Word of Zul" scrolls don't quite sync up with events as they appeared to happen. Given the context, it's pretty easy to read them as polemic and propaganda to his followers.

I won't disagree there. However that doesn't establish the contact you're arguing. It could as easily simply mean Sylvanas already viewed her as a pawn to be used as part of her plans. They don't seem to have any dialogue at The King's Death of Allegience of Zandalar indicating prior contact (far as I'm aware the only times they directly talk to each other?)

It is highly doubtful that Talanji would show up at Sylvanas' door unannounced, especially considered that the last contact the Horde had with the Zandalari was decidedly negative (e.g. the fracas concerning a reinvigorated Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub).

I believe only that we can't conclude anything about the event beyond something happened and Talanji wound up in the Stockades. Anything further has no basis to argue. If you want to argue anything concerning travel route, time frame with reference to events, or levels of contact any parties had... there is nothing to argue because there is nothing available to discuss.

I point out that certain events can play out wildly different from what you might expect because it is equally as valid to view since there is nothing to say it isn't the case.

I am arguing what I feel is the most probable sequence of events. I've already said I could be wrong - but even still, until new information presents itself this seems the most likely.

I'm not sure Zandalar has carried a grudge at all. Rastakhan speaking at Genn seems more looking down on lesser beings:

"King Rastakhan: You...an exile without a homeland...you dare invade dese sacred halls and demand dat I turn my kingdom over to you?
King Rastakhan: De Zandalari built an empire dat would endure for over ten-thousand years...while your barbaric ancestors scuffled in de dirt.
King Rastakhan: WE conquered this world. WE brought it glory. You...you are nothing. Merely de latest in a long line of savages seeking to undermine our greatness."

Still even with teh rewriting it still looks like Zandalar trying to bring in lost outsiders by working with the tributaries and less like Zandalar fighting directly.

Rastakhan is looking down on what he feels is a lesser being, but that does nothing to discount any lingering animosity that the Zandalari might have for the Humans and the Alliance as a whole. Don't forget that traders in Zuldazar sell Preserved Night Elf Heads, and that's an animosity that goes back 10,000+ years. I doubt the Zandalari have just dropped their grudge from only a few hundred years ago.