Tearing down historical statues the European edition

[Doctor Amadeus]

I’m against false idols of worship. Soo... yeah.

[Machismo]

There never were any Hitler Statues in Germany, not even during the Nazi Period.

But, there were plenty of images. I guess they should have kept up all those, as well as the swastikas... right?

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I wonder what you are seeing there?

Well, he asked you, so what exactly did you mean by it? Considering we've seen the exact same rhetoric so many times before, it's easy to make obvious assumptions. Feel free to be as clear as possible.

[JohnBrown1917]

Well if europesns are fine with being cucked and having their history erased who are we to lecture them. Maybe such atrocities will hopefully awaken some patriotic groups from slumber, who knows

We are getting rid of all historical documents now? Statues are not history by themselves.

[Xarkan]

We are getting rid of all historical documents now? Statues are not history by themselves.

Statues are an edited reality anyhow, the only thing they really speak about is the artist and his reality

[tehealadin]

I think it is an interesting area, and more nuanced than people want it to be.

There can be many reasons why someone is celebrated and remembered. Many historical characters did great things, but also terrible things. I don't think the good deeds wash away the bad, nor the bad the good. I don't have a problem with people wanting to acknowledge the bad that people have done. How best to do this is something that needs honest debate, but that hasn't happened and isn't happening on a large scale.

On one hand you get people who vehemently defend symbols, unwilling to acknowledge why people might have a problem with them, holding them in sacred regard. They only acknowledge the good the person has done. On the other hand you get others who want to rip them down, only acknowledging the bad that they have done. I think on the more extremes there is an unwillingness to talk, because they don't believe there is anything to talk about. One side doesn't get why there is a problem with certain figures, the other can't get why others might want to keep a symbol, or acknowledge that some people find them important.

The binning of certain statues, in principle I don't have an issue with, I think it is fair to look back at the symbols present and ask if this is what we want in this day and age. However I don't like it when the mob gets to unilaterally decide on the issue (or any issue for that matter). I'd like to see government and institutions take peoples protestations more seriously, perhaps giving a vote. That they generally don't often makes people feel that they need to take unilateral action. That won't please everyone, some will demand they come down no matter what, screw what anyone else thinks, and others will decide they stay no matter what, screw what anyone else thinks. Opinions and judgements are only valid if they agree with me.

History is complex, our relationship with it and our symbols can be complex. I think there should be an effort to get consensus. I don't think ceding the decision to an angry mob (be they ripping them down, or trying to defend them), ceding ground to black and white thinking, is going to produce a good solution. If a majority decide that actually, statues and symbols need updating, then I wouldn't have an issue with them being replaced/moved, but I'd want it to be because of a consensus and not done through fear of the mob. The same with symbols remaining.

I fear this will come down to which extreme can scream the loudest. The ones on the right refuse to acknowledge anything bad about their history, empire was good etc. Often in ignorance of some of the atrocities committed in former colonies, sometimes in indifference to them. The past was glorious, and we should go back. On the left, they tend to only see the bad in their society and never the good, they will have no problem telling you why the UK, or somewhere else in Europe is the worst place in the world, and also have no problem telling you why Saudi Arabia is amazing, China is great, and the Soviet Union was just misunderstood. We shouldn't be seeking answers or progress from any of them.

[DKjaigen]

Dunno do they glorify a continuing system of oppression and erasure? If so, maybe they should be taken down.

Its fun seeing left-wingers judging historical people with a modern day lens. Already statues of Thomas Jefferson is being pulled down and i wonder how much you are losing in all of this.

[downnola]

Its fun seeing left-wingers judging historical people with a modern day lens. Already statues of Thomas Jefferson is being pulled down and i wonder how much you are losing in all of this.

So you're saying historical figures shouldn't be analyzed critically as time goes on? Removing a statue of a person doesn't mean they're erased from the history books. Their written work and place in the canon of history doesn't change if their bust is no longer on display in a park.

[Elegiac]

Its fun seeing left-wingers judging historical people with a modern day lens. Already statues of Thomas Jefferson is being pulled down and i wonder how much you are losing in all of this.

Not a wink because I think quite poorly of most of the founders.

[Xarkan]

Not a wink because I think quite poorly of most of the founders.

If the lesson becomes not having statues of powerful people in public places (where they can look down on the plebaians) because they are all vile then have at it

If this is to be something arbitrary that ignores how awful some are while remembering how awful others are then it is pointless, an action that is going to be repeated again and again in the future

That might be obvious if the statue was of Trump but noone ages well (Trump least of all but still)

[Felya]

Its fun seeing left-wingers judging historical people with a modern day lens. Already statues of Thomas Jefferson is being pulled down and i wonder how much you are losing in all of this.

You know what’s really strange in all this... I keep suggesting that these statues get replaced, with artistic depictions of accomplishments these men are responsible for. Not a single person saying that these statues represent history, have yet to respond stating what statues representing their accomplishments would look like.

I am assuming that their accomplishments are more important than the idolatry it self... figure that’s a safe assumption?

Edit: So... as some might know, Robert E Lee spent his post war career arguing against “radicals” and preaching unity. I tried to find a quote of his, that would represent that part of his life, as a possible monument. But... holly shit... I can’t even find anything to grab out of context. His unifying screed was how black people are too dumb to vote. So... ah... I can guess why some people are having troubles with representation of these accomplishments...

Edit 2: Oh and just to highlight the audacity... the dumb fuck lost his right to vote, because he lead an insurgents... which I guess objectively made him too dumb to vote, based on his actions... not color of his skin...

[beanman12345]

Well if europesns are fine with being cucked

I never tire of the unintentional irony that come from your posts.

[Felya]

Precisely. Taking down statues of former leaders is always a vae victis move. Seeing europeans falling victims to the invaders is a bit upsetting but at the end of the day whether to fight back or to succumb is up to them

What? Quick question... why is it when I search Wikipedia for Stalingrad and Tsaritsyn I get directed to Volgograd? What about Petrograd and Leningrad, directing to Saint Petersburg? Was Lenin or Stalin, some sort of invaders, that didn’t just take down statues... but, renamed cities?

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I never tire of the unintentional irony that come from your posts.

The fun part is that Russia has been white washing horrors of Stalin. As in, mass graves found in recent history, blamed on the west and US, instead of the obvious. They even ran mini series focusing on Stalin the noble, if harsh, father. If nothing else, Russia is proof, no mater the statues you take down or cities you rename... people will still “elect” a Putin.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Confederate statues were kept for a century and a half to remember that they too were people. Just like you and I.

If you tear down statues because "they are evil" according to your post-modern 21st century philosophy, don't cry when your statue and the statues of your heroes are torn down decades later because "you're evil" according to the people of the time.

[s_bushido]

Confederate statues were kept for a century and a half to remember that they too were people. Just like you and I.

lol

Imagine actually believing that.

[Edge-]

Confederate statues were kept for a century and a half to remember that they too were people. Just like you and I.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...itol%20grounds.

A casual look through shows that almost all of these statues and monuments were erected in the 20th century, well after the Civil War. It has nothing to do about their "humanity" or that they were "people", these were monuments "celebrating" those traitors, and were often used to intimidate communities of color.

You don't see monuments to Hitler to remind us that he was a "person" in Germany.

If you tear down statues because "they are evil" according to your post-modern 21st century philosophy, don't cry when your statue and the statues of your heroes are torn down decades later because "you're evil" according to the people of the time.

I got no problems with that. I'll be old, or dead, so it won't bother me. Move all that shit to museums, where it can consistently be presented in historical context.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

You don't see monuments to Hitler to remind us that he was a "person" in Germany.

That tends to happen when you are one of the most repressed nations in modern history.

[Ivanstone]

Edit: So... as some might know, Robert E Lee spent his post war career arguing against “radicals” and preaching unity. I tried to find a quote of his, that would represent that part of his life, as a possible monument. But... holly shit... I can’t even find anything to grab out of context. His unifying screed was how black people are too dumb to vote. So... ah... I can guess why some people are having troubles with representation of these accomplishments...

“setting an example of forced acquiescence so grudging and pernicious in its effects as to be hardly realized.”
Ulysses Grant on Robert E Lee, 1866

[s_bushido]

That tends to happen when you are one of the most repressed nations in modern history.

"They don't get to celebrate Hitler, so they're repressed."

The hot takes just keep on coming.

[Ivanstone]

If you tear down statues because "they are evil" according to your post-modern 21st century philosophy, don't cry when your statue and the statues of your heroes are torn down decades later because "you're evil" according to the people of the time.

They were evil by 19th century standards. There was a war. You might've heard about it.

[Elegiac]

Confederate statues were kept for a century and a half to remember that they too were people. Just like you and I.

If you tear down statues because "they are evil" according to your post-modern 21st century philosophy, don't cry when your statue and the statues of your heroes are torn down decades later because "you're evil" according to the people of the time.

Uh huh.