The Last of Us Part II

[Skorpionss]

I actually thought they were being to obvious Joel was going to die or had already died from the announcement trailer. You can just tell they are foreshadowing from the look and lighting when Joel enters the house. It was a bit to one the nose.

It's cool that you guys are such awesome detectives and could deduce that joel was gonna die from that, most of the regular people aren't though and we thought Joel would accompany Ellie on some journey, with them having their relationship in tatters after Ellie found out what he did at the end of the first game, and Joel could have still died but towards the middle of the game, around the time you start playing as Abby, and for a different reason/in a different way.

Or they could have the game play out the same but instead of killing Joel in that house, Abby lets him live and he survives but he has severe trauma, leaving him cripple and barely able to speak, Ellie sets off in this vengeance quest but right before she kills Abby, Joel steps in as he's been tracking her with the help of Tommy, and at the last moment catches the bullet meant for Abby. Broken by this Ellie kneels down next to Joel and hears him say he's sorry right before passing on, with her saying she forgives him, but it's too late cause he's already gone. Then she stands up and tells Abby to fuck off and hopes she never sees her again.

I think more people would have liked this story better than the current one.

[Tech614]

It's cool that you guys are such awesome detectives

It's not that it's just us, go read discussions from when the trailer first released. Almost no one thought it was going to be some "Joel and Ellie adventure" because it looks nothing like that, it looks like Ellie suffering and struggling to accept whatever happened.

I like all the goal post shifting from "Joel shouldn't of died!" to "he shouldn't of died in this way!". The fact it triggered the emotions it did proves it was the right decision and will be remembered as brave in the future once your shitty outrage vocal minority moves on to a new target to complain about.

[Coldkil]

I am watching a let's play cause i'm not gonna buy a PS for it. Story so far is good, i like the characters and everything. I don't get all the complaints i see running around, to me it looks like just a solid game.

I don't get all the hype aswell (as i didn't with the first, it's certainly a great game but not the end of all masterpiece i see mentioned around).

[ThatsOurEric]

So yeah, not nearly as good as the 1st game. Which is unsurprising, the best minds that made the 1st game weren't around for the 2nd
one. On top of many others things.

Look I obviously know the game is fiction and everything, but the Abby/Ellie fights were so fucking absurd that I couldn't take them the
least bit seriously.

I mean Abby is built like a female Brock Lesnar (yes, that is an exaggeration, but several characters make remarks about her very imposing
and physically powerful/muscular figure) and yet she can punch Ellie several times before Ellie goes down? Are you fucking kidding me?

And then an Abby who was left tied on a beach with no food or water for days, somehow has a long drawn out fight with Ellie? Who also got
impaled by a large sharp piece of wood earlier before, and absolutely should've bled out from that injury, but okay I guess not.

By far some of the dumbest, nonsensical shit I've ever seen.


Anyway, I get the message the game is trying to send, but damn is it not done well. It sacrifices too much of what made
the 1st game so damn incredible and endearing.

Also, really didn't like how this game seemed to do nothing but shit on Joel. It almost felt fan fiction level at times. Like
I get it, Joel isn't a true saint, but in a game where no one is, the sheer amount of pot calling the kettle black is damn
near eye rolling.

[Tech614]

Which is unsurprising, the best minds that made the 1st game weren't around for the 2nd

Name them.

[Very Tired]

I am watching a let's play cause i'm not gonna buy a PS for it. Story so far is good, i like the characters and everything. I don't get all the complaints i see running around, to me it looks like just a solid game.

I don't get all the hype aswell (as i didn't with the first, it's certainly a great game but not the end of all masterpiece i see mentioned around).

I just watch game play movies. It's basically all the cut scenes plus any and all of the actual game play you need to see to know the complete story. Saves a bit of time instead of watching the entire game.

[everydaygamer]

The biggest annoyance is people claiming that there could never have been a vaccine which is unbelievably stupid. Ellie's immunity is proof that it's possible, now I'm not saying it was a 100% guarantee that they could make it but I am saying it didn't matter. Joel would have done the same thing no matter what.

I decided to watch a bit more of Joe's stream to check out the point where Ellie found out what Joel did to see how he reacted and yeah get ready for another hot garbage review from him.

[Very Tired]

The biggest annoyance is people claiming that there could never have been a vaccine which is unbelievably stupid. Ellie's immunity is proof that it's possible, now I'm not saying it was a 100% guarantee that they could make it but I am saying it didn't matter. Joel would have done the same thing no matter what.

I decided to watch a bit more of Joe's stream to check out the point where Ellie found out what Joel did to see how he reacted and yeah get ready for another hot garbage review from him.

The game had a scene that went over even if other people with Ellie's immunity were found it wouldn't have mattered cause Joel killed the only doctor alive who knew how to develop it when he barged into the operating room.

[everydaygamer]

The game had a scene that went over even if other people with Ellie's immunity were found it wouldn't have mattered cause Joel killed the only doctor alive who knew how to develop it when he barged into the operating room.

I'm talking about how people justify his actions at the end of the first game by claiming that a cure was never possible to begin with. And that Joel was justified in his actions because of that, which is complete nonsense.

[bowlink]

Please people should have know the story in this game would be shit, its has Sarkeesian's stink on it. Seriously that woman has the brown hand of midas I.E. everything she touches turn to shit.

Then there was he Father's day tweet with Joel playing guitar the posted, talk about tasteless.

You should wary of any Dev or publisher that gets into bed with that hack Anita Sarkeesian, because that women will destroy anything she gets in contact with. You have been warned

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Please people should have know the story in this game would be shit, its has Sarkeesian's stink on it. Seriously that woman has the brown hand of midas I.E. everything she touches turn to shit.

Then there was he Father's day tweet with Joel playing guitar the posted, talk about tasteless.

You should wary of any Dev or publisher that gets into bed with that hack Anita Sarkeesian, because that women will destroy anything she gets in contact with. You have been warned

So what exactly did she contribute to the game that made it so bad? Or is this just more nebulous bitching because There’s a buff women and gays in it?

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The biggest annoyance is people claiming that there could never have been a vaccine which is unbelievably stupid. Ellie's immunity is proof that it's possible, now I'm not saying it was a 100% guarantee that they could make it but I am saying it didn't matter. Joel would have done the same thing no matter what.

I decided to watch a bit more of Joe's stream to check out the point where Ellie found out what Joel did to see how he reacted and yeah get ready for another hot garbage review from him.

Ya I went through joe’s steam a bit after I went though the whole story and it was really really childish. I don’t normally watch streams so Mabye it’s always like this but if not it seems pretty clear that is mind was made up before he started playing and that it doesn’t seem to be changing no matter what is in the actual game.

[Stormdash]

I'm talking about how people justify his actions at the end of the first game by claiming that a cure was never possible to begin with. And that Joel was justified in his actions because of that, which is complete nonsense.

Joel was right because involuntary human sacrifice is wrong in 100% of cases. It's the Fireflies' dumb fault if Ellie would have consented; they could have had that conversation with her. They could have let her write a goodbye letter to Joel. But a moral person in that situation has to assume that it's not enough to have an uneducated guess what someone "would have" agreed to.

That it's pretty ludicrous to think that the Fireflies could have come up with a cure rather than having just built an ideology and community around a belief in a cure... that's just gravy.

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The game had a scene that went over even if other people with Ellie's immunity were found it wouldn't have mattered cause Joel killed the only doctor alive who knew how to develop it when he barged into the operating room.

He probably should have put down the scalpel.

[ThatsOurEric]

Name them.

Bruce Straley, the original game's director and co-writer/creator of the 1st game.

[everydaygamer]

Joel was right because involuntary human sacrifice is wrong in 100% of cases. It's the Fireflies' dumb fault if Ellie would have consented; they could have had that conversation with her. They could have let her write a goodbye letter to Joel. But a moral person in that situation has to assume that it's not enough to have an uneducated guess what someone "would have" agreed to.

That it's pretty ludicrous to think that the Fireflies could have come up with a cure rather than having just built an ideology and community around a belief in a cure... that's just gravy.

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He probably should have put down the scalpel.

Except that it doesn't matter, even if Ellie said she was okay with it, and she stated several times throughout the game that she was prepared to do whatever it takes, Joel would have still killed everyone then lied to her about it afterwards. You can't just pretend that Joel did for it any other reason except his own selfish to desire to hang onto her because he refused to lose another daughter no matter how many had to die. Nor can you pretend the fireflies weren't capable of creating the cure because nothing indicates they couldn't.

[Stormdash]

Except that it doesn't matter, even if Ellie said she was okay with it, and she stated several times throughout the game that she was prepared to do whatever it takes

I think stopping them from killing her was objectively the right thing under the circumstance. I don't recall anything Ellie said having been in the explicit context of dying, and even if it had, there's a lot of things people say they'll die for when it's not actual and in front of them. They have the right to change their mind when it's real. Stopping them from just executing an unconscious kid was the right thing, as was whatever force was required to accomplish it. That being the case I don't care, subjectively, why he did it.

Nor can you pretend the fireflies weren't capable of creating the cure because nothing indicates they couldn't.

Pretend? It's not pretending. They were under constant threat and working in dank, squalid facilities in a post-apocalypse. Figuring they could accomplish something that more advanced well-sourced scientists couldn't do while there was still a world to save. I mean you can head-canon and wishcast for some believable mass-production and delivery system, let alone actually accomplishing the first step goal, but ultimately, the only evidence they even could do something like that was their own fervent, echo-chambered zealous belief that they could. Listen to the near religious ecstasy with which any Firefly characters refer to the notion of a cure, or refer to it in writing. The military dudes in "Night of the Comet" thought they could figure it out, too, but they were actually just nuts.

But again that's beside the point.

[everydaygamer]

I think stopping them from killing her was objectively the right thing under the circumstance. I don't recall anything Ellie said having been in the explicit context of dying, and even if it had, there's a lot of things people say they'll die for when it's not actual and in front of them. They have the right to change their mind when it's real. Stopping them from just executing an unconscious kid was the right thing, as was whatever force was required to accomplish it. That being the case I don't care, subjectively, why he did it.



Pretend? It's not pretending. They were under constant threat and working in dank, squalid facilities in a post-apocalypse. Figuring they could accomplish something that more advanced well-sourced scientists couldn't do while there was still a world to save. I mean you can head-canon and wishcast for some believable mass-production and delivery system, let alone actually accomplishing the first step goal, but ultimately, the only evidence they even could do something like that was their own fervent, echo-chambered zealous belief that they could. Listen to the near religious ecstasy with which any Firefly characters refer to the notion of a cure, or refer to it in writing. The military dudes in "Night of the Comet" thought they could figure it out, too, but they were actually just nuts.

But again that's beside the point.

Exactly it doesn't matter. Joel didn't do it because he thought the cure was impossible, he didn't do it because he thought Elle wouldn't want it, he did it because he didn't care about humanity nor that this might be the only chance of making a vaccine. He just couldn't let Ellie died so he killed anyone that might have wanted to take her from him. And even after that, he tells Ellie to hide her immunity because he's afraid someone else might come along with promises of making a cure and he knows Ellie would go along with it if convinced it could be done.

The fact is Joel even admits that he believed they might have been able to find a cure but he didn't care if it meant that Ellie would have to die. The fact that people dismiss because they'd rather believe Joel is some noble hero and that Ellie should be grateful is just frustrating.

[eschatological]

Oh stop eating shit, if anything the first trailer implied that Joel will be going on some new mission with Ellie, not that he was dead, why else show him at the end, and even go as far as model swapping him with Jessie (jesse? whatever). And literally nobody is pissed that Joel died, they are pissed of when, how and why he died.

People expected a new Joel and Ellie adventure, but maybe this time from Ellie's perspective, and a continuation of their relationship developing, but instead got shit on and got sent on a revenge plot with no resolution, where Ellie is the one that lost everything in the end.

Almost everyone I knew who saw the first trailer said, "Oh man, Joel's dead, isn't he? She's just imagining him, isn't she?" He literally walked in from the light, initially just as a shadow, and coalescing into his model, AFTER the battle when she was reflecting on what she had done. If he was alive, why wasn't he in the fight with her? Then he asks a question she's struggling with herself that makes no sense in the current context where she's won the present battle, "You really think you're gonna go through with this, kid?" to which she responds, "I'm gonna kill every last one of them." He's clearly playing the part of her conscience.

Edit: Also note: he said, "You really think YOU'RE gonna go through with this, kid?" and not "we."

It was so obvious, and something I thought from December of 2017 when that trailer premiered at the end of PSX.

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I think stopping them from killing her was objectively the right thing under the circumstance. I don't recall anything Ellie said having been in the explicit context of dying, and even if it had, there's a lot of things people say they'll die for when it's not actual and in front of them. They have the right to change their mind when it's real. Stopping them from just executing an unconscious kid was the right thing, as was whatever force was required to accomplish it. That being the case I don't care, subjectively, why he did it.

The "moral" choice is letting Ellie choose for herself. What Joel did was selfish and not considerate of her feelings. It's something that happens a lot in fatherhood. That's why there's lots of strippers in RL.

[Stormdash]

I've never said Ellie should be grateful. I do think the overall picture was dealt with with more emotional sophistication when you ended TLOU with her looking like she didn't really believe him but making the decision that her own life on its merits can be enough without martyrdom.

There's something so depraved and unhealthy in Ellie's attitude in either game whenever it sidles up to the notion that she has no value other than what she can buy them. With Joel, when it's her value as a commodity for a job, they actually face and reconcile it. But they never actually deal with the kinda sick pathos on the other side that Ellie just gets let to believe that her life has no value other than what it might mean to "the world". Without looking around and noticing that there ain't no fin world, at least not the one she's just heard of but never saw. And what's worse, TLOU 2 doubles down on this - not only because it kind of does it again with the hollow paint-by-numbers revenge plot point ("wow you deprive your life of all other meaning when you fixate on revenge, I'm glad someone came along to explain this to us for the very first time"), but because she's still up her own ass about the Fireflies and their dream.

The only healthy thing the girl says in the whole damn game was "But I'd like to try". That's the only concession she seems to make to the idea "hey, it's okay if someone values my life above what it can be traded for to someone else. I think that's something I can get comfortable with after all". But then she studiously throws it all away again with Dina, because... she is amazingly skilled at coming up with reasons why her life as it is right then and there isn't worth anything. There's always a Thing, something it has to be traded for. For a long time it was martyrdom, and then when she started to come to grips with that, it became revenge.

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The "moral" choice is letting Ellie choose for herself. What Joel did was selfish and not considerate of her feelings. It's something that happens a lot in fatherhood. That's why there's lots of strippers in RL.

The people that took her opportunity to choose explicitly, definitely, without it being a distant imagined hypothetical but a "we're doing this now" reality, were the Fireflies.

What do you think would have happened had Joel said 'well, wait a minute, let's let her wake up and make damn good and sure that's how she feels about it"? Why, they'd have tried to march him out of their at gunpoint, just as the same as they tried.

What do you think they would have done had they found her awake and standing behind Joel screaming "I don't wanna die I don't wanna die"? They'd have used force to take her, knocked her out, and prepped her for the surgery, and you damn well know it.

If Joel wanted her to have the choice, or didn't care, it comes to the same thing - they'd have resisted the attempt to get her informed consent with as much force as they resisted his attempt to rescue her unconscious. They chose what happened.

[eschatological]

I mean, I'm not making the argument that the Fireflies were acting morally either. But there could have been that conversation, just not when she was already under and in the operating room.

If she is screaming, "I don't wanna die!" and they come for her at gunpoint against her consent, THAT IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION FROM WHAT HAPPENED, and probably a whole lot more morally justified as self-defense.

[Kallisto]

Joel was right because involuntary human sacrifice is wrong in 100% of cases. It's the Fireflies' dumb fault if Ellie would have consented; they could have had that conversation with her. They could have let her write a goodbye letter to Joel. But a moral person in that situation has to assume that it's not enough to have an uneducated guess what someone "would have" agreed to.

That it's pretty ludicrous to think that the Fireflies could have come up with a cure rather than having just built an ideology and community around a belief in a cure... that's just gravy.

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He probably should have put down the scalpel.

No it isn't. Sometimes you have to break eggs. Only people who think 1 life even their own blood is worth more than the rest if humanity are monsters. If you believe that then you are a monster.


If humanity can be saved by thee death of one you do it. No hesitation. And you do it with a smile on your face knowing the species survives. If you stop it from happening then EVERY single person from that moment on that dies from being infected or killed by an infected you have murdered because you allowed that to happen pure and simple.

Joel is, and was the bad guy and he even says so himself. Deal with it.