Tearing down historical statues the European edition

[Kraenen]

Anyone else not believe in statues to begin with, but still find the expression of anti-western violence to be a problem?

[JohnBrown1917]

Anyone else not believe in statues to begin with, but still find the expression of anti-western violence to be a problem?

Most people don't relate to the statues getting taken down.

[Felya]

Because statues are the only way we can remember history, right?

We have people who are misinterpreting the name of a continent. But, are claiming that statues would serve as a history lesson. If naming the country America, doesn’t teach you why or who Americo was, but give you an impression of glory. What are statues going to do, if not mislead people, by glorifying slavers?

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Anyone else not believe in statues to begin with, but still find the expression of anti-western violence to be a problem?

Anti west? What the fuck?

[PC2]

Anti west? What the fuck?

What other 1-2 words would you say more accurately represents the situation and motivations?

[Felya]

What other 1-2 words would you say more accurately represents the situation and motivations?

Anti slavers... wtf? The confederates lost... they were never part of the west..

[Elegiac]

What other 1-2 words would you say more accurately represents the situation and motivations?

Anti-nationalist.

[Felya]

Anti-nationalist.

Wait... are we calling the west slavers and nationalist, or the people trying to defend these men as representation of the west?

[PC2]

Anti slavers... wtf? The confederates lost... they were never part of the west..

Okay so in order to test your claim all we need to do is see whether the vandals try to destroy the statues of any non-slavers. If any do get destroyed then that will show that slavery isn't the true criteria for who and what they're targeting. I'm quite sure you will be proven wrong.

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Anti-nationalist.

Yeah that's broader than anti-slavery and I'd say you're more accurate than Felya.

[Themius]

Anyone else not believe in statues to begin with, but still find the expression of anti-western violence to be a problem?

Do you view people who want these statues down as "anti-west"

You realise those people are themselves westerners right? Or is this a Freudian slip and you are racist, and do not view those who are minorities who want these down as inherently "western" because they're not white?

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Okay so in order to test your claim all we need to do is see whether the vandals try to destroy the statues of any non-slavers. If any do get destroyed then that will show that slavery isn't the true criteria for who and what they're targeting. I'm quite sure you will be proven wrong.

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Yeah that's broader than anti-slavery and I'd say you're more accurate than Felya.

Not anti-natanlist in the case of America as the nation they were existed for a short time before being destroyed when they were defeated.

There is no confederate states to be a nationalist of. Their main aim though was to continue slavery. So anti-slaver is more correct. And if you have an issue with "anti-slaver" take it up with the confederate states declarations of war, and the leaders of the confederacy, and the actions taken as America expanded. There were literally plans to take over South America so they could have more slave states and more votes to ensure slavery never ended and become a slave empire.

[PC2]

So anti-slaver is more correct.

Except I'm in not very interested in "more correct" I'm interested in finding the central *regularity* that is true across the entire movement to tear down statues. Anti-slavery simply isn't a very good candidate for that regularity.

[Themius]

Except I'm in not very interested in "more correct" I'm interested in the finding the central *regularity* that is true across the entire movement to tear down statues. Anti-slavery simply isn't a very good candidate for that regularity.

anti-racists, anti-slavery, anti-traitor, anti-celebrating people who wanted to enslave people, anti-statues erected by racist groups responsible for killing black people, anti-statues erected by racist groups to celebrate people who wanted to own slaves"

Take your pick, generally it revolves around racist people wanting to defend statues of people who wanted to own slaves.

Those people are descendants of poor white southerns who have little true heritage, so they latch on to the confederacy, some weird idealistic view of it.

As far as the rest of the nation and people against these statues, the issues revolve around race and slavery

[PC2]

anti-racists, anti-slavery, anti-traitor, anti-celebrating people who wanted to enslave people, anti-statues erected by racist groups responsible for killing black people, anti-statues erected by racist groups to celebrate people who wanted to own slaves"

Take your pick, generally it revolves around racist people wanting to defend statues of people who wanted to own slaves.

Those people are descendants of poor white southerns who have little true heritage, so they latch on to the confederacy, some weird idealistic view of it.

As far as the rest of the nation and people against these statues, the issues revolve around race and slavery

Okay but I'm saying out of those 7 different movements you mentioned which regularity is the one that best accounts for all of them, as it relates to recent events.

[Themius]

Okay but I'm saying out of those 7 different movements which regularity is the one that best accounts for all of them, as it relates to recent events.

It does not matter.

Anti-racist is probably the most obvious.

I mean just look what happened when the confederate flag was pulled from nascar, someone hangs one for Bubba Wallace.

[PC2]

It does not matter.

Anti-racist is probably the most obvious.

Okay so if only the specifically racists statues go down then we'll see if the protestors all become satisfied and have no issue with all the other historical statues in the US and Europe. For me I think there is like a zero percent chance they could ever be satisfied with that, but I hope they prove me wrong.

[Themius]

Okay so if only the specifically racists statues go down then we'll see if the protestors all become satisfied and have no issue with all the other historical statues in the US and Europe. For me I think there is like a zero percent chance they could ever be satisfied with that, but I hope they prove me wrong.

Huh, so what do you think people want, why do you think the people who want these statues down are somehow the radical people who will never stop? Why do you not feel this way about the people on the right? You know the ones going about trying to kill people because of their own hatred (according to our FBI and DHS)

[PC2]

Huh, so what do you think people want, why do you think the people who want these statues down are somehow the radical people who will never stop?

Because I think a lot of these folks mainly blame The West and capitalism for their failures and so even if they tear down all the slave-holders and racist statues there is virtually no chance that it will resolve their underlying problems and misconceptions.

Why do you not feel this way about the people on the right? You know the ones going about trying to kill people because of their own hatred (according to our FBI and DHS)

The far left and far right radicals are both equally crazy and have the same potential for violence. I personally just don't know how to solve it. On a site like this one I've constantly tried to tell Kokolums that civil war is dumb, insane, and can be easily avoided by convincing everyone to be more calm and rational. On Twitter I talk to a couple far right extremists(who also are Christian fundamentalists) and try to incrementally lower their level of hysteria and point out flaws in their thinking without triggering their cognitive dissonance. I'm just one person and I can only do so much.

[Themius]

Because I think a lot of these folks mainly blame The West and capitalism for their failures and so even if they tear down all the slave-holders and racist statues there is virtually no chance that it will resolve their underlying problems and misconceptions.



The far left and far right radicals are both equally crazy and have the same potential for violence. I personally just don't know how to solve it. On a site like this one I've constantly tried to tell Kokolums that civil war is dumb, insane, and can be easily avoided by convincing everyone to be more calm and rational. On Twitter I talk to a couple far right extremists(who also are Christian fundamentalists) and try to incrementally lower their hysteria and point out flaws in their thinking without triggering their cognitive dissonance. I'm just one person and I can only do so much.

The far right radicals are doing things like this:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/05/cesa...p-critics.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsb...gogue_shooting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_El_Paso_shooting

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...s-say/2478537/ (gave classified info to Neo nazi group by the way while planning attack)

Equally crazy equal potential for violence?

Why lie? Stop fucking pretending, do you live in some fucking fantasy world?

We all live on the same damn planet, we can look to the news and look at ACTUAL ATTACKS to know that this idea that left and right are equal is fucking bogus.

Stop being an apologist for the far right, by trying to equalise the actions of the left and right you are trying to minimise far right extremism

Tell me how many people are dying due to "radical left" why aren't the "radical left" the biggest growing threat according to the fbi?

according to right wing people
Radical left take away guns!
in reality
Radical Right walks into place and massacres tens of people and kills hundreds every year and has dozens of other domestic terror plots thwarted by the FBI.
Radical Left kicking over trash cans

[Felya]

Okay so in order to test your claim all we need to do is see whether the vandals try to destroy the statues of any non-slavers. If any do get destroyed then that will show that slavery isn't the true criteria for who and what they're targeting. I'm quite sure you will be proven wrong.

Go ahead... list every negative reason that these statues are taken down, as a representation of the west. Do it while claiming someone else is destroying the west... go for it, prove your point.

Yeah that's broader than anti-slavery and I'd say you're more accurate than Felya.

That’s great... you think this is what represents the west?

[PC2]

The far right radicals are doing things like this:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/05/cesa...p-critics.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsb...gogue_shooting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_El_Paso_shooting

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...s-say/2478537/ (gave classified info to Neo nazi group by the way while planning attack)

Equally crazy equal potential for violence?

Why lie? Stop fucking pretending, do you live in some fucking fantasy world?

We all live on the same damn planet, we can look to the news and look at ACTUAL ATTACKS to know that this idea that left and right are equal is fucking bogus.

Stop being an apologist for the far right, by trying to equalise the actions of the left and right you are trying to minimise far right extremism

Tell me how many people are dying due to "radical left" why aren't the "radical left" the biggest growing threat according to the fbi?

according to right wing people
Radical left take away guns!
in reality
Radical Right walks into place and massacres tens of people and kills hundreds every year and has dozens of other domestic terror plots thwarted by the FBI.
Radical Left kicking over trash cans

One theory here could be that far right crazies are more dangerous when it comes to lone-wolf violence where as left wing crazies are more likely to gather into groups where all the violence and property damage can't easily be attributed to one person like in those Wiki links. Each side has a different culture and so we can't take one factor like "recorded quantity of violent attacks" and then say that is the ultimate metric for knowing who has the larger capacity for violence.

[pathora44]

One theory here could be that far right crazies are more dangerous when it comes to lone-wolf violence where as left wing crazies are more likely to gather into groups where all the violence and property damage can't easily be attributed to one person like in those Wiki links. Each side has a different culture and so we can't take one factor like "recorded quantity of violent attacks" and then say that is the ultimate metric for knowing who has the larger capacity for violence.

Yes because trash cans being kicked over are the same as people being killed or actual terrorist attacks. Give us a break Mrs. Lovejoy because nobody gives a shit about the trashcans.