Why is Tyrande still the leader of the Night Elves?

[Jastall]

Doesn't matter who leads the Night Elves so long as the writers want them to be punching bag props. There is literally no point in changing Tyrande out.

Indeed. Tyrande's poor characterization is a symptom over the terrible writing around NEs ever since vanilla WoW, not a cause. They just get shafted over and over, either to show how the Horde is so cool and evil when they beat them, or to show how wise beyond their years and full of potential the humans are when they school them.

They should never have joined the Alliance in the first place, but muh two faction prides ensured that every race has to fit into the red or blue blob, and most of the times that means kowtowing to the edicts, customs and mentalities of humans or orcs.

[Soon-TM]

I made a thread long ago that if Terenas decided to kill the orcs then they wouldn't have been kept busy by them away from the Cult of the Damned and then no taxes which veered many poor people into joining the Cult of the Damned in the first place.

That's a fine theory - but not canon. Canon are e.g. the WC3 examples I provided.

[Dellis0991]

Under her rule, Night Elves got genocided, lost every battle, lost 99% of their homeland, and yet she never questions herself and even had the audacity to put the blame on Elune.


-Between wc3 and vanilla, she decided to abandon her duties as the leader of the Sentinels and a protector of Ashenvale, and instead ordered her people to leave Ahsenvale for some big tree in the sea (was she that much afraid of the Orcs? Is it why she agreed to side with some human kingdom at the other side of Azeroth?).

-She never helps her people who are getting slaughtered in Ashenvale and Azshara ,invaded and murdered by Orcs, Goblins, etc. and instead her husband sides with Tauren over some night elf victims wanting justice.

-If not for Varian and the worgens, her people would have already been completely wiped out before cata.

-Another evidence that she's bad at military tactics is MoP where Varian has to teach her the basics.

-She is not only bad at military, but as diplomacy as well : She abandons Azshara to the Goblins (who completely destroyed the nature there) in exchange for the Horde not attacking Ashenvale, thus not only defending the Horde interests, but also proving that Garrosh was right to attack them.

-During BFA, not only she is directly responsible for her people losing all of their homeland by ordering her army to leave Ashenvale, but she doesn't even kill the Orc responsible for this and the death of hundreads of her sisters and instead is okay with letting her people become hostages of the Horde and abandons the battlefield while her sisters are still getting killed, fighting the Horde.


Why aren't people more angry toward her? Is it because she looks good?

None of the night elves are mad at her. NONE of them has voiced any disdain so far. The only voice of opinion is Shandris. The one's who aren't apart of the current black moon army are too shell shocked to be angry about anything.

[Melusine]

Don't move the goalpost, i'm not blaming the victims, just wondering why such an incompetent leader is still in charge somehow.

Yes you are moving the goal posts. Crystal ball theories are nonsense, but that's what it would have taken in order to see what the future held.

Ashenvale and Azshara were never destroyed by the demons. Only felwood was corrupted and it is said that it would heal in time.

Their home was in Hyjal. That was very much destroyed by demons. The world tree was sundered, and the entire area was left in ruins.

Hamuul is part of the Horde and even convinced Warchief Thrall, despite his misgivings, to forge an alliance of convenience between the Forsaken and the Horde. This is Malfurion's bff btw.

Doesn't mean he was part of the Horde. He is part of the Cenarion Circle, first and foremost. He is a co-leader of that. Regarding the Warchief of a faction that his people are a part of does not mean he was a member of the Horde over the Cenarion Circle. And during the events leading into the Siege of Orgrimmar, he sided agaisnt Garrosh. During the Fourth war, he remained with Magni Bronzebeard. His loyalty is not the the Horde. His loyalties have never been to the Horde. His true loyalties are to Azeroth, the Cenarion Circle and the Tauren, in that order.

Preemptive unprovoked attacks worked pretty well for the Horde.

Of course it does, because despite their claims of "honor", their version of honor is the diametric opposite of true honor. Doesn't mean it's right or that the Horde isn't evil, or a bunch of cowards at their heart.

Yes, i know how peace treaties work, doesn't mean that they are always a good thing.

A man is only as good as his word. Garrosh's word wasn't worth a shit. Why, because warmongers know nothing of honor. Sylvanas, second verse, same as the first. Fuck the Horde. Jaina was right to tell Varian at the conclusion of the Siege of Orgrimmar to end the Horde on that day.

Tyrande not only gained nothing with this treaty,

Not all treraties are about gain. Sometimes the best gain is no further loss. Certain lines were drawn in the sand.

but she proved Garrosh right,

This doesn't make any sense. What exactly did this prove? Saying Garrosh was right, and then leaving it at that says all of nothing.

submitted once again to the Horde,

She didn't "once again" submit to the Horde. That was the first treaty ever put in place between the Night elves and the Orcs.

gave them an entire territory,

It stopped their encroaching into Ashenvale, meaning that, rather than the Night elves needing to reclaim three of Hyjal's periphery territories, they would only need to reclaim 2, and to be honest, the felwood was going to be the more difficult one to undo because Demons > Goblins 100% of the time.

and the icing on the cake is that the Horde genocided them few years later. What a great diplomat, what a great deal maker!

Again.... Crystal ball prophecy level insight to be required here, and the fact of the matter was, the encroaching warchief was not the one who signed the initial treaty, and no one is of the opinion that Sylvanas is a woman who regards honor for anything. Your argument is invalid on that premise alone.

It was not a strategic retreat,

That's your opinion. Apparently, you don't understand the premise of what to do when you are outnumbered, caught offguard and need to get to safety in order to regroup... that is the very definition of a strategic retreat. And, had that strategic retreat went as Tyrande had hoped, and Stormwind had sent the 7th Legion's fleet, There would still be a world tree where Teldrassil is now. The Horde would have been shanked, and the Battle for Azeroth would have went very differently. That not withstanding, the true responsibility falls to Anduin Wrynn for not doing what his father would have done, and off'd those sons of bitches, and put Sylvanas' filthy head on a spike for all to see.

it was just about her alone fleeing away,

Wrong. You know what happens when someone flees like a coward? They don't come back to reap vengeance upon the victors. They don't engage in a ceremony to turn themselves into avatars of vengeance, and don't go after the Horde. In canon, the Alliance win the battle of Darkshore. They also win in the Battle of Arathi. Remember what I said about Strategic retreats? There's my evidence, and you're wrong as usual.

like always, knowing that the situation was again completely lost and abandonned her soliders to die alone because of her terrible decisions.

First of all, she never abandoned them. She was there right up until Saurfang cheap-shotted Malfurion. Had that not happened, Sylvanas would have died then and there, and put a true end to this. Moments later, Teldrassil was lost. That battle was lost, and she went to Anduin Wrynn and demanded he send troops to retake Darkshore. When he refused, she took it upon herself to do it, and say what you want about Genn Greymane, he stood behind Tyrande, meaning he is one of the best the Alliance have in terms of a commander.

The captain goes down with the ship, but when you are a giant coward, these rules don't apply to you.

Wrong as usual. See, she did come back. And unlike that cunt-faced twat Sylvanas, she attacked the Horde head on, and fucked their shit up. Once the odds were evened, the Horde gets the shit kicked out of them, and they flee. Attacking from behind is the move of a coward. Attacking seriously outnumbered forces is an act of a coward. Not being able to fight your own battles, that's the mark of a coward. All those things exemplify the Whorde. Casting aspersions against the side that was taken offguard, outnumbered, and flanked from both sides, and then, once the two commanders were fighting it out, couldn't even beat him without his little cocksucker lapdog cheap-shotting Malfurion, those are the acts of a coward, and a pussy.

All you did is just doubled down on all my posts to tell me I was wrong, and well, I'm not. Soooo....do better, and I'll put my knowledge of battle tactics up against yours any day. I promise, you're out of your depth though.

[Nathasil]

Under her rule, Night Elves got genocided, lost every battle, lost 99% of their homeland, and yet she never questions herself and even had the audacity to put the blame on Elune.


-Between wc3 and vanilla, she decided to abandon her duties as the leader of the Sentinels and a protector of Ashenvale, and instead ordered her people to leave Ahsenvale for some big tree in the sea (was she that much afraid of the Orcs? Is it why she agreed to side with some human kingdom at the other side of Azeroth?).

-She never helps her people who are getting slaughtered in Ashenvale and Azshara ,invaded and murdered by Orcs, Goblins, etc. and instead her husband sides with Tauren over some night elf victims wanting justice.

-If not for Varian and the worgens, her people would have already been completely wiped out before cata.

-Another evidence that she's bad at military tactics is MoP where Varian has to teach her the basics.

-She is not only bad at military, but as diplomacy as well : She abandons Azshara to the Goblins (who completely destroyed the nature there) in exchange for the Horde not attacking Ashenvale, thus not only defending the Horde interests, but also proving that Garrosh was right to attack them.

-During BFA, not only she is directly responsible for her people losing all of their homeland by ordering her army to leave Ashenvale, but she doesn't even kill the Orc responsible for this and the death of hundreads of her sisters and instead is okay with letting her people become hostages of the Horde and abandons the battlefield while her sisters are still getting killed, fighting the Horde.


Why aren't people more angry toward her? Is it because she looks good?

Why are you blaming the character? A character can only be blamed for being the way it is written to be. Look at Tyrande from WC3 - she is NOT an inactive character at all. She is not afraid to oppose anybody and anything if it is what her faith tells her to do.

WoW Tyrande has never been anything like this at all. So why should i blame HER? I blame Blizzard for betraying a WC3 character i loved. The most pitiful development so far has been her BFA storyline, where Blizzard decided to "bring her back" - only to leave her out of the story except for 2 extremely short occurences. Where exacly has Tyrande been in the MONTHS between becoming Night Warrior and the Siege of Orgrimmar II? We don't know. She has definetly not been at Dakshore, since she is not part of either the Scourge or the Night Elf version of the Warfront. She is not in Ashenvale. She is not in Stormwind.

So where was she?

Should i blame the character for not being part of her own storyline, or should i blame Blizzard for not even giving enough of a fuck to tell a story when they PRETEND they are trying to tell a story?

I vote for blaming Blizzard.

Besides, who should replace Tyrande? Shandris? a complete and UTTER disappointment of a character in BFA who is willing to forgive the Horde because Anduin says so and the deaths of thousands of innocents simply do not need to be revenged? Malfurion, who Blizzard tried to get into BFA and failed even harder than with BFA? Malfurion is a GREAT neutral Warden of Azeroth. But as a faction leader he is a miserable excuse of an empty spot. Maiev? Who turned completely insane and commited MURDER in a canon book, which was simply forgotten and forgiven with ONE LINE during Legion, where she was degraded from being an actual great hero to a slightly above average nobody Warden not even invested enough to do ANYTING?

Yeah, the alternatives are not really convincing here. Jerod is OK, i guess. But he was not even important enough to bring him up in BFA at all.

[eurojust]

Yes you are moving the goal posts. Crystal ball theories are nonsense, but that's what it would have taken in order to see what the future held.

Their home was in Hyjal. That was very much destroyed by demons. The world tree was sundered, and the entire area was left in ruins.

Their main home was Ashenvale, the forest that borders Hyjal. In wc3 they don't live on that mountain, there's just the druids sleeping in the barrow deeps.

Doesn't mean he was part of the Horde.

Yea, you right he considerably reinforced the Horde and fueled the faction war but he's totally not part of the Horde. Btw you can be part of a neutral organization and still be part of a faction (see Jaina, Malfurion, etc). Oh and he's a Horde npc.

Of course it does, because despite their claims of "honor", their version of honor is the diametric opposite of true honor. Doesn't mean it's right or that the Horde isn't evil, or a bunch of cowards at their heart.

The point is that Garrosh made his point somehow since the Night Elves after SoO had to make a deal and abandon Azshara to the Horde. They took in consideration the Horde's request because of their attack and the threat

Not all treraties are about gain. Sometimes the best gain is no further loss. Certain lines were drawn in the sand.

For the Horde it was. Further loss happened anyway (see BFA). Simply because of BFA we can objectively say that the treaty signed by Tyrande was a complete fiasco.

This doesn't make any sense. What exactly did this prove? Saying Garrosh was right, and then leaving it at that says all of nothing.

It proved that in order of getting trees he had to attack the night elves and show them who are the strongest.

She didn't "once again" submit to the Horde. That was the first treaty ever put in place between the Night elves and the Orcs.

She let half of Ashenvale getting conquered by the Horde and never bothered to defend Azshara.

It stopped their encroaching into Ashenvale, meaning that, rather than the Night elves needing to reclaim three of Hyjal's periphery territories, they would only need to reclaim 2, and to be honest, the felwood was going to be the more difficult one to undo because Demons > Goblins 100% of the time.

Not only it didn't (see bfa prepatch stories), but it's just admitting that you are weak and that your enemy is right in invading your homeland when you make concessions like this.
Not sure about demon > goblin btw. At least night elves won on numerous occasions against demons. Can't say the same about the Horde, especially goblins. Illidan had defeated the majority of the demons in felwood also. Too bad they banned him for that(another great decision made by the duo).

Again.... Crystal ball prophecy level insight to be required here, and the fact of the matter was, the encroaching warchief was not the one who signed the initial treaty, and no one is of the opinion that Sylvanas is a woman who regards honor for anything. Your argument is invalid on that premise alone.

Horde conquering and slaughtering everything isn't Crystal ball prophecy at all. Even Tyrande said something like "i can't wait for the Horde to run out of trees, i'm so smart to give them Azshara".

[Melusine]

Their main home was Ashenvale, the forest that borders Hyjal. In wc3 they don't live on that mountain, there's just the druids sleeping in the barrow deeps.

Yes they did. Much of their civilization was based in Hyjal, the way a capital city functions here on Earth. While true, not everyone lived there, that doesn't matter. It was the best guarded and most secreted place of Night elf society because of Nordrassil. They lived in the surrounding peripheral territories around Hyjal, including Moonglade. The biggest reason to do that was for the sake of securing the tree and keeping it from being discovered and destroyed.

Yea, you right he considerably reinforced the Horde and fueled the faction war but he's totally not part of the Horde. Btw you can be part of a neutral organization and still be part of a faction (see Jaina, Malfurion, etc). Oh and he's a Horde npc.

By dint of the fact that he is a tauren, and the tauren of Thunder Bluff have aligned themselves with the Horde. That's where it ends. If the Horde decided to run roughshod over Nordrassil, Hamuul and the rest of the tauren druids would turn on them. Just like that... And of course, I need not mention this too much. In Legion, Malfurion aided you through the Emerald Nightmare. He didn't aid the Alliance and attack the Horde or refuse to help them. Sylvanas made an enemy of him. Meanwhile, Hamuul is de facto, neutral, standing alongside Magni Bronzebeard, because he is not a firm attachment to the Horde.

The point is that Garrosh made his point somehow since the Night Elves after SoO had to make a deal and abandon Azshara to the Horde. They took in consideration the Horde's request because of their attack and the threat

That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard on this subject. Azshara was abandoned to the Horde as Garrosh was assuming power. AFTER the Siege of Orgrimmar, Garrosh had nothing whatsoever to do with anything involving the Night elves. He was deposed as the Warchief. And seriously, after the Goblins shit all over Azshara, why would the night elves want it back? And that being said, you think the horde would have just kept moving on in, but, if they did that, the Alliance led by Varian Wrynn, who was approaching through the Barrens from the south would have divided the Tauren from the Horde, and went after Thunder Bluff. It was convenient timing that the Night elves wanted the horde to stay out of Ashenvale. Let the Horde deal with the Naga that encroached the lands of Azshara. But ultimately, The Horde would have screwed the pooch if they didn't withdraw from Ashenvale and head south the the Barrens.

For the Horde it was. Further loss happened anyway (see BFA). Simply because of BFA we can objectively say that the treaty signed by Tyrande was a complete fiasco.

Why? Vol'jin wasn't reinforcing the push. He seemed more interested in trying to establish peace, or at the very least, non-hostility between the Alliance and his Horde. The true fiasco came when Sylvanas was named Warchief, and that had nothing whatsoever to do with Tyrande. And as I said, Sylvanas launched a Blitzkrieg against an unsuspecting populace in a time of peace. All of the events of BFA would have required someone to tip Tyrande off well in advance that the Horde was coming, and that didn't happen. Tyrande might be a priestess of Elune, but that doesn't give her the ability to see the future, and know things of that nature well in advance of when they are going to happen. So, you're wrong again.

It proved that in order of getting trees he had to attack the night elves and show them who are the strongest.

No, this is a crock of shit right here. I know you play the same game I do. What land is directly north of Orgrimmar? So, if you were the Warchief of the Horde, would you be ok with Night elven operations occuring just north of your capital city? Would you be ok with the enemy being that close in proximity to your lands, and not want ot put a little space between them and you? There is your reason for why the Horde invaded Azshara.

She let half of Ashenvale getting conquered by the Horde and never bothered to defend Azshara.

I'm not reiterating what I just said. The night elves v. the entire Horde means the night elves are at a numeric disadvantage. That's just the way it is.

Not only it didn't (see bfa prepatch stories),

The BFA pre-patch stories are irrelevant to the point. Attacking non-hostile people is an act of aggression, and that's all there is to say about it.

but it's just admitting that you are weak and that your enemy is right in invading your homeland when you make concessions like this.

Interesting take on things. So, I suppose you're also one of those same people who would suggest that Hitler did nothing wrong to the Jews, because they were weak. If that's your take, this discussion is over, and you've lost. There is the third possibility here. Acting like the Night elves just ran with their tails between their legs belies the fact that, as even your good for jack shit Warchief Sylvanas had said to Arthas, before she was turned into the thing she is now, "You think we're running? Apparently, you've never fought elves before..." And to be sure, the Scourge that was invading Quel'thalas outnumbered those elves significantly more than the Horde outnumbered the Night elves, and it still goes down in Azeroth history as a fight that was not just in the bag from the start. You underestimate the elves, probably because you're either a horde fanboy or you just hate Tyrande, or both, I suppose, could also be true, and that's why you're wrong about this entire conversation. It all comes down to lack of objectivity.

Not sure about demon > goblin btw.

I am. Seems to me, there was an entire expansion concerning fighting of the Legion, who are demons. What's never happened, and will never happen, is an expansion that has us killing the Goblin Cartels, because all of them combined aren't shit compared to the Legion.

At least night elves won on numerous occasions against demons.

And in the end, they won against the Horde and retook Darkshore.

Can't say the same about the Horde, especially goblins.

Spoiler alert: Canonically, the Alliance WON the Battle of Darkshore. So, you're wrong on that point, also.

Illidan had defeated the majority of the demons in felwood also.

I would hope so. He wouldn't be a very effective Demon Hunter if he just got his ass kicked by every demon in the Felwood, now would he?

Too bad they banned him for that(another great decision made by the duo).

When fighting monsters, one must be careful not to stare too deeply into the Abyss, for the Abyss will stare back into you. And Illidan became one of the Night elves' most feared ancient enemies, and you think Malfurion and Tyrande were in the wrong for banishing him from the night elves? At the very least, that is consistent to what the night elves believe. While I have no problem stating I am on Illidan's side on this, and have a lot of sympathy for his sacrifices to save his people, and the lack of gratitude he receives in doing so, I knew the moment I was playing WC3 that he used the Skull of Gul'dan and what it did to him that Tyrande and Malfurion were going to do what they did, and I was right.

Horde conquering and slaughtering everything isn't Crystal ball prophecy at all.

Yes it is, and you're lying. Do you remember in history Paul Revere's ride, where he was warning the colonists all the way to Concord that the Red Coats were coming? You probably don't, so I'll give you the Cliff notes. Paul Revere's midnight ride, was to race from Boston to Concord to warn Patriots Samuel Adams and John Hancock that 700 British Redcoats were marching to Concord to arrest them. Had Paul Revere not done this, or failed to get to Concord in time, Samuel Adams and John Hancock would have been arrested. Why is that relevant? Because Tyrande didn't have the luxury of some Alliance version of Paul Revere riding to Astranaar to warn the Night elves that the Horde was on its way to wage war on them.

Even Tyrande said something like "i can't wait for the Horde to run out of trees, i'm so smart to give them Azshara".

Citation needed. This seems very much out of character for her.

You're really doing nothing more than just doubling down on stupid, here. Stop that.

[ravenmoon]

Yes they did. Much of their civilization was based in Hyjal, the way a capital city functions here on Earth. While true, not everyone lived there, that doesn't matter. It was the best guarded and most secreted place of Night elf society because of Nordrassil. They lived in the surrounding peripheral territories around Hyjal, including Moonglade. The biggest reason to do that was for the sake of securing the tree and keeping it from being discovered and destroyed.

Slight correction. It was the Well of eternity that was being protected and hidden, not the tree. You can see the tree from most places in Kalimdor, there is no hiding that.

The tree is hiding the well, magically mainly, although physically it makes the lake less obvious too.

I know it's easy to ignore anything arcane regarding the night elves, because it doesnt fit the common fan view of them, but lore is showing this clearly even if it is easy to ignore because you seldom actually saw the Well until the end of Wc3. The Long Vigil was entirely about preventing the Legion returning and doing so by hiding their arcane well and preventing magical use of it for spells which gives off energy pulses visible in the twisting nether alerting and drawi g the Legion to it. It is the reason practice of the arcane is banned, but it is the centre of their entire effort for 10k years.

Yet even though practicing the arcane in elven magecraft is banned so the demons cant find Azeroth or know the Well (the night elves believe they are after the Well and the reason for their invasion as well as the only means the night elves think can bring them here) the night elves still find clever useful ways to make use of this powerful magical source without utilising arcane spell work.

They create Moonwells all over the protected zone and use it to enhance life as arcane magical energy boosts longevity, vitality, stature and intelligence of life forms, enhancing both flora and fauna which can be maximised through harmony and Elunite blessing.

They are close to and surrounded by the arcane throughout that entire period and it plays the central focus of that group despite not being utilised for spells.

When you think about it, you see whether pre sundering or long vigil, arcane, Elune and nature have been hand in hand with the night elves from day one in ALL their groups. Nightborne may have had it least, but the elven trinity is strongest in the core night elf group.

Soz, I know that is a nitpick, but it's an important one

[Melusine]

Slight correction. It was the Well of eternity that was being protected and hidden, not the tree. You can see the tree from most places in Kalimdor, there is no hiding that.

The tree is hiding the well, magically mainly, although physically it makes the lake less obvious too.

I know it's easy to ignore anything arcane regarding the night elves, because it doesnt fit the common fan view of them, but lore is showing this clearly even if it is easy to ignore because you seldom actually saw the Well until the end of Wc3. The Long Vigil was entirely about preventing the Legion returning and doing so by hiding their arcane well and preventing magical use of it for spells which gives off energy pulses visible in the twisting nether alerting and drawi g the Legion to it. It is the reason practice of the arcane is banned, but it is the centre of their entire effort for 10k years.

Yet even though practicing the arcane in elven magecraft is banned so the demons cant find Azeroth or know the Well (the night elves believe they are after the Well and the reason for their invasion as well as the only means the night elves think can bring them here) the night elves still find clever useful ways to make use of this powerful magical source without utilising arcane spell work.

They create Moonwells all over the protected zone and use it to enhance life as arcane magical energy boosts longevity, vitality, stature and intelligence of life forms, enhancing both flora and fauna which can be maximised through harmony and Elunite blessing.

They are close to and surrounded by the arcane throughout that entire period and it plays the central focus of that group despite not being utilised for spells.

When you think about it, you see whether pre sundering or long vigil, arcane, Elune and nature have been hand in hand with the night elves from day one in ALL their groups. Nightborne may have had it least, but the elven trinity is strongest in the core night elf group.

Soz, I know that is a nitpick, but it's an important one

I mean, it's a fair point. I always made the general assumption that one is the same as the other, but it is true, the lake under the world tree is the real target. The tree, itself, however, was the key to the night elves biological immortality. It was the target on Archimonde during the Battle of Hyjal. To say it has no significance, I don't think you've made that argument, but it definitely was the peak of Mt. Hyjal that was the most guarded by the night elves.

[ravenmoon]

I mean, it's a fair point. I always made the general assumption that one is the same as the other, but it is true, the lake under the world tree is the real target. The tree, itself, however, was the key to the night elves biological immortality. It was the target on Archimonde during the Battle of Hyjal. To say it has no significance, I don't think you've made that argument, but it definitely was the peak of Mt. Hyjal that was the most guarded by the night elves.

Ah, but I didnt say it had no significance, it was very important, but the Well was the primary concern. The tree proved a benefit to the world nourishing it from the energies it tapped, and allowing the druids to join the green light in it's important work.

But the tree is only valuable and possible because of the Well. It it is the Well the night elves are genetically and biologically linked to by their very essence. The tree conveyed extra benefits because of the blessings. Without the blessings, the night elves just lose those blessings' benefit.

Currently, the night elves still dont use the Well's magic to rebuild their civilization or cast spells. The main reasons they didnt during the Long vigil no longer apply, I would imagine they are free to employ it and are likely the only ones who can since Nordrassil buffers its ebb and flow and they are the only race directly connected to it. I theorise that while Nordrassil stands, only the night elves can naturally access the Well because of their connection, it's not free for all like in the pre-sundering era, everyone else would have to do what Archimonde tried to do, I.e. get rid of the tree. That's my theory anyway.

[eurojust]

Yes they did. Much of their civilization was based in Hyjal, the way a capital city functions here on Earth.

Hyjal was never a capital city. Yes it was the most sacred place of the nelves, but if you had played wc3 or read the manual it's heavily implied that most of them lived around Hyjal. The thing about living in a world tree started with WoW.

By dint of the fact that he is a tauren, and the tauren of Thunder Bluff have aligned themselves with the Horde. That's where it ends.

No, it doesn't end here, as i said he played a key role in the Horde becoming more powerful and more aggressive by accepting the Forsaken.

Azshara was abandoned to the Horde as Garrosh was assuming power.

Where did i say the contrary?

Why? Vol'jin wasn't reinforcing the push. He seemed more interested in trying to establish peace, or at the very least, non-hostility between the Alliance and his Horde. The true fiasco came when Sylvanas was named Warchief.

You missed the part where the Horde supported her?

No, this is a crock of shit right here. I know you play the same game I do. What land is directly north of Orgrimmar? So, if you were the Warchief of the Horde, would you be ok with Night elven operations occuring just north of your capital city? Would you be ok with the enemy being that close in proximity to your lands, and not want ot put a little space between them and you? There is your reason for why the Horde invaded Azshara.

Take it down a notch, or i'm done with you. The way you are constantly insulting shows how much you are in the wrong and have no argument. Why are you even talking about geography here? Why are you constantly moving the goalpost? You are legitimizing a Horde invasion on Elven territory now? No wonder why you love Tyrande so much. You love the way she submits.

I'm not reiterating what I just said. The night elves v. the entire Horde means the night elves are at a numeric disadvantage. That's just the way it is.

Night elves were their own faction. You know nothing about power lvl, and Tyrande never showed up to defend Azshara except once. With such weakness and submission why would the Horde stop their aggression???

The BFA pre-patch stories are irrelevant to the point.

So you decide now what part of the lore suits you? The BFA stories are completely relevant here as it shows that the Horde never left Ashenvale despite the treaty Tyrande signed.

Interesting take on things. So, I suppose you're also one of those same people who would suggest that Hitler did nothing wrong to the Jews

Godwin's law. You really have no argument except insults, and making comparison with Hitler? Tyrande barely fought for her people despite the constant Horde invasions. She's responsible for them getting confident. If she can't defend her territory, then let someone else do the job.

I am.

And i'm not, some remnant of demons who got defeated long ago vs the Horde (most powerful organization on Azeroth) and you really think those few demons are a threat? Guess who ended up genociding the night elves btw.

And in the end, they won against the Horde and retook Darkshore.

No the Horde won. They exterminated the Night elves, getting rid of them for good. The fact that they won an irrelevant battle (hence why they used undead night elves to defend it) to win a blighted sh*thole where only undeads could live won't change that. The Horde got the rest of Kalimdor now.

I would hope so. He wouldn't be a very effective Demon Hunter if he just got his ass kicked by every demon in the Felwood, now would he?

My point is that felwood isn't a threat like you claim it is. Play wc3, he defeated the big demon here and says that the job is done.

When fighting monsters, one must be careful not to stare too deeply into the Abyss, for the Abyss will stare back into you. And Illidan became one of the Night elves' most feared ancient enemies, and you think Malfurion and Tyrande were in the wrong for banishing him from the night elves?

Yes? He just inflicted a huge defeat to the Legion why would you ban him in a middle of a Legion invasion where Azeroth is on the verge of getting destroyed, especially knowing that he could side with the Legion? That's the most stupid decision ever made.

Yes it is, and you're lying.

No it isn't and drop the irl analogies for the last time. Horde was created to conquer and genocide. The ONLY moment they stopped doing this was with Thrall's Horde (let's not mention grom).

Citation needed. This seems very much out of character for her.

"Varian and I spoke at length about the price of peace before his decision here today. I am willing to allow the Horde the use of Azshara's lumber if they abandon Ashenvale for good. Knowing the way that goblins chew through resources, we will see how long that will sustain them."
She literally expects Horde to run out of resources, therefore she knows that the treaty she just signed was bullshit.

[Vaedan]

Hyjal was never a capital city. Yes it was the most sacred place of the nelves, but if you had played wc3 or read the manual it's heavily implied that most of them lived around Hyjal. The thing about living in a world tree started with WoW.

That is actually correct. They still had considerable presence at the Hyjal Summit, but I believe it was mainly for the defense of the tree and some druidic structures. Actual capital of the race was Nighthaven in Moonglade.

No, it doesn't end here, as i said he played a key role in the Horde becoming more powerful and more aggressive by accepting the Forsaken.

Yes, he played part in Forsaken joining the Horde. It is also likely the last thing he did only for the Horde. All his future involvements are to Cenarion Circle. You know, you can also say that Malfurion made Alliance stronger because he and his druids helped worgen to join the Alliance, but it does not make Malfurion alliance only. The fact that Hamuul stop contributed to the Horde since classic wow does not make him really important figure amongs Horde. Right now, he is important neutral character of Horde origin and ties to the Horde.

Where did i say the contrary?

Well, you actually didn't, but you are messing up with this quite a lot. Let's make a clear timeline of these events:
- WoW Classic to WoW cata: Azshara is mostly barren unpopulated place. There is minor elven settlement, there is minor orcish settlement, but both factions lack any significant stronghold in the area. Most inhabitants of Azshara are naga, murlocs, fulborg, satyr and highborne ghosts and wildlife. Aside from history and the fact that region is full of ancient elven ruins, elves does not seem to value the region much.
- WoW cata: Horde began their invasion of the land. It is logical, because Azshara is at the doorstep of their capital. The region can provide them with lumber and hunting game, which is both very valuable resources for the Horde at the time. It is also way more attractive target, since kaldorei presence here is way lesser than in other parts of Kalimdor. Alliance presence is now way greater than it was in years past (it is mostly made up by Highborne spellcasters who only recently rejoined the elves and thus they are the group who is somewhat interested in the region, given their history) and elves fought to defend the land. Since Tyrande is the commander of Sentinels, it is clear that she cares about Azshara at the time of attack and is willing to defend it. You are wrong to claim that she abandons it while it could be still considered her territory. Elves are defeated, since they face combined might of the Horde, mostly orcs and goblin, and they defend it without any other reinforcements from Alliance. It is also safe to speculate that they decided to bolster their defenses in Ashenvale, which has far more importance for them than Azshara ever would have. That is in fact tactical decision, to pull back your forces to contribute to more important battles.
- WoW MoP: at the end of the expansion, Garrosh is defeated and we see peace talks. Now, if we stick that each expansion is worth 2 years of time on Azeroth, Azshara has been in Horde hands for 4 years now (from the beginning to cata to end of MoP). Even before that time, there almost no elves living there. On the Alliance, there are likely very elves who could call Azshara their home, since many of such elves were killed by the Horde during their invasion of the land. You can't say Tyrande abandoned the land which does not belong to her at the time.

You missed the part where the Horde supported her?

Well, it also showed us that Horde is in fact group of easily manipulated individuals who easily forgets that the other faction does not want to kill them, but is willing to work with them instead. Sure, Alliance is not innocent, but in the larger scope, it is Alliance who is constantly willing to move on past their hatred in the name of greater good, while Horde is constantly breaking peace treaties and armistices because they are too paranoid and are in fear that Alliance will crush them. That usually leads to the conlusion, that in the end, Horde is crushed, because they are not unitied enough to finish the job they started. In the end, Horde is not really strong. They are only successful when they are fighting greater threat alongside the Alliance, or when they are doing suprise attacks on unsuspecting and outnumbered targets, or when tehy are deploying tactics condemned even by them (e.g using a blight). Nothing really spectacular.

Why are you even talking about geography here? Why are you constantly moving the goalpost? You are legitimizing a Horde invasion on Elven territory now?

Well, geography is pretty crucial here to understand the whole conflict.
- Horde (Thrall) made a pretty big mistake in chosing the place for their new Capital. To build a city in barren wasteland with almost no resources, which is bordering a territory of another ancient race is pretty stupid and it started most of the problems Horde had.
- Since Horde was in shortage of supplies, they had two options: to die or to get some. Well, Horde had access to shamans and druids, so they could easily utilize their powers to make their environment more rewarding, but they choose to invade ancestral home of people who let them settle as their neighbours.
- From the Horde perspective, the invasion of Azshara and Ashenvale was needed to sustain them. It was narrative which Garroshed pushed and it was what made him popular amongs orcs. Regrowing barrens would not earn him credit amongs orcs who can't stay idle without killing something every month.
- From Horde perspective, it was also logical to secure lands bordering with their territory. That's why they invade the elves. They succeed in Azshara, where the elven presence was not really numerous. They failed to conquer Ashenvale. They had some wins in aftermath of Cataclysm, while elves were occupied with natural disasters in Darkshore (huge huricane which was about to tear the land apart) Ashenvale (erupting volcano) and Hyjal (emergance of Ragnaros, threatening to burn the World Tree). So instead of taking care of the damage caused by Cataclysm, Horde choose to attack elves who are actually dealing with world ending threats. They choose to corrupt the Heart of Forest, basicly tainting the land with dark magic. In the end, elves managed to cleanse the Heart of Forest and retake most of Ashenvale and drive the Horde back and continue their offensive in Stonetalon Mountains.

Night elves were their own faction. You know nothing about power lvl, and Tyrande never showed up to defend Azshara except once. With such weakness and submission why would the Horde stop their aggression???

That is your interpretation. You can also say that Tyrande choose to defend Azshara when it was relevant, and chose to leave it when it lost it's worth after several years of goblin abuse.

Godwin's law. You really have no argument except insults, and making comparison with Hitler? Tyrande barely fought for her people despite the constant Horde invasions. She's responsible for them getting confident. If she can't defend her territory, then let someone else do the job.?

Wrong. Tyrande is the leader of Sentinels and Sisterhood of Elune. You can always see Sentinels defending elven lands and even priestesses are present most of time, if not on the battlefield, they are tending to the survivors. Tyrande can't be present herself in every battle, and it would be stupid for her to do so, since she would expose herself and let herself killed. Also, we have seen no other faction leader to be present in most battles personally. The only one who is actually doing something close to it is Jaina in BfA.

No the Horde won. They exterminated the Night elves, getting rid of them for good. The fact that they won an irrelevant battle (hence why they used undead night elves to defend it) to win a blighted sh*thole where only undeads could live won't change that. The Horde got the rest of Kalimdor now.

Wrong. Horde lost Darkshore following Warfront. It was not entirely blighted, Forsaken were in process of blighting it, which night elves interrupted and regrew the shore, so right now, it is not blighted land to begin with. It is confirmed in canon. What is not confirmed however is the other territorial gains of the Horde. We can speculate if the Ashenvale is in the hands of Horde or not, it is not confirmed who owns the land. Clearly Horde is not owning Moonglade, Felwood, Winterspring or Hyjal either, so stop claiming that Horde runs all of Kalimdor. They certainly don't.

Horde was created to conquer and genocide. The ONLY moment they stopped doing this was with Thrall's Horde (let's not mention grom).

It is also reason why Horde only wins few battles, but never the whole war. They lack vision. Thrall had some, and as soon as he left, Horde lost it's purpose and returned to their dark roots. That means they are inevitably destined to loose. The gameplay reasons are the most obvious here - you can't erase Alliance faction from the game, so the conqueror narrative for the Horde is always going to fail.

"Varian and I spoke at length about the price of peace before his decision here today. I am willing to allow the Horde the use of Azshara's lumber if they abandon Ashenvale for good. Knowing the way that goblins chew through resources, we will see how long that will sustain them."
She literally expects Horde to run out of resources, therefore she knows that the treaty she just signed was bullshit.

She literally admits that Azshara is no longer viable source of resources and will soon be depleted. Now, should you care about such territory, especially while it is not that important for your race anyway? Or should you care more about lush forests of Ashenvale, who are center of your culture, has been home to your race for millenia and it is till region rich on resources? What Tyrande did here can be considered pretty nasty diplomatic move against the Horde, since they officially gives them territory. That alone denies further opposition from the Horde side that negotiations are unfair for them, but the land is not that valuable. She also got Horde removed from Ashenvale, which is again hinted in BfA novellas. There is a line implying Horde is entering forest again after few years. Also, Silverwind Refuge (which was overrun by Horde in cata) is shown to be in elven hands at the beginning of novellas, so it also indicates that Horde was not present in the region actually.

If the Horde would uphold the honor they are always talking about, this treaty would be clear win for night elves and Tyrande would rid the Ashenvale of orcs for good. It turned out that Horde is not about to uphold any promise they make and their words are basicly meaningless. That does not prove Tyrande inccompetent, it proves Horde to not to be trusted anymore.

[AsgardBY99]

Because it was Blizzard who wrote it that way, because they wanted to highlight Varian.

[Shampro]

Bring back Fandral.

[Aresk]

Lordaeronians were slaughtered (or genocided, if you want, but the term is even more improper here than in Teldrassil, w/e) by the Scourge, not by the Orcs, who at the time were busy escaping the internment camps and following Thrall to Kalimdor. As a matter of fact, Orcs had nothing to do with the scourging of Lordaeron.

Humans were massacred by the Orcs in the First War, when Stormwind was conquered and razed down though.

You're forgetting about the Blackrock clan, which was based around Alterac at the time and raiding villages to perform sacrifices to maintain an active demon gateway, which later is used to learn how to summon Archimonde and the Legion, leading to the massacre of Lordaeron (admittedly, after the Scourge had already significantly softened them up). The Horde isn't the only source of orcs in the game. I wouldn't put the orcs as a major culprit of the fall of Lordaeron, but they were a contributing factor.

I still think Terenas was right in not killing all the imprisoned orcs.

[Talrath]

She's the collateral damage of writers' decision of a) villain-batting the Horde. Since a proper villain must be a believable threat, someone had to get their ass spanked, and b) propping up dat human potential, meaning that when the Sue du jour in the Alliance !@#$s it up, she can't take proper decisions without risking being ridiculed, or even villain-batted herself.

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Shandris ofc, they've been screaming it from the roofs since the end of the Ally war campaign.

Shandris is a newb compared to Jarod shadowsong

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And also yeah, seems like because blizzard doesnt know what they want to do with characters in the long run. So they hype 3 characters and leave the rest alone, because its also a matter of time and expertise. It looks as if the writers who have experience like chrystie golden or others, who are supposed to assist the lore devs (affrisiabi and steve) , are just tired in telling the devs that something doesnt work. And right now they just do whatever the devs tell them to do and knod yes all the time.

With time i think that they just have to spend some resources for retarded content, just look at broken shore, argus, mechagon, nazjatar. mechagon shouldnt even be in the lore but meh. As for the rest, each one of them HAD to be an expansion, instead the upper management must have decided something else and wanted quick bucks. Why i think that blizz is assuming that they make perfect lore is because you dont hear a senior writer leave, except for Chris Metzen but that was because he got panick attacks.
Other than him no big lore guy left when the lore started to become horrendious, basically after lich king.

So yeah, incompetent in blizz will make any race other than orc/human be useless and so it doesnt matter who becomes the leader.

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Edit: also this happend.

“Going back to the Cataclysm expansion, at the end of the first raid tier, the final boss was the black dragon Sinestra. We wanted a red dragon to come and join players in the fight and ultimately sacrifice himself in order to enable their victory.

“There was a well known red dragon named Krasus, who was the male companion of Alexstrasza, leader of the red dragons, and he would have had a real bone to pick with Sinestra. It would have made a lot of sense for him to be there. He was an important figure that people would definitely recognise, and his sacrifice would have been meaningful.
“We were going down that road but realised he actually died in a book! So we had to invent a new red dragon.”

How in the world didnt they know that Krasus already died, it happend just now!

[Ardenaso]

I still think Terenas was right in not killing all the imprisoned orcs.

Terenas not killing the orcs is pretty much the reason why the Cult of the Damned existed

[LemonDemonGirl]

Blizzard is trying and failing at female empowerment and not realizing everyone is looking at these women like theyre psychopaths.

Some of the female characters they've been trying to write seem boring as well. Jaina and Talanji for example

Or, it's just Blizzard's writing

[Aresk]

Terenas not killing the orcs is pretty much the reason why the Cult of the Damned existed

I disagree with that assessment. The orcs were placed in internment camps after the conclusion of WC2, while the events of WC2 saw Ner'zhul opening the portals that led to his capture; thus, killing the orcs would not have prevented him from being in Kil'jaeden's custody. Kel'thuzad was studying necromancy after witnessing the death knights used on the raid of Dalaran, so his interest in necromancy would not have been prevented from killing the orcs. The orcs' being dead or alive would not have changed their failure in the second war, so Kil'jaeden still would've had reason to create the Lich King. It would have stopped the Blackrock Clan from harassing villages around what was once Alterac, but that wasn't a requirement for the Cult of the Damned to be formed; at best, it would've given Arthas a chance to jump on the investigation a few days earlier. However, given that Ner'zhul had foresaw all the events of WC3 (from Arthas' corruption to Archimonde's eventual downfall), it's perfectly reasonable that removing the orcs would've simply caused him to adjust his timetables a bit; the cult operated how it did because they needed Arthas to be the one investigating, since he was the chosen champion of the Lich King.

Without the Blackrock Orcs' demon portal, Kel'thuzad would have needed an alternate means of contacting Archimonde, but that was well after the formation of the Cult of the Damned, so again that doesn't really have an impact on the cult's existence.

[Ardenaso]

I disagree with that assessment. The orcs were placed in internment camps after the conclusion of WC2, while the events of WC2 saw Ner'zhul opening the portals that led to his capture; thus, killing the orcs would not have prevented him from being in Kil'jaeden's custody. Kel'thuzad was studying necromancy after witnessing the death knights used on the raid of Dalaran, so his interest in necromancy would not have been prevented from killing the orcs. The orcs' being dead or alive would not have changed their failure in the second war, so Kil'jaeden still would've had reason to create the Lich King. It would have stopped the Blackrock Clan from harassing villages around what was once Alterac, but that wasn't a requirement for the Cult of the Damned to be formed; at best, it would've given Arthas a chance to jump on the investigation a few days earlier. However, given that Ner'zhul had foresaw all the events of WC3 (from Arthas' corruption to Archimonde's eventual downfall), it's perfectly reasonable that removing the orcs would've simply caused him to adjust his timetables a bit; the cult operated how it did because they needed Arthas to be the one investigating, since he was the chosen champion of the Lich King.

Without the Blackrock Orcs' demon portal, Kel'thuzad would have needed an alternate means of contacting Archimonde, but that was well after the formation of the Cult of the Damned, so again that doesn't really have an impact on the cult's existence.

well yeah, Arthas getting straight to the Cult that is pretty small and insignificant means that the Cult would've been defunct

if Terenas never imposed taxes just for keeping the orcs alive, the Barov family would'nt pledge to the Cult of the Damned and the farmers wouldn't have any reason to abandon their farmsteads and homes to join

just imagine the orcs dead -> no base of operations and very little to no extra members means the Cult is pretty insignificant and if they did cause some problems at least Gilneas and Stromgarde would help against them (they left because, again, taxes on orcs)