Enhancement changes 9.0 Discussion

[Razaron]

It’s amazing we still hadn’t received anything for how squishy we still are. True the tuning of our healing could go up, but we’re really lacking a defensive, not just for pvp but for pve too. Bringing back shamanistic rage could be good, but it’s a little too similar to astral shift. Natures guardian baseline could help, maybe even a earthen wall totem just for solo. Personally I’d like to see a new mechanic, earth as a elemental is often over looked and I’m sure we can do better then earth shield.

[Oturanboa]

It’s amazing we still hadn’t received anything for how squishy we still are. True the tuning of our healing could go up, but we’re really lacking a defensive, not just for pvp but for pve too. Bringing back shamanistic rage could be good, but it’s a little too similar to astral shift. Natures guardian baseline could help, maybe even a earthen wall totem just for solo. Personally I’d like to see a new mechanic, earth as a elemental is often over looked and I’m sure we can do better then earth shield.

Yes. I've always wanted earthen wall totem to be baseline. If it's too much utility for grp. We can have it as a CD buff to cast. Its somewhat unique. Stronger against melee which kills enhancement easiest.

They seem to want enhancement in a good place. A good defensive is a must in any content. If they cant be bothered with tuning, even a flat damage reduction or passive health regain would do. Not ideal but still..

[lollerlaban]

Like in WoD? That special time when enhancement was more fun that it ever has been than at any other point in the game? A man can dream

It was also ridiculously broken, so much that it was nerfed like 2 times

[Razaron]

It was also ridiculously broken, so much that it was nerfed like 2 times

Considering how broken Hailstorm is right now, it's be quite nice to get another very powerful aoe mechanic for another talent.

Saying that I also think our talents aren't organised very well. For one you get things like Nature's Guardian, a very powerful defensive, on the same line as a mobility talent in Feral Lunge. I'd like to see them clean the tree up more and make choices based on preference rather then what's best for the META.

For example the Fire Nova/Hailstorm line could be all about AoE style, then we could have a defensive line, etc, etc.

Some other talents I'd like to see removed are Totem Mastery, Earthen Spike, Crashing Storm. They're just really lackluster, Earthen Spike may have had it's time in the past whereas numbers are concerned, but for the bottom line of talent row it's never been epic enough.

Speaking of the bottom row, what will it take for Roll the Wolves to fixed? It's simple, just add one of each elemental wolf, less RNG, you know what you're getting. It's a ideal fix.

I've never been a fan of Ascendance, it's why I like it as a talent, I never have to choose it. But if the model was changed and gave a Unending Resolve type effect, where your character is still there but with graphics over the top, I'd love that. Also, lets get rid of the Windstrike effect and bring back the lightning, for god sake.

More on effects, Windfury Imbue should reset the weapon swing animation, that way it looks like you're actually hitting more then once. It's sad that vanilla has a better effect for Windfury then retail, now it's just a little fart around your hands and feet. That's a lot of the changes I'd like too see off the top of my head, on top of the defensives I mentioned 3 posts up. Also tune 2H blizzard with the spec, it may take time to work it with item drops and numbers, but it'll be worth it for the joy of just being able to swing a great weapon again.

[Nitwit]

2) Can you prepare a log with a build that includes hailstorm? Would be awesome if you can make it 7min long to make it easier for us to compare.

Eventually I can do another - for now I only have one against the 4 target aoe dummies.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=1

The talent is kind of just blatantly overtuned, so not much to really talk about for it.

[kosajk]

Eventually I can do another - for now I only have one against the 4 target aoe dummies.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=1

The talent is kind of just blatantly overtuned, so not much to really talk about for it.

they will make 75% dmg part not increase with stack for sure, to keep it in line with other talents from same row, it will just affect number of targets it hits,
eventually they can do 15-20% dmg increase per stack that would work to i suppose although i prefer the first wariant for pvp reasons :P

[Oturanboa]

I would love frost shock to remain impactful. Not as much as 3k crits with current numbers but still... If MSW LB could do damage around that estimate, it would really make the spec shine. Would turn MSW into a meaningful mechanic. Lower cast count can fix dps.

Hailstorm still sounds very good even if they halve the damage.

And kosajk suggested stormstrike to have "charges" in this thread. I couldn't appreciate the idea "enough" when he said it lol. I think it's a great idea but ofc i dont know if it would be too op. It could feel like old windfury. Would negate some of the punishing mechanics we have on pve and could become awesome for pvp. Warriors have 2 charges with raging blow. Rogues can hold back with enery. DKs have it with both runes and runic power... Then resetting or reducing SS cd would feel less like a bloat. Specially with expected haste train into expension.

Spec totally revolves around stormstrike. Enhancement = stormstrike. Making it easier for us to plan should be a given. Ever since stormbringer mechanic introduced it has relied a little too much on RNG. Missing a cast or gaining a reset while being unable to use, directly punishes damage done. Not getting a proc just foils all your plans. Now you can just reduce your dps by not casting it and keeping it for later when you activate your cds. This sounds like an awesome fix for many situations. Also a controlled burst... Would feel awesome both in pve and pvp. Making enhancement a beast of an "opener". Maybe 3 max charges for SS? For a true wf call back? With GCD of course. Too op? I don't think so. Damage of it isn't that high.

I'm glad to be returning to cooldown based rotation but having so much reset/reduce on SS takes away what's good about cooldowns. Having charges can rebuild that feeling.

What do you guys think?

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It would also work great with new talent to reset shock timer by giving a choise. You can either follow normal rotation to fully benefit msw charges and shock cd reset along with hailstorm, to increase your dps in the long run. Or you can lean in by spamming stormstrike to get in the burst for the kill. Eventually ending with basicly a guaranteed msw LB and hailstormed frostshock. Would be a terrific execution of mechanics.

This would just increase the depth of the class by a lot. Ofc numbers should relate to each other in the correct way to make it a meaningful choise. I think they can pull it off.

After so many years. Enhancement deserves to be on par with normal classes.

[apelsinjuice]

fire nova talent will be useless without any good way to spread flameshocks, no reason to pick it over hailstorm at the moment

but have not seen any legendaries so far and they also talked about maybe brining set bonuses back, so who knows maybe we get something to spread flame shocks

im more worried about still not getting any more defence abilities/passives

[Kalarm]

It was also ridiculously broken, so much that it was nerfed like 2 times

Our ST DMG was shit. They had to buff SS + LL DMG through the expansion. Our AoE tho. Boy was that powerful!

[lollerlaban]

Our ST DMG was shit. They had to buff SS + LL DMG through the expansion. Our AoE tho. Boy was that powerful!

That's why any sane raidleader just made you the designated aoe damage dealer, it was the way to boost our ST dps everytime any sort of add popped up

[Kalarm]

And kosajk suggested stormstrike to have "charges" in this thread. I couldn't appreciate the idea "enough" when he said it lol. I think it's a great idea but ofc i dont know if it would be too op. It could feel like old windfury. Would negate some of the punishing mechanics we have on pve and could become awesome for pvp. Warriors have 2 charges with raging blow. Rogues can hold back with enery. DKs have it with both runes and runic power... Then resetting or reducing SS cd would feel less like a bloat. Specially with expected haste train into expension.

After so many years. Enhancement deserves to be on par with normal classes.

I'd appreciate SS charges. In WoD Echo was the goto talent and it made for some fun gameplay in challenge mode. 2 charges of SS would open up space for bursts as well as making the stormfury talent not as... frustrating. It's going to suck when you get lucky and get 2 procs in a row, get SS almost off CD and boom SB proc that "wastes" it. 2 charges would mean not losing both SB and SF procs. My only concern is that it's going back into putting too much on SS. I wonder if stormfury shouldn't reduce the CD on LL instead? Maybe LL could get 2 charges and that would be the interesting part? It's missing a lot of love, it's really not doing anything if not talented. It had the reset mechanic in MoP (tier bonus) and WoD but that was given to SS. At times I do wonder if SS should go back to being simplier so that it can deal more DMG. SB is fun but it ultimately makes it hard to balance. A class can only do as much DMG as the others.

I love windfury, I wish they gave it back it's pretty animation, but I do think the idea of making it an actual attack could be studied. Maybe they could put it's proc chance back to 20% or something.

My todo list would be this.

- Make LL interesting without talent. (also change / remove lashing flame talent, it's way too boring).
- Make LB do a higher % of our DMG. It should be meaningful.
- Make WF interesting too.

I'd be ok with them removing flametongue altogether so the DMG can be rolled out into something else, but I know that won't happen. I'm happy with the current direction the spec is taking. It's mostly needs abilities to be interesting.

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That's why any sane raidleader just made you the designated aoe damage dealer, it was the way to boost our ST dps everytime any sort of add popped up

The big problem we had in WoD was that there wasn't that many bosses where the AoE would outweight our ST problems. There was but but there was also a fair bit of ST. Out of all the expansions, HM and BRF were the only raid I'd have people complain about my DPS. I was pugging a lot back then. Come HFC it was okay and had no trouble but the road there was rocky. Challenge modes tho. OMG those were a blast. Specially with the blademaster trinket.

[apelsinjuice]

looking at some alpha videos of new changes it does look pretty good, aoe with crash lightning, 5 msw chain lightning into frost chock.

Single target rotation seems to have some downtime inbetween cooldowns which is fine as it will probably get better at level 60 and higher haste

[Oturanboa]

"charges for SS" seems to take off on us forums. Nice to see.

About flametongue damage. I've always disliked it. It's a very low incomparable damage that takes up space on screen and attention from you for nothing. Can it be turned into a cooler effect instead of negligible damage?

- Turns your offhand auto attacks into fire damage (basicly a lot of armor penetration only for offhand auto attack)
- Gives all your attacks some armor penetration
- Gives extra %5 crit chance to fire attacks
- Gives extra %1 crit chance to all attacks
- Gives leech? Please? yeah unlikely

Or or or here's something more exciting

- You click flametongue and then one of your damage or healing spells (instead of weapon) to augment it to have an effect like %15-20 crit chance or something? Too much work?

This way, it could also be used by elemental/resto (and 2h prep? lol). I don't know if its cool to "enhance" spells instead of damage but still..

Something else entirely maybe? I know this sounds awfully like DK runes but still. What you think? Flametongue currently is really... meeh.

[Vivedesiderata]

This was discussed earlier but if DW is built around SS. Why not just make it so 2H is built around LL. They won't have to change much. Rockbiter is gone next xpac. Weapon brands are back instead of the melee attack brands. So the ONLY TWO actual melee abilities are SS and LL. SO just make a talent and or baseline passive that puts all the SS procs into lava lash and problem solved. As for dps. Idk have mini wf procs like, = to 1.5 extra hits or whatever the math works out to to equal the extra hits you're missing out on from not DW. What do we think? Pls don't flame me

[Oturanboa]

Honestly, i am all in for 2h but! When you mention that, discussion turns into something else. Lets keep 2h discussion in 2h thread.

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well, now we can REALLY think of a better way about flametongue! lewl

[Razaron]

Honestly, i am all in for 2h but! When you mention that, discussion turns into something else. Lets keep 2h discussion in 2h thread.

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well, now we can REALLY think of a better way about flametongue! lewl

Perhaps because a large portion of the shaman community has always wanted 2H shaman back in some form. With Blizzard bring back 2H for Frost DK's and Monks it feels like shamans are getting shafted, even now we've just seen Fury get DW 1H back with a aura fix. It's something they could do for Enhancement, yes it will take work but frankly it's their job. Having options in a RPG to me is pretty much essential and it sucks that it appears they're not even entertaining the idea.

[Dreigar]

I myself applaud the fact they're removing the bloat, and try having synergy between spells.

- Bloatwise, remember WoTLK, where we basically were gcd locked, dont wat to go back to that

- Synergy, example: the flow with maelstrom stacks >> chain lightning >> crash lightning, hailstorm and stormstrike. For me personally gives depth to a spec

My issues however is pvp, pve we will be viable most of the times
As enhancement we have issues with our survivability
- Alot of other classes can heal without a (big)damage penalty, DK deathstrike, DH's insane leech,talented touch of karma, and go on. Maybe the addition of healing stream and mw stacks to 10 will help out
- And we also remain squicy compared to other classes, due to no real nice big defensive cd. The filosophy of glass canon, which i can live with, only works if it is carried out over more classes.
Just curious to see how we will stand out pvp wise. True its still too soon, only aplha, and dont get me wrong liking the changes so far. But as a diclaimer: these are my personal concerns, enh sham is the spec - class I always enjoyed the most fantasy wise.
.

[apelsinjuice]

I dont think blizzard will do much more changes to ench shaman now before live besides number tuning

[Razaron]

I dont think blizzard will do much more changes to ench shaman now before live besides number tuning

Litterally a week ago they changed up the whole spec, as long as it's in Alpha there's a chance at dramatic changes.

We still need a lot of work, especially on our survivability in PVP and PVE, we're very weak. Also some talents just don't work well or are very boring.

Aesthetically we could use some changes, this is what I'd do off the top of my head.

Shocks need to have a more prominent graphical efx.
Spells like lightning bolt and shocks shouldn't make you sheathe your weapons whilst casting them, we're a melee hybrid, lets keep our weapons out whilst casting.
Windfury should cancel the weapon swing anitmation and attack again, like vanilla. It doesn't feel or even look like you've attacked again.
Windfury should also have a better graphical efx then a faint wind blowing around your ankles and wrists.
Lightning Bolt jagged graphic looks very dated and needs improving.
Lightning Shield could potentially use a update and clips horribly on some avatars.
Weapon Imbues efx haven't been updated since vanilla.
An option to hide weapon imbues on weapons through glyphs.
Ascendance model from Cataclysm has always been horrible IMO, I'd rather keep the players avatar but add some graphical efx over them, look to Unending Resolve from warlocks for inspiration.

[Pum]

- Turns your offhand auto attacks into fire damage (basicly a lot of armor penetration only for offhand auto attack)
- Gives all your attacks some armor penetration
- Gives extra %5 crit chance to fire attacks
- Gives extra %1 crit chance to all attacks
- Gives leech? Please? yeah unlikely

Put Feral Lunge base line, swap the talent for Flametongue Weapon to give a leech effect, ‘cauterising’ a given % of wounds based off missing health, and have it on a PPM so it isn’t really OP as we get knee deep in haste (haste only effects it while it’s procced).

Something like that would be nice for some passive heals and would get you a little more excited when FT procs.