Sylvanas Is Evil, Just Admit It

[Varodoc]

Possibly a "Villain's (Permanent) Dying Grace", which is not the same as a redemption.

Basically what happened to Kil'jaeden. Did he ever redeem himself for his crimes? No, he was way past redemption at that point, but at least in the end he realized he was wrong.

[Raisei]

Dude dont diminish sylvanas her acomplishments by saying those alliance pussies started the war. The horde went for it and we kicked their asses.

We should all celebrate this glorious acomplishment of burning thousands of innocents AND sending them to eternal suffering!!!

No wait, I forgot, most people are not psychopaths and do not celebrate outright genocide. Shame the Horde didn't get the memo.

- - - Updated - - -

Eh good and evil are just point of views and if sylvanas isn't objectively heck we even have common moral/ethical philosophies which would say she is good.

Its called egoism.

If that were true then our world would not have laws and a justice system. It is very clearly defined what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't. Right and Wrong are not just ambigious words. This same system though in weaker form is applied to Azeroth as the Trial of Garrosh clearly shows.

Nowhere but on the Internets will you find people that support the notion that outright genocide of unarmed civilians is a good act.

[Terongor]

We should all celebrate this glorious acomplishment of burning thousands of innocents AND sending them to eternal suffering!!!

No wait, I forgot, most people are not psychopaths and do not celebrate outright genocide. Shame the Horde didn't get the memo.

- - - Updated - - -



If that were true then our world would not have laws and a justice system. It is very clearly defined what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't. Right and Wrong are not just ambigious words. This same system though in weaker form is applied to Azeroth as the Trial of Garrosh clearly shows.

Nowhere but on the Internets will you find people that support the notion that outright genocide of unarmed civilians is a good act.

Laws aren't build around morals its like lesson one.... for example walking towards red lights is clearly against the law but is it morally wrong? secondly are chinese, russian or north korean laws morally right? and we have alots of differant moral values around the world depending on your culture as in many countries suicide is illegal but its not punishable crime but in japan its legal. As if you don't consider law always and in everycase morally right in every country you argument falls there apart about the law,

my POV is there are too many moral and ethical views in the world and there are even people who actually support genocide meaning there are no objective moral/ethical values making them subjective and words without values and are used to justify actions.

[Yarathir]

Dude dont diminish sylvanas her acomplishments by saying those alliance pussies started the war. The horde went for it and we kicked their asses.

You mean the Horde did the usual thing of destroying a bunch of shit and killing a bunch of people then Blizzard said "Now, now. Time to kiss and make up," and made Blanduin and Jaina plead for peace again.

- - - Updated - - -

Eh good and evil are just point of views and if sylvanas isn't objectively heck we even have common moral/ethical philosophies which would say she is good.

Its called egoism.

Moral relativism in the face of a genocide isn't a good look.

[Terongor]

You mean the Horde did the usual thing of destroying a bunch of shit and killing a bunch of people then Blizzard said "Now, now. Time to kiss and make up," and made Blanduin and Jaina plead for peace again.

- - - Updated - - -


Moral relativism in the face of a genocide isn't a good look.

Do I care it doesn't look good? No. Moral relativism is only thing which can be in any way close to realism on morals or ethics. What something looks like really doesn't matter if its the the only viable choice when looking all the things which can be considered facts.

[Yarathir]

Do I care it doesn't look good? No. Moral relativism is only thing which can be in any way close to realism on morals or ethics. What something looks like really doesn't matter if its the the only viable choice when looking all the things which can be considered facts.

I really wonder why Sylvanas defenders are always so edgy. Why can't they just be like "Yes, Sylvanas can be considered evil by any reasonable person, but I like her because you can like evil characters."

[Raisei]

Laws aren't build around morals its like lesson one.... for example walking towards red lights is clearly against the law but is it morally wrong?

Yes, it is. You are free to risk your life if you wish of course, but by walking into traffic you also risk the lifes of many others. People might try desperately to break to not run your foolish arse over, cause people behind them to crash, get hurt and die.

my POV is there are too many moral and ethical views in the world and there are even people who actually support genocide meaning there are no objective moral/ethical values making them subjective and words without values and are used to justify actions.

With that kind of view you can excuse absolutely everything and that is bullshit. Basically it makes us wrong because we hold a serial killer that collects women's noses locked up. Does he think he is evil? Nah, he just wanted to make a nose necklace! Does this make his crimes any less horrible and evil? Hell no. Should we let him out so he can collect more? Probably not.

You can think you are a good person, but when everyone else agrees you aren't then it does not make you miracolously good, it just makes you wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Moral relativism in the face of a genocide isn't a good look.

Indeed, but I doubt he will understand this.

[Terongor]

I really wonder why Sylvanas defenders are always so edgy. Why can't they just be like "Yes, Sylvanas can be considered evil by any reasonable person, but I like her because you can like evil characters."

I really don't even like sylvanas she is just dull and how is the edgy considering trying make morals as objective as they can be.

[Raisei]

I really wonder why Sylvanas defenders are always so edgy. Why can't they just be like "Yes, Sylvanas can be considered evil by any reasonable person, but I like her because you can like evil characters."

I have been wondering about that myself. It would be fine if they like her for being a bad guy. I throughly enjoy Palpatine in SW for example, but that does not make me suddenly declare that all his brutal murders, tortures and genocides have been good acts. He IS the villan of the story and it is fine to like him for that.
The same goes for Sylvanas. She is the villain and it is fine to like her for that, but when you start to tell everyone how genocide is actually not evil because morals are relative, then you have throughly twisted your own morals already.

[Terongor]

Yes, it is. You are free to risk your life if you wish of course, but by walking into traffic you also risk the lifes of many others. People might try desperately to break to not run your foolish arse over, cause people behind them to crash, get hurt and die.



With that kind of view you can excuse absolutely everything and that is bullshit. Basically it makes us wrong because we hold a serial killer that collects women's noses locked up. Does he think he is evil? Nah, he just wanted to make a nose necklace! Does this make his crimes any less horrible and evil? Hell no. Should we let him out so he can collect more? Probably not.

You can think you are a good person, but when everyone else agrees you aren't then it does not make you miracolously good, it just makes you wrong.

- - - Updated - - -



Indeed, but I doubt he will understand this.

So you would call person who would cross empty round with red lights on evil. Thats pretty interesting... You must consider alot of children evil and you consider peoople escaping north korea evil as they brake the law too then.

Law and morals are differant thing I appreciate law for keeping order and making society work but law on itself has nothiing to do with morals. Keeping person who brakes the law locked up is okay but again it has nothing to do with morals and his actions horrid? most likely yeah but not objectively evil.

What does being a good person even mean? being a good person is subjective as only way to have objective good person is have atleast every religions moral values and cultural moral values to agree that person is a good person but we can't even find an indivual who fits those criterias. So can you prove EVERYONE(everyone means every single individual) considers someone a bad person?

- - - Updated - - -

I have been wondering about that myself. It would be fine if they like her for being a bad guy. I throughly enjoy Palpatine in SW for example, but that does not make me suddenly declare that all his brutal murders, tortures and genocides have been good acts. He IS the villan of the story and it is fine to like him for that.
The same goes for Sylvanas. She is the villain and it is fine to like her for that, but when you start to tell everyone how genocide is actually not evil because morals are relative, then you have throughly twisted your own morals already.

I never said sylvanas is good my only oppinion is that good or evil really aren't a thing just imaginary values which we have over 8 billion differant. Also you can consider anyone you want evil but the moment you start claiming someone is objectively evil you are just delusional and calling people twisted for aiming to have realistic POV on morals is just rude.

[Raisei]

So you would call person who would cross empty round with red lights on evil. Thats pretty interesting... You must consider alot of children evil and you consider peoople escaping north korea evil as they brake the law too then.

Way to move goal post, hmm? You never said empty road. The point of course was made for a situation in which you endanger others with your stupidity.

Oh and no, I do not think North Korea should be our paragon for anything, neither it's "laws" nor should we care about their stance on genocide. Which is exactly my point. Just because North Korea thinks it is okay to do the things they do, does not make them good, it just makes them wrong.

Law and morals are differant thing I appreciate law for keeping order and making society work but law on itself has nothiing to do with morals. Keeping person who brakes the law locked up is okay but again it has nothing to do with morals and his actions horrid? most likely yeah but not objectively evil.

Phew hope the victims of the serial killer did not spend their last moments thinking he was evil. Now that would really be unfair! I could offer other historical examples that proof you wrong, but it's gonna be a waste of my time and risk infractions. Not worth it. Whatever twisted kind of phylosophy you cooked up that somehow makes genocide fine I am not interested.

What does being a good person even mean? being a good person is subjective as only way to have objective good person is have atleast every religions moral values and cultural moral values to agree that person is a good person but we can't even find an indivual who fits those criterias. So can you prove EVERYONE(everyone means every single individual) considers someone a bad person?

There is a consensus on what a good person does and doesn't do. This consensus does not require everyone to agree, just the majority, there will always be people that disagree with everything for various reasons, that does not mean that we can excuse everything. People don't get to make their own rules, that is what we would call anarchy and chaos.
This majority has deemed genocide an evil act and a crime, heavily punished. You can shift and turn as much as you like, THIS is the reality we are living in.

- - - Updated - - -

I never said sylvanas is good my only oppinion is that good or evil really aren't a thing just imaginary values which we have over 8 billion differant. Also you can consider anyone you want evil but the moment you start claiming someone is objectively evil you are just delusional and calling people twisted for aiming to have realistic POV on morals is just rude.

True, you are just complaining that people call a genocidal murderer evil. We should all be ashamed.

[huth]

We should all celebrate this glorious acomplishment of burning thousands of innocents AND sending them to eternal suffering!!!

No wait, I forgot, most people are not psychopaths and do not celebrate outright genocide. Shame the Horde didn't get the memo.

- - - Updated - - -



If that were true then our world would not have laws and a justice system. It is very clearly defined what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't. Right and Wrong are not just ambigious words. This same system though in weaker form is applied to Azeroth as the Trial of Garrosh clearly shows.

Nowhere but on the Internets will you find people that support the notion that outright genocide of unarmed civilians is a good act.

Right and wrong are not good and evil. Things can be objectively right or wrong, but there is no objective morality.

[Terongor]

Way to move goal post, hmm? You never said empty road. The point of course was made for a situation in which you endanger others with your stupidity.

Oh and no, I do not think North Korea should be our paragon for anything, neither it's "laws" nor should we care about their stance on genocide. Which is exactly my point. Just because North Korea thinks it is okay to do the things they do, does not make them good, it just makes them wrong.



Phew hope the victims of the serial killer did not spend their last moments thinking he was evil. Now that would really be unfair! I could offer other historical examples that proof you wrong, but it's gonna be a waste of my time and risk infractions. Not worth it. Whatever twisted kind of phylosophy you cooked up that somehow makes genocide fine I am not interested.



There is a consensus on what a good person does and doesn't do. This consensus does not require everyone to agree, just the majority, there will always be people that disagree with everything for various reasons, that does not mean that we can excuse everything. People don't get to make their own rules, that is what we would call anarchy and chaos.
This majority has deemed genocide an evil act and a crime, heavily punished. You can shift and turn as much as you like, THIS is the reality we are living in.

- - - Updated - - -



True, you are just complaining that people call a genocidal murderer evil. We should all be ashamed.

I never said anything specific about crossing road with red lights on either you just made an argument one way but as again you sayid that laws are made from morals and on this case who is that against morals?

So you are saying that all people who disagree with are always wrong on morals? and again it serves my point of morals being subjective as you are stating again and again all who disagree with your morals are wrong.

They can think they are evil as its their own subjective point of view again I'm not saying having subjective PoV is bad in any way I'm just saying this threads main point is making an objective argument that sylvanas is evil but that isn't objective at all and extreme moral relativism is pretty common in philospohers these days and its started from nietzsche.

If most people think think something is true which is scientifically proven to otherwise it doesn't change it to be true itself and philosphy is counted among science and there morals are still being debated. You can't even find consessus of people agreeing on most conditions as main religions cause even there that "a good person needs to believe in our religion"

Evil is a point of view you are calling her objectively evil while we even have a huge moral philosphy saying she is good and me saying morals are so subjective they don't have any value as we can't even prove morals exists. Its the same question if we destroyed every copy of harry potter book, dvd and every physically material which had it contained in any way would it still exist as both are just ideas and do ideas exist.

[Yarathir]

I have been wondering about that myself. It would be fine if they like her for being a bad guy. I throughly enjoy Palpatine in SW for example, but that does not make me suddenly declare that all his brutal murders, tortures and genocides have been good acts. He IS the villan of the story and it is fine to like him for that.
The same goes for Sylvanas. She is the villain and it is fine to like her for that, but when you start to tell everyone how genocide is actually not evil because morals are relative, then you have throughly twisted your own morals already.

Exactly. Nobody is going to call you evil for liking an evil character that you admit is evil. When you start justifying their evil acts, well...

[Soon-TM]

If you still haven't realized that Sylvanas started the war because she wanted to start a war then you are extremly resilient to facts and nothing we can say will make you see the truth.

But apart from that, you say parading Genn in front of Sylvanas is an afront. Like... wow, just wow. Let's just forget that the Banshee blighted his homeland, killed thousands of his people and murdered his son, Genn should really get over it, but it is truely an afront to make Sylvanas look at him.

Only in the Horde apologists will you find people that blame victims of genocide for striking back against the murderers of their families.

I never said that Genn wasn't justified. However, that doesn't change the fact that Anduin's actions could have easily been read as a provocation, even if Sylvanas hadn't been the omegalul EvuL Mary Sue she is. Besides, she did want to start the war... but Anduin and Genn gave her the very pretext she needed (that's how she managed to convince Saurfang, after all), so there you go with your strawman.

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly. Nobody is going to call you evil for liking an evil character that you admit is evil. When you start justifying their evil acts, well...

Explaining =! Justifying

[Dejavuproned]

I never said that Genn wasn't justified. However, that doesn't change the fact that Anduin's actions could have easily been read as a provocation, even if Sylvanas hadn't been the omegalul EvuL Mary Sue she is. Besides, she did want to start the war... but Anduin and Genn gave her the very pretext she needed (that's how she managed to convince Saurfang, after all), so there you go with your strawman.

- - - Updated - - -



Explaining =! Justifying

Sylvanas was stretching as hard as some of the posters in this thread when she "justified" the Geno... I mean war.

She just happens to be good at manipulation and Saurfang, even though I like him, was thick enough to be manipulated into an attack that included sneaking into a night elf city and killing everyone in the dead of night. So honorable...

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

[Soon-TM]

She just happens to be good at manipulation and Saurfang, even though I like him, was thick enough to be manipulated into an attack that included sneaking into a night elf city and killing everyone in the dead of night. So honorable...

Well, we spent 2/3 of BfA hearing in all tones and volumes about Saurfang's MUH HONORZ, including three very pretty cinematics. Even the leader of the opposing faction endorsed him - and as we all know, he's always right and indeed the paragon of everything that's good and holy in Azeroth. Don't dare doubt about MUH HONORZ ever again

[Yarathir]

Explaining =! Justifying

I'm aware of what I said.

[music49]

Yea, but it's just a game so it's okay to be evil.

[Minikin]

2 people already dunked on your very wrong comment, but why not 3? Calia went there in disguise to see the people and event. She didn't start shit. Sylvanas went mental on the Forsaken there, though.

Not to mention she was already in league with the jailor at that point and heading towards war anyway. But don't let that tid bid of info stop @Mardux while he/she questions our critical thinking.

Yeah... did they retcon before the storm already? If you had read that (and had a bit of critical thinking skills) you'd have known it was calia that restarted the war with Anduin's help

- - - Updated - - -

Yea, but it's just a game so it's okay to be evil.

This basically. But nope. People want to do every kind of kung Fu gymnastics to explain otherwise.