Why Don't Blizz's Writers Respect Their Predecessors?

[Mehrunes]

To be fair, under Metzen there was at least a rock'n'roll 'soul' to the franchise. Sure, he was guilty of his share of glaring retcons (the draenei retcon in particular is one he never quite lived down during his tenure at Blizzard) but the cracks really started to show when he began stepping back and handed control of Warcraft over to Afrasiabi and Fargo during Cataclysm. Credit where due, Golden is at least trying to maintain some level of narrative cohesion and patching up holes where she can, but she's hamstrung by the same issue that's hamstrung the lore team for over a decade now:

She is? The same Golden that couldn't be bothered to make research into the Forsaken as rudimentary as playing their first goddamn post-Cataclysm quest despite being unfamiliar with the race by her own later admission, which led to things as idiotic as Sylvanas herself calling Faol a Forsaken in the very same sentence in which she pondered the fact he hasn't joined her people? Which not only shits all over that very first quest of the race, its lore as a hole but even on something as basic as the concept of membership in something? And the "best" part is that in her prior book she wrote about some Death Knights in the Alliance, so her treating "Forsaken" as some stand in term for any any all free willed undead in BtS is inconsistent even with her own work. If that was her trying, I dread to think what nonsensical stories she'll write once she stops.

[Gaidax]

I think it's a usual pattern in MMO-C and overall that clueless people just flock over and screech "retcon" and "baed writers" at everything. In reality, things are not so one-sided.

BFA has plenty of good and satisfying stories. My top pick is Jaina's one, really well done on that one, did justice to the character. Zandalar story as a whole was pretty good too, which culminated in a great raid with a good story there. One can argue whether the whole fake war was needed, but we got the motives for that given too and they do make sense now.

People who are talking about how BFA war premise was weird miss a huge point - the war was engineered, it was not a natural occurrence and that's the whole point going forward. As a whole there is a coherent story going on that will go several expansions forward, we're only beginning to understand what actually is going on and even now it's still very murky and it's fine - that's how things should be for them to be interesting.

[Soon-TM]

To a certain extent, the story in WoW feels a lot like The Simpsons', in the sense that it has been stretched out due to an immense initial popularity, and the cracks are easily visible now. To me, WoW's story ended with the death of Arthas - not that it was Shakespeare or anything, but it was at least relatable.

Everything that came afterwards has felt more and more fabricated, culminating in the HORRIBLE story of BfA, aka MoP 2.0. Which is quite ironic, given that the first MoP was quite a good expansion lorewise. Even Garrosh's downfall (my least favourite part) was far more nuanced and better presented than REEEEE Suevanas - at least, we didn't have the main antagonist lying to himself (and by proxy, to the public) in his !@#$ing internal monologues.

[Nerovar]

The worst insult they could do to a prior story would be to simply pretend it never existed.

So you think they respect prior stories by shitting on character arcs that were already supposed to be complete? Because this is exactly what they're doing with Alexandros Mograine in Shadowlands. Did Darion Mograine sacrifice himself to trade his father's place with the Scourge just so Alexandros could end up in a might makes right afterlife that is pretty much modeled after the Scourge and he's not even reunited with his wife?
Hey, but least they got to recycle a major lore character. Epic.

It's such a weird idea that the afterlives are a thing of distaste even for Azeroth's greatest heroes like Uther and Mograine. Because it would really be too far fetched that these people would end up in the Light or reunited with their ancestors. Instead they have to work as mercenaries for some weird, contrived afterlife armies fighting for ressources. Also what about all the civilians?
Do you think it's respectful that none of the characters we cared about that died in the lore actually went to a better place (maybe except for Bridenbrad)?

[voidox]

Blizzard writers now change the lore/history of warcraft to fit their (terrible) stories rather than writing stories that fit established lore/history unfortunately blizzard don't care about the story cause it's just about "rule of cool" and danuser is a terrible lead narrative designer :/

[Worldbreaker]

I'm sure we've all heard the rumors by now, that a large part of WoW's devs hate Chronicle and see it as 'constraining' them, and prefer to make up new stuff on the fly.

We've also seen issues time and time again in the writing where characters will change dramatically, or repeat plot arcs over and over again...

There are palpable concerns that BFA was a repeat of the Alliance vs. Horde war arc we saw in Cata/MoP simply because new folks on the writing staff wanted to 'do it right'.


Does anyone else feel that instead of seeing their previous writers as building a framework and foundation for them to build on, and to be inspired by, that they're instead disrespecting the writers who came before them?

Is each generation of writers just treating their position like a chance to write in their own fanfic rather than building a cohesive narrative?

Cause that's what it sure feels like.

Chronicle itself isn't respecting prior lore. Blizzard doesn't respect their own lore. That's why the Warcraft movie sucked. The people who made it weren't aware of what was interesting about the story of Warcraft.

[tristannarutofan]

Chronicle itself isn't respecting prior lore. Blizzard doesn't respect their own lore. That's why the Warcraft movie sucked. The people who made it weren't aware of what was interesting about the story of Warcraft.

please, most people liked the movie. Why cant nerds figure out adaptions arent suppose to be the original created scene for scene, thats why its an adaption.

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I'm sure we've all heard the rumors by now, that a large part of WoW's devs hate Chronicle and see it as 'constraining' them, and prefer to make up new stuff on the fly.

We've also seen issues time and time again in the writing where characters will change dramatically, or repeat plot arcs over and over again...

There are palpable concerns that BFA was a repeat of the Alliance vs. Horde war arc we saw in Cata/MoP simply because new folks on the writing staff wanted to 'do it right'.


Does anyone else feel that instead of seeing their previous writers as building a framework and foundation for them to build on, and to be inspired by, that they're instead disrespecting the writers who came before them?

Is each generation of writers just treating their position like a chance to write in their own fanfic rather than building a cohesive narrative?

Cause that's what it sure feels like.

Do you have even the slightest bit of evidence as to what you are saying? What rumors? are rumors facts now?

what characters are changing dramatically? i hope this isnt about sylvannas or jaina as no one who actually pays attention could think that. Yes the person who wanted to create a plague to destroy all life, and said she hates the forsaken in 2009 isnt a good person, and believe it or not someone can feel guilty about killing their father and still think they were right to do it.

the idea of bfa being a repeat of the war arc is dumb because like...the alliance and horde have been fighting for 35 years. Has no one here heard of world war 2? Horde had fascist xenophobes in cataclysm and they didnt get rid of all of them and so the xenophobes came back into power again.

I'd love to see some actual evidence as to what you are saying

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She is? The same Golden that couldn't be bothered to make research into the Forsaken as rudimentary as playing their first goddamn post-Cataclysm quest despite being unfamiliar with the race by her own later admission, which led to things as idiotic as Sylvanas herself calling Faol a Forsaken in the very same sentence in which she pondered the fact he hasn't joined her people? Which not only shits all over that very first quest of the race, its lore as a hole but even on something as basic as the concept of membership in something? And the "best" part is that in her prior book she wrote about some Death Knights in the Alliance, so her treating "Forsaken" as some stand in term for any any all free willed undead in BtS is inconsistent even with her own work. If that was her trying, I dread to think what nonsensical stories she'll write once she stops.

sorry but your pros are kinda incoherent. SO i'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say.

but its been long known that there is forsaken, slang for intelligent undead, and The Forsaken, the political faction.

if your point is that professional writers are never allowed to make mistakes then i'd suggest you not criticize writing ever, because that is an impossible standard and you should probably chill out. writers are people to and its stupid to try to act like they arent doing their job or doing it well cus there was a slight possible inconsenstency if you squint hard enough, that is largely irrelevant

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I think it's a usual pattern in MMO-C and overall that clueless people just flock over and screech "retcon" and "baed writers" at everything. In reality, things are not so one-sided.

BFA has plenty of good and satisfying stories. My top pick is Jaina's one, really well done on that one, did justice to the character. Zandalar story as a whole was pretty good too, which culminated in a great raid with a good story there. One can argue whether the whole fake war was needed, but we got the motives for that given too and they do make sense now.

People who are talking about how BFA war premise was weird miss a huge point - the war was engineered, it was not a natural occurrence and that's the whole point going forward. As a whole there is a coherent story going on that will go several expansions forward, we're only beginning to understand what actually is going on and even now it's still very murky and it's fine - that's how things should be for them to be interesting.

oh thank god someone with some sense. Exaclty. Like sylvannas needed the occupation in order to force the horde's hand. So long as they occupied teldrassil she could convince them that any attempts to free the population is an attack on horde military, and they had reason to keep teldrassil to defend kalimdor. Since her plan was screwed up since it hinged on taking out the two demi gods who rules the elves, she had to do something else. for the horde population it was a horrible tragedy that made them realize that they were wrong to start this war BUT IT DIDNT MATTER because now the war was in full swing. the Alliance wasnt going to just LET it happen. So Sylvannas DIDNT GET WHAT SHE WANTED but she manipulated her loss into a different kind of win. She lost the battle because no doubt she wanted a long drawn out war and more time to push pawns in place and cause more death over a longer period of time. but it failed and so she decided to try for less death, but all at once.

Thats like..the whole point of the story , is that the horde were being manipulated and forced into this war, they had to go on the offensive because their own fears, and prejudice demanded that they make the first move now that the war with the alliance was official.

and god help me if i have to explain that the person who obliterated 2 cities with genocidal weapons, doing it a third time, is completely in character

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but yes, i got dreailed. the point is its EASy for people to criticize, and often people refuse to ask themselves what they are missing, and just choose to assume that the trained professional is being dumb.

Like i didnt sit through years of literature class being one of the only 2 people who understood the story enough to answer the professors questions, to assume EVERYONE on the internet knows how to criticize plot and pros

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To a certain extent, the story in WoW feels a lot like The Simpsons', in the sense that it has been stretched out due to an immense initial popularity, and the cracks are easily visible now. To me, WoW's story ended with the death of Arthas - not that it was Shakespeare or anything, but it was at least relatable.

Everything that came afterwards has felt more and more fabricated, culminating in the HORRIBLE story of BfA, aka MoP 2.0. Which is quite ironic, given that the first MoP was quite a good expansion lorewise. Even Garrosh's downfall (my least favourite part) was far more nuanced and better presented than REEEEE Suevanas - at least, we didn't have the main antagonist lying to himself (and by proxy, to the public) in his !@#$ing internal monologues.

are fanboys still mad because Sylvannas didnt let everyone know about the new abilities she got and calling her a mary sue because she beat some dead guy whos never fought in any battles since he got his new powers?

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So you think they respect prior stories by shitting on character arcs that were already supposed to be complete? Because this is exactly what they're doing with Alexandros Mograine in Shadowlands. Did Darion Mograine sacrifice himself to trade his father's place with the Scourge just so Alexandros could end up in a might makes right afterlife that is pretty much modeled after the Scourge and he's not even reunited with his wife?
Hey, but least they got to recycle a major lore character. Epic.

It's such a weird idea that the afterlives are a thing of distaste even for Azeroth's greatest heroes like Uther and Mograine. Because it would really be too far fetched that these people would end up in the Light or reunited with their ancestors. Instead they have to work as mercenaries for some weird, contrived afterlife armies fighting for ressources. Also what about all the civilians?
Do you think it's respectful that none of the characters we cared about that died in the lore actually went to a better place (maybe except for Bridenbrad)?

1) maladraxxas is as much the good guys as Bastion is
2) yes i think that a PALADIN would want to protect the people responsible for making sure most souls are safe and live a happy afterlife. You do realize that Maladraxxas is that way cus its the shadowlands Military?
3) The entire point of us going to the shadowlands is that their system is imperfect and the covenant campaign will be us making things better.
4) where does it say a story is only satisfactory if souls end up with their family. I certainly dont want to spend my time with my family. that would be hell. The question is if the souls have peace and are happy with their afterlives.
Do you have any quest text that suggests Morgraine ISNT happy with being a protector of the shadowlands?

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Blizzard writers now change the lore/history of warcraft to fit their (terrible) stories rather than writing stories that fit established lore/history unfortunately blizzard don't care about the story cause it's just about "rule of cool" and danuser is a terrible lead narrative designer :/

Do you have an example?

[SirBeef]

Blizzard has never actually cared about there writing even when metzen was in control there were retcons holes all over The place there’s no reason to think it would have gotten better under new writers.

This. I'd like to remember a time when Blizzard actually cared about telling a good story, but it just isn't there. I think too often, too many conflate liking a story to it being a good one. Arthas in WC3 for example. Cliched and boring, but many liked it. It wasn't really good. Just like McDonald's. Very popular but garbage food.

[tristannarutofan]

This. I'd like to remember a time when Blizzard actually cared about telling a good story, but it just isn't there. I think too often, too many conflate liking a story to it being a good one. Arthas in WC3 for example. Cliched and boring, but many liked it. It wasn't really good. Just like McDonald's. Very popular but garbage food.

thats fair, the people making the game care more about making a fun game cus thats their job. the story is just there for more awesomeness. get the original people and they will talk your ear off about cool spikes and awesome demons.

None of them are TRYING to be GRR Martin or...whoever fantasy nerds are feeling up these days. They are just trying to make a fun game and as good writers (Jim Butcher, who changed his character after learning more about him after book 2, Rich Berlew who doesnt let the old story stop him from making a better one now, Taika Waiti who said he never watched Thor 1 or 2) will tell you that you shouldnt let old canon, and plot points and plot holes keep you from making the story you want.

ACTUAL writers make shit up all the time. THey make characters just to fill plot holes, they completely forget about major factors until after their story is published. Because writers are not some gods trying to get you to worship them, they are just people trying to tell a story for you to enjoy and maybe earn a living doing it.

its a game, its fun, its silly, its really not all that serious. And being nasty is no way to interact with it

[Nerovar]

1) maladraxxas is as much the good guys as Bastion is

No.

2) yes i think that a PALADIN would want to protect the people responsible for making sure most souls are safe and live a happy afterlife. You do realize that Maladraxxas is that way cus its the shadowlands Military?

I don't really care for whatever contrived reasoning they came up with to make Maldraxxus what it is. Also no, I don't think any human Paladin would give a damn about protecting random ass souls by fighting in an army of undead monstrosities. Their obligations lie with the Light and its believers first and foremost.

3) The entire point of us going to the shadowlands is that their system is imperfect and the covenant campaign will be us making things better.

The premise is shit therefor it's okay to dunk on established characters and undermine their character arcs. Got it.

I certainly dont want to spend my time with my family. that would be hell.

See, most people would say the same thing about being forcibly enlisted in an army of undead after spending your life fighting armies of undead that forcibly "enlist" people.

Do you have any quest text that suggests Morgraine ISNT happy with being a protector of the shadowlands?

A real big brain question. Mograine, the Paladin that is most well-known for slaying undead surely couldn't have thought of a better afterlife for himself than one where he is constantly surrounded by scheming, warring undead. Of course Blizzard's writing team can look beyond all that and let him spew some exposition like "You know. Undead are bad and all but I'm happy here ". That's what this entire thread is all about.

[Worldbreaker]

please, most people liked the movie

hahahaha no

Why cant nerds figure out adaptions arent suppose to be the original created scene for scene, thats why its an adaption.

Oh that's rich. Calling fans of the original nerds. You think you're cooler than a nerd posting on an online forum about a video game with elves and orcs?

What do you mean scene by scene? The source material isn't a movie. It's a video game with a barebones story that was mainly told through mission briefings and manuals, with two different campaigns that contradict each other.

That doesn't mean that you should change things just for the sake of them being completely different. Especially when it makes certain plot points in future installments impossible.

The best example is Turalyon in the book for Tides of Darkness, which tells the story of Warcraft 2.

Turalyon has lost his faith in the light, because he can't comprehend how the light can be a force of good, when it allows for creatues as vile as the orcs to exist in their world. Only at the end does he realize that the orcs aren't from Azeroth, but from a different world. This makes him regain his faith in the light, which turns the tide and makes the humans win the battle against the orcs, culminating in Turalyon defeating Orgrim Doomhammer.

However in the Warcraft movie, which shows us the events of Warcraft 1, the humans learn from Garona that the orcs are from a different world. How can Turalyon several years later then not know that?

The answer is he will know about it (although a second Warcraft movie will never be made), which makes his entire arc impossible.

This is just one of many examples among other retarded decisions like Medivh being a ginger that looks nothing like Medivh.

The movie was complete and utter garbage. Not only as a Warcraft movie, but as a movie in and of itself.

[Powerogue]

but its been long known that there is forsaken, slang for intelligent undead, and The Forsaken, the political faction.

Kinda. I always interpreted it as a blurry line. The Forsaken were Sylvanas's group, but any free-willed undead that did not join her, but also did not stand in opposition of her, were left alone, like Lilian Voss. She didn't officially join The Forsaken(TM) until BFA, but she was still a forsaken for all intents and purposes as a free-willed undead who was in good graces with The Forsaken (TM) as she went around annihilating the scarlet crusade and scourge necromancers.

All comes off as splitting hairs over a distinction Blizzard never saw worth making narratively important to me.

And as for the Shadowlands changes to the whole afterlife situation, I'll tell you when I get there, I'm not reading spoilers. Just take it all with a grain of salt knowing we're working with fragmented, out-of-context pieces of the story that can and will change by the time the expansion is released.

[Soon-TM]

are fanboys still mad because Sylvannas didnt let everyone know about the new abilities she got and calling her a mary sue because she beat some dead guy whos never fought in any battles since he got his new powers?

Her lying in a dialog with another character would have been ok, it would have even fit her character. But in an internal monologue? Stop excusing shoddy writing, dude/tte.

Btw, I didn't know that pointing flaws in the writing of a certain character makes you automatically a fanboi. Guess I'm an Anduin fanboi too in that case, since I've pointed the writing flaws in him as well...

PS: for someone with such an authoritative tone when it comes to writing, I must tell you that your punctuation and syntax do BLOW. Try to focus more on those issues before lecturing others in a totally non-nerd environment such as MMOC

[Mehrunes]

I think it's a usual pattern in MMO-C and overall that clueless people just flock over and screech "retcon" and "baed writers" at everything. In reality, things are not so one-sided.

What's even more of a pattern is that whenever Blizzard is criticized on this site you'll be there to valiantly defend them. Though in this case your defense is particularly poor. Because all you've got are just empty buzzwords that straw-men the shit out of the criticism instead of you addressing anything in specific (could it be that if you tried to address criticism of a story so ridden with retcons its writers felt the need to apologize for them at some points you'd be unable to make an actual defense of Blizzard...). But hey, painting yourself as the only person with a clue while not actually saying anything technically counts as a strategy of sort.

BFA has plenty of good and satisfying stories. My top pick is Jaina's one, really well done on that one, did justice to the character. Zandalar story as a whole was pretty good too, which culminated in a great raid with a good story there. One can argue whether the whole fake war was needed, but we got the motives for that given too and they do make sense now

That sense is particularly sensible in cases where Sylvanas' inner monologues from as recently as pre-BfA book material have already been retconned by BfA (and by Blizzcon reveals in some cases, like her attitude towards being the Warchief).

please, most people liked the movie. Why cant nerds figure out adaptions arent suppose to be the original created scene for scene, thats why its an adaption.

Not only is Warcraft movie a commercial failure that contradicts the idea that it was particularly liked, but as @Worldbreaker already said, your remark about adaptations is a straw-man that has squat to do with what they originally said.

the idea of bfa being a repeat of the war arc is dumb because like...the alliance and horde have been fighting for 35 years. Has no one here heard of world war 2? Horde had fascist xenophobes in cataclysm and they didnt get rid of all of them and so the xenophobes came back into power again.

Except Danuser flat out said just three months ago that BfA was an intended retread of MoP. If you're going to be Blizzard's valiant defender, shouldn't you at least familiarize yourself with their own defense of their story? Not doing so strikes me as a rather poor standard of valiant defense. What's even funnier is that Danuser's comment in question is a signature of a poster that not only posted in this very thread and on this very page of this thread, but someone you replied to in this post of yours as well.

sorry but your pros are kinda incoherent. SO i'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say.

but its been long known that there is forsaken, slang for intelligent undead, and The Forsaken, the political faction.

if your point is that professional writers are never allowed to make mistakes then i'd suggest you not criticize writing ever, because that is an impossible standard and you should probably chill out. writers are people to and its stupid to try to act like they arent doing their job or doing it well cus there was a slight possible inconsenstency if you squint hard enough, that is largely irrelevant

My pros? No meaning of the word pro makes any sense in this context. And given that not only is what I wrote written in proper English but that you also somehow managed to get my point despite my "incoherent pros" indicates this is nothing more than a pile of nonsense you created to throw shade at me in a dishonest attempt to preemptively discredit me.

Also, pray tell, how could something you pulled out of the nether right now have been long known? The idea that forsaken is a slang for intelligent undead is pure fanfiction. Which is why Golden didn't use that term when writing about Alliance Death Knights in her other books. And which is why the group of free-willed undead in the Cataclysm Forsaken starting questline isn't referred to as Forsaken as well. Instead they are called Rotbrain. Funny thing is that I browse the 9.0 thread from time to time and just recently you posted you have never leveled Forsaken above level 20. Which means that you have leveled them up to 20 and as such you should be aware of the questline in question. Yet you are not.

And my point is by no means that writers are never allowed to make mistakes. Don't put words in my mouth because you feel the weird need to carry water for Blizzard. My point was quite explicitly that this particular mistake could have been easily avoided with the most rudimentary of research into the topic. Like, 30 seconds of research. You'd spend more time creating the character and loading to Tirisfal than you'd spend on getting to the piece of lore in question. Which, consequently, indicates how piss-poor the standards of writing are at this company.

Because being unable to play even the first quest of a race you're writing about, especially one that you're unfamiliar with by your own admission, is a perfect example of Blizzard's writers not doing their job well. Especially since it's not a slight "possible" inconsistency as the subject of who is or isn't a Forsaken is significant to their identity and their behavior, it's not an inconsistency only if one squints hard enough because your argument in favor of that claim is your headcanon but it's by no means the only inconsistency about Forsaken alone in that book.

are fanboys still mad because Sylvannas didnt let everyone know about the new abilities she got and calling her a mary sue because she beat some dead guy whos never fought in any battles since he got his new powers?

Is this anything that @Soon-TM actually said or are you just projecting your straw-men at people again?

1) maladraxxas is as much the good guys as Bastion is

Maldraxxus forces invaded all other zones and are treated as an enemy in them.

thats fair, the people making the game care more about making a fun game cus thats their job. the story is just there for more awesomeness. get the original people and they will talk your ear off about cool spikes and awesome demons.

None of them are TRYING to be GRR Martin or...whoever fantasy nerds are feeling up these days. They are just trying to make a fun game and as good writers (Jim Butcher, who changed his character after learning more about him after book 2, Rich Berlew who doesnt let the old story stop him from making a better one now, Taika Waiti who said he never watched Thor 1 or 2) will tell you that you shouldnt let old canon, and plot points and plot holes keep you from making the story you want.

ACTUAL writers make shit up all the time. THey make characters just to fill plot holes, they completely forget about major factors until after their story is published. Because writers are not some gods trying to get you to worship them, they are just people trying to tell a story for you to enjoy and maybe earn a living doing it.

Why are you bringing up writers making up characters (when all characters in fiction tend to be made up) or filling up plot holes (which, you know, is seen as a positive thing) when none of these things have anything to do with the topic of the thread? Someone with your education should know the difference between blatant inconsistencies, retcons and the like that the OP is clearly referring to and what you mentioned here.

Kinda. I always interpreted it as a blurry line. The Forsaken were Sylvanas's group, but any free-willed undead that did not join her, but also did not stand in opposition of her, were left alone, like Lilian Voss. She didn't officially join The Forsaken(TM) until BFA, but she was still a forsaken for all intents and purposes as a free-willed undead who was in good graces with The Forsaken (TM) as she went around annihilating the scarlet crusade and scourge necromancers.

All comes off as splitting hairs over a distinction Blizzard never saw worth making narratively important to me.

Except there's absolutely no link (logical, linguistic or of any other variety one may think of) whatsoever between the undead that did not oppose her being left alone and the idea that this made them "non-TM" Forsaken. JFC, the depths you'll sink to to vindicate Blizzard and its fuckups... Voss tells it herself that she joined the Forsaken only prior to BfA. At no point has she been called a forsaken prior to that. It's something you pulled out of the nether. And the fact that you pulled it out of the nether makes it blatantly clear that what you tried to project on Blizzard in the second paragraph is a bunch of BS. Which, consequently, makes the remark about splitting hairs fall flat on its face.

Oh, and just for the laughs I re-checked Before the Storm. And imagine my surprise where Faol is repeatedly referred to as a capital "F" Forsaken and not once as a lower case "f" forsaken. So even if the claim of the both of you that lower case "forsaken" has ever been used as a term to describe free-willed undead in general (despite there being zero cases of that ever and multiple cases of different free-willed undead groups having their own names) this would still be a fuck-up and you'd still be wrong. Surprising no one in the process.

[Feanoro]

water carrying

Hi Danuser Cringecaller!

[SirBeef]

thats fair, the people making the game care more about making a fun game cus thats their job. the story is just there for more awesomeness. get the original people and they will talk your ear off about cool spikes and awesome demons.

None of them are TRYING to be GRR Martin or...whoever fantasy nerds are feeling up these days. They are just trying to make a fun game and as good writers (Jim Butcher, who changed his character after learning more about him after book 2, Rich Berlew who doesnt let the old story stop him from making a better one now, Taika Waiti who said he never watched Thor 1 or 2) will tell you that you shouldnt let old canon, and plot points and plot holes keep you from making the story you want.

ACTUAL writers make shit up all the time. THey make characters just to fill plot holes, they completely forget about major factors until after their story is published. Because writers are not some gods trying to get you to worship them, they are just people trying to tell a story for you to enjoy and maybe earn a living doing it.

its a game, its fun, its silly, its really not all that serious. And being nasty is no way to interact with it

Agreed. I take the story in all games to be a bonus if I enjoy it. Videogames are not a good medium.tontell solid stories. TLOU is consider a great story. I find it shallow compared to many movies I've watched and every book I have read. Doesn't mean the game cant be fun as a result.

[Protar95]

To be fair, under Metzen there was at least a rock'n'roll 'soul' to the franchise. Sure, he was guilty of his share of glaring retcons (the draenei retcon in particular is one he never quite lived down during his tenure at Blizzard) but the cracks really started to show when he began stepping back and handed control of Warcraft over to Afrasiabi and Fargo during Cataclysm. Credit where due, Golden is at least trying to maintain some level of narrative cohesion and patching up holes where she can, but she's hamstrung by the same issue that's hamstrung the lore team for over a decade now:

The lore team ultimately has no real say in the story direction. The story will be bent, twisted, and hammered into place to fit whatever the game design team decides needs to happen whenever they come up with a brainchild. Metzen, being one of the old guard, used to have enough pull at the company that he could get the design team to play ball and work alongside him to develop the story; there is no indication of this being the case with the new guard in either department, leading to WoW becoming yet another franchise where the story will be Frankenstein'd into whatever the developers decide it should be, with the story team left to 'figure it out,' oftentimes left with the unenviable job of having to deal with primadonna developers who think pitching the major story beats is the hard part of story development.

I think this is the main issue. Ultimately the game's lore is just used by the developers as a vehicle to deliver new themes for new expansion zones. "We're going to the afterlife so we want a heaven zone, a hell zone, a zombie zone, a nature spirit zone and a gothic vampire zone." How those areas fit into to previous wow lore is worked backwards from there. Sometimes that works wonderfully, Pandaria is a great example. But when every expansion has to bring hitherto unseen monsters and villains it's hard for the writers to not step on the toes of their predecessors.

[TheRevenantHero]

One of the lead writers is fucking Christie Golden, a massive Alliance fangirl that is helping to turn WoW's story into a god awful fan-fiction. They don't give a flying fuck about lore anymore. Shadowlands is retconning massive swaths of the lore, causing the expansion's story to sound like an absolute train wreck.

[ClassicPeon]

I'm sure we've all heard the rumors by now, that a large part of WoW's devs hate Chronicle and see it as 'constraining' them, and prefer to make up new stuff on the fly.

We've also seen issues time and time again in the writing where characters will change dramatically, or repeat plot arcs over and over again...

There are palpable concerns that BFA was a repeat of the Alliance vs. Horde war arc we saw in Cata/MoP simply because new folks on the writing staff wanted to 'do it right'.


Does anyone else feel that instead of seeing their previous writers as building a framework and foundation for them to build on, and to be inspired by, that they're instead disrespecting the writers who came before them?

Is each generation of writers just treating their position like a chance to write in their own fanfic rather than building a cohesive narrative?

Cause that's what it sure feels like.

I know hating on wow's lore is a popular topic on these forums so you are gonna earn some easy likes there. I dont agree with what you are saying though.

I'm sure we've all heard the rumors by now, that a large part of WoW's devs hate Chronicle

Where are these rumors from? I sure havent heard them. Even so, they are rumors. Not to be taken seriously. Move on.

characters will change dramatically, or repeat plot arcs over and over again...

People do change you know? Dramatic events and such. Its quite common. Its called character developement. There is nothing more boring then a token evil person or a token good person who dont dynamicly conform to the world around them.

What plot arcs are you refering to?

There are palpable concerns that BFA was a repeat of the Alliance vs. Horde war arc we saw in Cata/MoP simply because new folks on the writing staff wanted to 'do it right'.

I've seen noone with these concerns. Who are the people having them? The warcraft universe is centered around the alliance vs the horde + external threats.
Them being at war being a recurring thing is one of the trademarks of the franchise oO

Also you are using quotation marks on the "do it right" part. Who said that?

Does anyone else feel that instead of seeing their previous writers as building a framework and foundation for them to build on, and to be inspired by, that they're instead disrespecting the writers who came before them?

I'm sure this sentence will be popular here. I disagree though. Its a subjective thing weather or not you like the story. I dont think anyone is actually disrespectful towards their peers. Also who's to say its not the same people writing the newer fiction? Chronicle isnt that old oO

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One of the lead writers is fucking Christie Golden, a massive Alliance fangirl that is helping to turn WoW's story into a god awful fan-fiction. They don't give a flying fuck about lore anymore. Shadowlands is retconning massive swaths of the lore, causing the expansion's story to sound like an absolute train wreck.

How do you know she is an alliance fangirl and what does that matter for the story? There are other writers besides her. Chris Metzen was a self proclaimed horde fanboy.
When blizzard releases official lore it, by definition, cant be fan-fiction. Just because you dont like it. Its a term you guys use just plain wrong because its been used negatively before.

I do think they care a lot about lore. The lore they write just doesnt conform to what you want. I doubt anything would though.

Retcon, another term misused by people now just because they associate it with a negative meaning. I wonder what you actually think makes the story "sound like an absolute train wreck."

[TheRevenantHero]

I know hating on wow's lore is a popular topic on these forums so you are gonna earn some easy likes there. I dont agree with what you are saying though.



Where are these rumors from? I sure havent heard them. Even so, they are rumors. Not to be taken seriously. Move on.



People do change you know? Dramatic events and such. Its quite common. Its called character developement. There is nothing more boring then a token evil person or a token good person who dont dynamicly conform to the world around them.

What plot arcs are you refering to?



I've seen noone with these concerns. Who are the people having them? The warcraft universe is centered around the alliance vs the horde + external threats.
Them being at war being a recurring thing is one of the trademarks of the franchise oO

Also you are using quotation marks on the "do it right" part. Who said that?



I'm sure this sentence will be popular here. I disagree though. Its a subjective thing weather or not you like the story. I dont think anyone is actually disrespectful towards their peers. Also who's to say its not the same people writing the newer fiction? Chronicle isnt that old oO

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How do you know she is an alliance fangirl and what does that matter for the story? There are other writers besides her. Chris Metzen was a self proclaimed horde fanboy.
When blizzard releases official lore it, by definition, cant be fan-fiction. Just because you dont like it. Its a term you guys use just plain wrong because its been used negatively before.

I do think they care a lot about lore. The lore they write just doesnt conform to what you want. I doubt anything would though.

Retcon, another term misused by people now just because they associate it with a negative meaning. I wonder what you actually think makes the story "sound like an absolute train wreck."

She has said she is a massive Alliance fan. You can see it in ALL her writing. She goes out of here way to villainize the Horde while putting the Alliance on a pedestal. The Alliance is incapable of doing ANYTHING wrong. She's been setting fire to the story ever since she joined the team.

Nathanos is LITERALLY a self-insert and Golden adores Anduin so she does everything she can to make him perfect. BfA and what I've read of Shadowlands literally reads like a really terrible fan-fiction.

I'll list the most egregious lore retcons they are doing for Shadowlands:
1. The Helm of Domination and Frostmourne were now apparently created in the Shadowlands and were stolen by the Nathrezim for Kil'jaedan. Before this retcon, Kil'jaedan created those two artifacts but now he's been turned into a two-bit crook.
2. Sylvanas has been funneling souls to the Jailer since Edge of Night. This is a retcon of lore as recent as BfA when both the Lich King and Bwonsamdi expressed their displeasure with Sylvanas because her necromancy was preventing souls from moving on.
3. The Shadowlands was always a place that was a black and white misty version of whatever planet you were on. There are numerous quests that have you actively entering the Shadowlands. Now, suddenly, it has multiple lands with unique races which makes NO fucking sense.
4. Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination were equally powerful artifacts. Yet when Frostmourne was shattered, all it did was release the souls trapped inside yet when the Helm was broken it ripped a hole in the time space continuum. Makes no fucking sense.

These are just 4 of the worst examples of retconning in Shadowlands. Blizzard absolutely do not fucking care about lore cohesion anymore.