Tearing down historical statues the European edition

[PC2]

Yes because trash cans being kicked over are the same as people being killed or actual terrorist attacks. Give us a break Mrs. Lovejoy because nobody gives a shit about the trashcans.

I'm not sure how trashcans are relevant but in any case we should move the discussion towards ideas and not groups of people anyways.

One question is what is a good criteria that tells us when a historical statue should be destroyed? Based on real principles and not ad hoc arguments.

[Bigbazz]

Really we can tear them all down. If acting like common for the age is all it takes then all need to go down. Martin luther king was a homofobe i guess he need to go also.

You joke about this but if the truth came out about most of the previous saints they would have similar treatment, with the way the world works and the sheep/mob mentality of these sort of events it's only a matter of time before all the icons of the last 100 years become demons being judged by the standards of the current/future era, it is probably only a matter of time before MLK is on the hit list.

[Grapemask]

You joke about this but if the truth came out about most of the previous saints they would have similar treatment, with the way the world works and the sheep/mob mentality of these sort of events it's only a matter of time before all the icons of the last 100 years become demons being judged by the standards of the current/future era, it is probably only a matter of time before MLK is on the hit list.

Well, we should probably be proud if our society ever grows so ethically great that the great people of our time are the shitty people of theirs.

[PC2]

You joke about this but if the truth came out about most of the previous saints they would have similar treatment, with the way the world works and the sheep/mob mentality of these sort of events it's only a matter of time before all the icons of the last 100 years become demons being judged by the standards of the current/future era, it is probably only a matter of time before MLK is on the hit list.

No kidding. Here's my guess of the future;

People of 2020: Destroys the historical statues of all imperfect people with noticeable flaws.

People of 2320: Why on Earth did our ancestors do that? It was never reasonable to hold historical figures to modern standards.

[Ivanstone]

No kidding. Here's my guess of the future;

People of 2020: Destroys the historical statues of all imperfect people with noticeable flaws.

People of 2320: Why on Earth did our ancestors do that? It was never reasonable to hold historical figures to modern standards.

Confederates were immoral by Old Testament standards and their statues are nothing more than an act of propaganda created by racists to express their hatred of black people. They're not being held to modern standards, they're being judged by standards that preceded by them.

[Bigbazz]

Well, we should probably be proud if our society ever grows so ethically great that the great people of our time are the shitty people of theirs.

The other way to look at it is to glorify and focus on the flaws of otherwise good people who did great things by basing your view on them by current standards.. Example, someone could have been "homophobic" based on religious reasons/teachings but do great things to help a lot of people and make the world a better place, living a life helping people, while also having views that were considered normal and common at the time.

But then 200 years later someone finds out they held a common opinion that is no longer socially acceptable so they ignore all the positive aspects and deeds of that persons life and demonise them. I really don't think that humanity is in a better place in 200 years time if it's spending it's time looking back and judging us not on our triumphs and achievements, not on the good things we did, but instead on the minor flaws that never defined us to begin with.

Go back only 20 years and things that weren't racist and weren't done with any racist intent or thought are now seen as racist with intent, retroactively... I don't have much faith for people in 200 years to look back at us now and find the good elements. Martin Luther King will be demonised because of his views on homosexuals, while his great achievements towards progressing away from racism will be swiped aside.

No kidding. Here's my guess of the future;

People of 2020: Destroys the historical statues of all imperfect people with noticeable flaws.

People of 2320: Why on Earth did our ancestors do that? It was never reasonable to hold historical figures to modern standards.

The cultural revolution in China is a good extreme example of this. They destroyed their entire history, you have to go to Taiwan if you want to see ancient Chinese culture now because they burned it all for what was at the time a comparable thought process, though it was government driven, so quite a bit different on that front.

[PC2]

Confederates were immoral by Old Testament standards and their statues are nothing more than an act of propaganda created by racists to express their hatred of black people. They're not being held to modern standards, they're being judged by standards that preceded by them.

So instead of holding them to modern standards they should be held to an ancient standard written by some superstitious people who lived thousands of years ago. This may be the strangest argument I have heard in a very long time.

[Ivanstone]

So instead of holding them to modern standards they should be held to an ancient standard written by some superstitious people who lived thousands of years ago. This may be the strangest argument I have heard in a very long time.

Ya those superstitious assholes had so many weird ideas like thou shalt not kill or steal or kidnap people and sell them.

But by all means continue to advocate for slave-owners. It makes you seem like such a good person.

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Martin Luther King will be demonised because of his views on homosexuals, while his great achievements towards progressing away from racism will be swiped aside.

He won't be because he said very little on the subject and what he did say was remarkably polite. Remember when he did discuss homosexuality, it was criminalized in 49 out of 50 states.

Coretta Scott King believes that her husband was tolerant of homosexuals and she fought for their rights as well.

[Bigbazz]

He won't be because he said very little on the subject and what he did say was remarkably polite. Remember when he did discuss homosexuality, it was criminalized in 49 out of 50 states.

Coretta Scott King believes that her husband was tolerant of homosexuals and she fought for their rights as well.

These sort of details never matter, when you're talking mob mentality and the kinda events that lead to history being destroyed there isn't much context, nuance or objectivity involved, and a lot of confusion combined with raw energy and emotion. During the BLM protests some people vandalised and destroyed a monument to a black regiment.. It was literally a monument honouring some black folk..

If people had a good understanding of what was going on and were level headed then this thing would be less of a problem, but level headed people aren't typically the ones getting involved in public destruction, rioting and general inciting violence. Nor are the normal critical thinking level headed people the kinda folk who go looking for demons, or battles to fight where there weren't any.

[Xarkan]

These sort of details never matter, when you're talking mob mentality and the kinda events that lead to history being destroyed there isn't much context, nuance or objectivity involved, and a lot of confusion combined with raw energy and emotion. During the BLM protests some people vandalised and destroyed a monument to a black regiment.. It was literally a monument honouring some black folk..

If people had a good understanding of what was going on and were level headed then this thing would be less of a problem, but level headed people aren't typically the ones getting involved in public destruction, rioting and general inciting violence. Nor are the normal critical thinking level headed people the kinda folk who go looking for demons, or battles to fight where there weren't any.

The flip side of that is the level headed people do not really get the changes they need .. or at least not in their life span. At least going by what is going on in the US

[Ivanstone]

These sort of details never matter, when you're talking mob mentality and the kinda events that lead to history being destroyed there isn't much context, nuance or objectivity involved, and a lot of confusion combined with raw energy and emotion. During the BLM protests some people vandalised and destroyed a monument to a black regiment.. It was literally a monument honouring some black folk..

If people had a good understanding of what was going on and were level headed then this thing would be less of a problem, but level headed people aren't typically the ones getting involved in public destruction, rioting and general inciting violence. Nor are the normal critical thinking level headed people the kinda folk who go looking for demons, or battles to fight where there weren't any.

So you add to this lack of context by perpetuating bullshit like MLK was homophobic?

And again this leads us back to Confederate statues. What positives are there for having them? They're not historic and very, very few of them did good in their lives.
James Longstreet is one of the few who tried to redeem his sins and was promptly rewarded by a smear campaign and almost no statues dedicated to him.

[Shadowferal]

Well, we should probably be proud if our society ever grows so ethically great that the great people of our time are the shitty people of theirs.

Um...I was joking about bombing Mt Rushmore.
Just saying.

[Bigbazz]

So you add to this lack of context by perpetuating bullshit like MLK was homophobic?

And again this leads us back to Confederate statues. What positives are there for having them? They're not historic and very, very few of them did good in their lives.
James Longstreet is one of the few who tried to redeem his sins and was promptly rewarded by a smear campaign and almost no statues dedicated to him.

Helps if you follow the conversation you've butted yourself into at the halfway point.

[PC2]

They're not historic

That's an example of a very good argument for the ones that are only a couple decades old. If we were to use the "antique criteria" then only statues that are over a century old would be considered historical. The only problem with this criteria is that there's still a lot subjective grey area in the last 100 years. Maybe 50 years would be more reasonable.

[Yadryonych]

And again this leads us back to Confederate statues. What positives are there for having them? They're not historic and very, very few of them did good in their lives.
James Longstreet is one of the few who tried to redeem his sins and was promptly rewarded by a smear campaign and almost no statues dedicated to him.

My stance on confederate statues is as simple as this. There were once people who praised these figures and erected statues of them. There are now people now who hate these figures and are removing these statues. If there are still people holding these statues dear they should come out and defend them. If there's no one to defend them they have no value after all. At the end of the day, Germans failed to defend their statues of Hitler, so be it

[PC2]

My stance on confederate statues is as simple as this. There were once people who praised these figures and erected statues oc them. There are now people now who hate these figures and are removing these statues. If there are still people holding these statues dear they should come out and defend them. If there's no one to defend them they have no value after all. At the end of the day, Germans failed to defend their statues of Hitler, so be it

Except it only takes a matter of minutes to destroy statues so if were legal to destroy any statue then essentially the "defenders" would have to camp next to a statue for the rest of their life. I don't think some idiot should be able to destroy an MLK statue just because there was no one there to defend it 24/7/365.

There has to be a more civilized way of dealing with these issues that isn't based on physical conflict.

[Gurluas]

https://apnews.com/8825a7fce7d07e4d91b4d248fa411a8a

Government minister Sibeth Ndiaye — a close Macron ally and the most prominent black figure in current French politics — wrote an unusually personal essay Saturday in Le Monde calling for France to rethink its colorblind doctrine, which aims at encouraging equality by ignoring race altogether.

That is EXACTLY how it should be though, every person should be treated equally, race shouldn't factor into anything except history lessons about the past.

[Ivanstone]

My stance on confederate statues is as simple as this. There were once people who praised these figures and erected statues of them. There are now people now who hate these figures and are removing these statues. If there are still people holding these statues dear they should come out and defend them. If there's no one to defend them they have no value after all. At the end of the day, Germans failed to defend their statues of Hitler, so be it

CORRECTION:
There were once white people who praised these figures and erected statues of them. There were black people who always hated these figures but they couldn't do anything about them because they would get the shit kicked out of them by people wearing white hoods. The white hood people are mostly gone and the black people have allies. And so the statues go poof.

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Helps if you follow the conversation you've butted yourself into at the halfway point.

Helps if you realize where this conversation actually started.

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That's an example of a very good argument for the ones that are only a couple decades old. If we were to use the "antique criteria" then only statues that are over a century old would be considered historical. The only problem with this criteria is that there's still a lot subjective grey area in the last 100 years. Maybe 50 years would be more reasonable.

None of them were ever historic. They're part of the ahistoric Lost Cause that's been happening for over 150 years.

[Themius]

That is EXACTLY how it should be though, every person should be treated equally, race shouldn't factor into anything except history lessons about the past.

That isn't how it should be... you do not encourage equality by "ignoring" that race exists to begin with....

If you must not see a person as a race in order to see them as equal it says something.

What is the problem with seeing a black person as black? How can you expect anyone to have understanding about black issues or come to understand black issues if they start from the idea that race doesn't matter and they do not see race?

If you do not see race, then you do not see the pattern. Being "colourblind" doesn't serve anyone but those who do not have to deal with the ills of society because of colour.

[Yadryonych]

CORRECTION:
There were once white people who praised these figures and erected statues of them. There were black people who always hated these figures but they couldn't do anything about them because they would get the shit kicked out of them by people wearing white hoods. The white hood people are mostly gone and the black people have allies. And so the statues go poof.

Yes that's what I meant. If there are no people whose values statues represent there is no one to defend them since the police seem to be refusing to defend any kind of property these days

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That isn't how it should be... you do not encourage equality by "ignoring" that race exists to begin with..

Treating everyone equally is exactly how you achieve equality. If you want equity though, that's a different story