9.0 General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

Yea, I always wonder if that would be great and exciting or more like horryfying
In the War of the Ancients, Tyrande was a novice priest, so if the priesthood changed somewhat before that, even she might say that it's been culturally the way she herself experienced it. There must have been a time before that, because there was even a time before Azshara became queen and they already had a rich culture back then, which was at least in part separate from the Troll culture before. When Azshara took over, they were already 'Nightelves' not 'Trolls', at least as far as we know. So how long was that period, 5k years or also more like 10k years from Troll tribe to Azshara's reign? We know nothing about it and it may have been extremely different from all we and even the 10k year old Nightelves that still live today know, so to claim a 'retcon' because there's male priests from a time no one knows anything about is kind of a stretch, I think.
We also didn't say it's a retcon when we found out that there used to be Nightelven mages back before the War of the Ancients, even tough in the Nightelven culture from WC3 there was no place for mages and that was 10k years old too.

There isn't even much to retcon.

A. We don't know when it happened, except most likely before the WotA.
B. We dont know if the priesthood were always exclusively female.
C. We don't know how the Night Warrior ritual works, we are just making the wild assumption that it has to be a priest becoming the Night Warrior.

[Jamie081]

Nobody in this threat had a problem with them being gay.
It's just weird that they are men if every other instance when Elune has personally communicated with a night elves in the past it was a female and their whole society was based on female spiritual leaders.

Sorry I was speaking generally after reading the wowhead comments. Is there a reason why wowhead is always a cesspit when it comes to comments? It beats mmochamp in toxicity.

As for the night warrior being an important figure and also male when it completely shatters the lore about important people being women in night elf society, I don’t think the current writers really give a shit. BFA’s quality of rewriting things should be a clear example of that. They never respect or follow what was written before them.

[Sondrelk]

Sorry I was speaking generally after reading the wowhead comments. Is there a reason why wowhead is always a cesspit when it comes to comments? It beats mmochamp in toxicity.

As for the night warrior being an important figure and also male when it completely shatters the lore about important people being women in night elf society, I don’t think the current writers really give a shit. BFA’s quality of rewriting things should be a clear example of that. They never respect or follow what was written before them.

Pretty sure important figures in Nelf society being female only really came after the druids went into hibernation following WotA.

[Hellspawn]

Pretty sure important figures in Nelf society being female only really came after the druids went into hibernation following WotA.

Priests where always female back then, hence the name sisterhood of Elune.

That was changed with world of warcraft:
The Sisters are a major and active night elven political faction, and fulfil the role of magistrates, officials, and others for the night elven government. The highest-ranking of the Sisters are privy to the government's most important secrets, such as the original condition of Malfurion Stormrage and the power struggle that erupted between Tyrande Whisperwind and Fandral Staghelm.

The Sisterhood of Elune is the highest echelon of the priesthood that serves the goddess of the moon, Elune. The Sisterhood has remained exclusively female up until recent times. This is largely because of a common belief that the deepest mysteries of Elune can only be comprehended by women. Although the vast majority of Elune's priesthood is still comprised of night elven women, the order has come to accept Kaldorei males into its ranks as well.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sisterhood_of_Elune

So there were no male priests before the time around when world of warcraft started.
But even with that I think you could argue that this ritual could be done by a male warrior of the night elfs... it seems more likely that the sisterhood acquired the understanding and knowledge about this ritual and since the priestress ware often warriors themselves, they probably tried it themselves.

The sisterhood is the oldest night elf organization.

[Sondrelk]

Priests where always female back then, hence the name sisterhood of Elune.

That was changed with world of warcraft:
The Sisters are a major and active night elven political faction, and fulfil the role of magistrates, officials, and others for the night elven government. The highest-ranking of the Sisters are privy to the government's most important secrets, such as the original condition of Malfurion Stormrage and the power struggle that erupted between Tyrande Whisperwind and Fandral Staghelm.

The Sisterhood of Elune is the highest echelon of the priesthood that serves the goddess of the moon, Elune. The Sisterhood has remained exclusively female up until recent times. This is largely because of a common belief that the deepest mysteries of Elune can only be comprehended by women. Although the vast majority of Elune's priesthood is still comprised of night elven women, the order has come to accept Kaldorei males into its ranks as well.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sisterhood_of_Elune

So there were no male priests before the time around when world of warcraft started.
But even with that I think you could argue that this ritual could be done by a male warrior of the night elfs... it seems more likely that the sisterhood acquired the understanding and knowledge about this ritual and since the priestress ware often warriors themselves, they probably tried it themselves.

The priests is one thing, but other positions generally.
Secondly we don't know if you need to be a priest to become the Night Warrior, just because the one we know was doesn't mean it is a necessity.

[Hellspawn]

Secondly we don't know if you need to be a priest to become the Night Warrior, just because the one we know was doesn't mean it is a necessity.

Thats exactly what I explained...

[Yarathir]

Sorry I was speaking generally after reading the wowhead comments. Is there a reason why wowhead is always a cesspit when it comes to comments? It beats mmochamp in toxicity.

As for the night warrior being an important figure and also male when it completely shatters the lore about important people being women in night elf society, I don’t think the current writers really give a shit. BFA’s quality of rewriting things should be a clear example of that. They never respect or follow what was written before them.

Honestly, I think people in general have just become awful and tribal as shit. You can see it in these threads, too.

[Plehnard]

Sorry I was speaking generally after reading the wowhead comments. Is there a reason why wowhead is always a cesspit when it comes to comments? It beats mmochamp in toxicity.

As for the night warrior being an important figure and also male when it completely shatters the lore about important people being women in night elf society, I don’t think the current writers really give a shit. BFA’s quality of rewriting things should be a clear example of that. They never respect or follow what was written before them.

My guess is that's because MMO-Champ is consists more of lore nerds while the wowhead community is driven by numbers and stats.
Pure maths usually lacks in empathy.

Honestly, I think people in general have just become awful and tribal as shit. You can see it in these threads, too.

Well there's a difference between being tribal for some fictional faction/race and out right homophobia and racism towards the real world.
I can live with not agreeing with Mace or Ravenmoon on night elf lore but insulting and rambling against real people is a whole other thing.
MMOC toxicity is at least harmless.

[Sondrelk]

Thats exactly what I explained...

Yeah, sorry. Just half-mindedly scrolling through the comments here.

[huth]

Well, to be specific, it was the Night Elf rig in ToT, and they added a few unique animations, like the walk, to it back then, but most of them were Night Elf.

In BfA, the player Zandalari use the same animations as the ToT rig, and I think other than that, a few new unique ones. I know the sit is different from the Night Elf one, but it was the same in the files for a long time.

Didn't they explicitly say that Zandalari are based on the Troll rig? Their animations are clearly based on NE, but animations aren't rigging.

[Yarathir]

Didn't they explicitly say that Zandalari are based on the Troll rig? Their animations are clearly based on NE, but animations aren't rigging.

That would be getting too in-depth. The most important part of a rig is that it follows the shape of the body, and that, in some cases, might not even be the case due to animation retargeting.

When people refer to rig, mostly they seem to point towards the animation sets, since that's the biggest defining visual factor for anyone who isn't actually setting up the bones. Fairly sure Zandalari have just their own rig, but it's set up to work with Night Elf male animations.

[formerShandalay]

When I look at the black Bloodelves I really wish we could also get some really dark skintones for the Nightelves. Like a very dark (night) blue and/or an almost black ash tint. I'd love that.

[Yarathir]

Well there's a difference between being tribal for some fictional faction/race and out right homophobia and racism towards the real world.
I can live with not agreeing with Mace or Ravenmoon on night elf lore but insulting and rambling against real people is a whole other thing.
MMOC toxicity is at least harmless.

I think you misinterpreted me. You have at least as many unironic racists and homophobes as you have people going "reeee you can't have a lore complaint/concern, you're just being a stealth racist/homophobe," and going by the ratios, I'm fairly sure the latter group is more numerous- if not that, at least more vocal.

I have no problem with lore disputes.

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When I look at the black Bloodelves I really wish we could also get some really dark skintones for the Nightelves. Like a very dark (night) blue and/or an almost black ash tint. I'd love that.

Did you see the drow skin?

[Plehnard]

That would be getting too in-depth. The most important part of a rig is that it follows the shape of the body, and that, in some cases, might not even be the case due to animation retargeting.

When people refer to rig, mostly they seem to point towards the animation sets, since that's the biggest defining visual factor for anyone who isn't actually setting up the bones. Fairly sure Zandalari have just their own rig, but it's set up to work with Night Elf male animations.

Technically speaking all races have the same rig since the rework, just with different offsets calculated in for the animations.
That's why there are so many race independent animations now.

[Hellspawn]

When I look at the black Bloodelves I really wish we could also get some really dark skintones for the Nightelves. Like a very dark (night) blue and/or an almost black ash tint. I'd love that.

They got that with the new customizations, its just not yet available as choice ingame yet.

[formerShandalay]

I think you misinterpreted me. You have at least as many unironic racists and homophobes as you have people going "reeee you can't have a lore complaint/concern, you're just being a stealth racist/homophobe," and going by the ratios, I'm fairly sure the latter group is more numerous- if not that, at least more vocal.

I have no problem with lore disputes.

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Did you see the drow skin?

For the Nightelves? No, I didn't, is it on Wowhead? I'll check right now!


Edit: oh, cool, I missed that one completely, I only saw the post with the new hair etc. And yea, that's what I was was talking about, nice!

[Yarathir]

For the Nightelves? No, I didn't, is it on Wowhead? I'll check right now!


Edit: oh, cool, I missed that one completely, I only saw the post with the new hair etc. And yea, that's what I was was talking about, nice!

It was one of the earlier datamined things for Night Elves, alongside the body tattoos, which we still haven't seen in action in game proper. I hope the women get them, too.

But yeah, I love that skin. It'll look so spooky with the black hair and Night Warrior eyes.

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Technically speaking all races have the same rig since the rework, just with different offsets calculated in for the animations.
That's why there are so many race independent animations now.

That's.. I dunno about that. That's often said to be the case, but has Blizzard ever indicated that?

Anyway, I'm not somebody who rigs professionally so I don't have a full grasp of it, but when it concerns bodily movements, a dedicated rig is starting to matter less and less. Faces, however, might still be a problem, but I think you can leave them out and then manually animate them.

You know, so as to avoid.. uh.. this.



More dedicated animators would be able to correct me. I mainly stick to modeling.

[Plehnard]

@Yarathir That picture is the perfect example of the Tauren offset on the rig.

[Raetary]

When I look at the black Bloodelves I really wish we could also get some really dark skintones for the Nightelves. Like a very dark (night) blue and/or an almost black ash tint. I'd love that.

You mean, like this?

[Plehnard]

You mean, like this?

He/she probably hasn't seen it because it's not in the dressing room yet. (like the blonde hair colour)