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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    That is giving him a free pass. By this logic, you will be complaining about Trump, when he is in the past.
    Trump is the lesser evil. Because he is stupid and incompetent he will likely land himself in legal trouble after his presidency. Can you say the same for McConnell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Because of a majority of republicans? Not even all, since both Ayn Rand and Goldwater spoke up against Reagan at the time.
    So the GOP is the problem here? Shocking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    As much as it’s their fault for Trump’s actions... you are saying that focus on Trump distracts from state level issues, while I’m saying focusing on state level issues is distracting from Trump’s national action. I’m well versed on what Inslee is doing, but it’s not relevant to the national debate.
    You can't separate one from the other. Especially in regard to voting since that's controlled at the state level. Furthermore I am also pointing out that Trump is shitty but so are all of the other GOP at all levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Yes, while Trump explicitly stated that mail in voting is his biggest threat. Is that a national or state issue? Is that part of GOP plan that Trump is pushing or something new, as a response to some pandemic Trump fucked up?
    Its both state and federal. The GOP is substantially against voting rights and that includes mail in voting. The GOP is also against the USPS. Both of these pre-date Trump's presidency. Trump has his own stupid spin on it but other members of the GOP at the state and federal levels are the ones doing the real work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I did before asking you... list them... (it’s still open in a tab)

    Edit: To be completely transparent... read the right column... I’m going to focus on the one stating “first time in history diverting fund allocated by Congress”....
    And how did that work out for Trump?

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Except your point ignores history.
    Eisenhower - 484
    Kennedy -214
    Johnson - 325
    Nixon - 346
    Ford - 169
    Carter - 320
    Reagan - 381
    Bush - 166
    Clinton - 364
    Bush2 - 291
    Obama - 276
    Trump - 161 (it grew!)

    I'm not going to go through each order with a fine tooth comb. Its fair to assume that most of Trumps orders are shitty but also poorly written and sometimes not even legal. However, I'm also going to assume that Nixon, Ford, Reagan (especially Reagan) and both Bush's aren't much better because the GOP is an aggressively shitty party. They're not shitty because Trump is shitty. They're shitty because their policies are terrible and their voters are terrible. Trump has never been the problem.

    lol comparing 1 term presidents to 2-3 term presidents, presidents in war time......is....fun.

    Remember if we use the bar that Obama was the worst president ever, this is just another way Trump is on pace to be even worse-er-est
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  3. #203
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Trump is the lesser evil. Because he is stupid and incompetent he will likely land himself in legal trouble after his presidency. Can you say the same for McConnell?
    Hey... remember when I asked you to list Trump’s emergency declarations? In respect to McConnell and the sort of declarations Bush made... what does... Trump thought funds previously denied by Congress... mean? Specifically for McConnell, what does Trump seeking funds denied by Congress, mean?

    So the GOP is the problem here? Shocking.
    Is Goldwater or Ayn Rand GOP? If GOP was a problem in it self, why did I list them? Your talking past what I’m actually saying... seriously, WTF? Goldwater ran for president as GOP, yet had more venom towards Regan for destroying GOP, than you have even displayed... It’s how GOP groups are running ads against Trump.

    You can't separate one from the other. Especially in regard to voting since that's controlled at the state level. Furthermore I am also pointing out that Trump is shitty but so are all of the other GOP at all levels.
    If you can’t separate the two, than blaming Trump is apt. Thanks for proving my point?

    Its both state and federal. The GOP is substantially against voting rights and that includes mail in voting. The GOP is also against the USPS. Both of these pre-date Trump's presidency. Trump has his own stupid spin on it but other members of the GOP at the state and federal levels are the ones doing the real work.
    Great, since it’s both, I can complain about Trump doing it, thus complaining about them both... since they can’t be separated. I’ll bitch about local issues, on a local forum, to have the same effect. After all, less people here care about what is going on in Seattle, than America.

    And how did that work out for Trump?
    Pretty fucking well... This place was forced to shut down schools, because Trump ended up diverting military funds. Funds that included a school:

    https://home.army.mil/lewis-mcchord/index.php

    Edit: I just realized something... that last question... was that in reference to Congress, including McConnel, stoping Trump’s bullshit? Was that the point you just tried to make?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    lol comparing 1 term presidents to 2-3 term presidents, presidents in war time......is....fun.

    Remember if we use the bar that Obama was the worst president ever, this is just another way Trump is on pace to be even worse-er-est
    Eisenhower was a peace time president. And had a pretty good economy. And has one of the highest counters per year amongst any presidents.

    I wouldn't rely on his being entirely benign either since he was the guy who kicked off Operation Ajax and was more or less installed into office by a couple of oil barons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Hey... remember when I asked you to list Trump’s emergency declarations? In respect to McConnell and the sort of declarations Bush made... what does... Trump thought funds previously denied by Congress... mean? Specifically for McConnell, what does Trump seeking funds denied by Congress, mean?
    McConnell could've held Trump to account but didn't because he's the real problem here. Trump's just an idiot. I should also point out where does the Trump get his executive orders from? Someone's writing this stuff for him. I'm entirely certain every EO has a post-it-note attached that says:
    "ATTN. DONALD TRUMP. SIGN THIS DONALD TRUMP. IT WILL TRIGGER THE LIBS/OBUMMER/LAMESTREAMMEDIA. THANK YOU DONALD TRUMP."

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Is Goldwater or Ayn Rand GOP? If GOP was a problem in it self, why did I list them? Your talking past what I’m actually saying... seriously, WTF? Goldwater ran for president as GOP, yet had more venom towards Regan for destroying GOP, than you have even displayed... It’s how GOP groups are running ads against Trump.
    Goldwater was GOP. Rand was just a shitty sci-fi writer. There are also only two people. The majority of the GOP are firm believers in Ronnie's sainthood and continue to perpetuate his shitty policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    If you can’t separate the two, than blaming Trump is apt. Thanks for proving my point?

    Great, since it’s both, I can complain about Trump doing it, thus complaining about them both... since they can’t be separated. I’ll bitch about local issues, on a local forum, to have the same effect. After all, less people here care about what is going on in Seattle, than America.
    Trump is one person and not even the most important person. Again Trump is just a symptom of why the GOP is problematic. Five years ago if you asked me if someone who was loudly and openly racist could get elected I would say "yes". It didn't occur to me that it would be Trump because 5 years ago he was just a racist TV clown who went bankrupt too many times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Pretty fucking well... This place was forced to shut down schools, because Trump ended up diverting military funds. Funds that included a school:

    https://home.army.mil/lewis-mcchord/index.php

    Edit: I just realized something... that last question... was that in reference to Congress, including McConnel, stoping Trump’s bullshit? Was that the point you just tried to make?
    Partially. McConnell is still Trump's greatest enabler. I can't remember if there's any lawsuits in the wilds still.

  5. #205
    Hard to say, I was still pretty young during the Bush administration. Getting us into the Iraq War obviously a huge minus, and he has a decently justified reputation as an idiot, but I don't see how they're even comparable at this point.

    I can't remember George W. Bush ever tear gassing a church to clear out peaceful protesters for a photo op. Things have happened these last 4 years that I don't even have words for.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-06-21 at 09:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Hard to say, I was still pretty young during the Bush administration. Getting us into the Iraq War obviously a huge minus, and he has a decently justified reputation as an idiot, but I don't see how they're even comparable at this point.

    I can't remember George W. Bush ever tear gassing a church to clear out peaceful protesters for a photo op. Things have happened these last 4 years that I don't even have words for.
    Babies in Iraq are still being born with disabalities because of the chemicals the US unleashed on Iraq during that war, that is truly something to not have any words for.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    Babies in Iraq are still being born with disabalities because of the chemicals the US unleashed on Iraq during that war, that is truly something to not have any words for.
    It's clear that war caused immense damage to that country. It can be easy to skew perspective without thinking about it when still terrible, but less outright bloody damage is being done to your own country rather than someone else's.

    That's on me for being self-centered I suppose. "Worse" is a pretty vague term, but on the damage on the global scale, you're probably right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    That’s great... a tree huger like Gore wouldn’t have gone to war.
    He supported the war at the time. Your conception of him as a tree hugger conflicting with that hawkish position doesn't change that.

  9. #209
    Bush Sr signed the ADA, which is amazing. So his administration wasn't complete shit.

    I can't think of anything Bush Jr did what was positive, and none for Trump. Both were stupid af, but with Bush Jr. I'd only have to facepalm maybe every 2 weeks at worst at his stupidity. But with Trump and just his madness on twitter and other crap I'm not just facepalming on a daily basis, but several times a day in many cases. Like I feel embarrassed for this country because of him. Like I feel attitudes towards this country was love it or hate it pre-trump, but now it just feels like it's just universal pity, UN just outright laughing at him. So I'm going with Trump being worse.

  10. #210
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    Bush Sr signed the ADA, which is amazing. So his administration wasn't complete shit.

    I can't think of anything Bush Jr did what was positive, and none for Trump. Both were stupid af, but with Bush Jr. I'd only have to facepalm maybe every 2 weeks at worst at his stupidity. But with Trump and just his madness on twitter and other crap I'm not just facepalming on a daily basis, but several times a day in many cases. Like I feel embarrassed for this country because of him. Like I feel attitudes towards this country was love it or hate it pre-trump, but now it just feels like it's just universal pity, UN just outright laughing at him. So I'm going with Trump being worse.
    Him tweeting or saying stupid is all it took to make him worse than somebody who destroyed entire countries with chemical warfare?

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    He supported the war at the time. Your conception of him as a tree hugger conflicting with that hawkish position doesn't change that.
    Your description of him as hawkish, goes against everything not only known, but pushed by the right, about him. Oh and there is this:

    Al Gore's speech on Iraq
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/sep/23/usa.iraq
    We are perfectly capable of staying the course in our war against Osama bin Laden and his terrorist network, while simultaneously taking those steps necessary to build an international coalition to join us in taking on Saddam Hussein in a timely fashion.

    I don't think that we should allow anything to diminish our focus on avenging the 3,000 Americans who were murdered and dismantling the network of terrorists who we know to be responsible for it. The fact that we don't know where they are should not cause us to focus instead on some other enemy whose location may be easier to identify.

    Nevertheless, President Bush is telling us that the most urgent requirement of the moment - - right now - - is not to redouble our efforts against al-Qaeda, not to stabilise the nation of Afghanistan after driving his host government from power, but instead to shift our focus and concentrate on immediately launching a new war against Saddam Hussein. And he is proclaiming a new, uniquely American right to pre-emptively attack whomsoever he may deem represents a potential future threat.
    Oopsie daisy...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  12. #212
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    I'll just say that Canadian relations with the USA have never been worse in my lifetime. Despite Bush being a bit of a goof, at least he didn't drag us into stupid NAFTA re-negotiations that effectively changed little aside from try to screw us and Mexico over. Not to mention your media hysteria is seeping over into ours. You all better get out and vote to get rid of Cheeto so this crap can stop, because frankly I'm tired of the perpetual crying and noise coming from American media over Trump.

  13. #213
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    Him tweeting or saying stupid is all it took to make him worse than somebody who destroyed entire countries with chemical warfare?
    Wait... Now you are defending Bush?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    McConnell could've held Trump to account but didn't because he's the real problem here. Trump's just an idiot. I should also point out where does the Trump get his executive orders from? Someone's writing this stuff for him. I'm entirely certain every EO has a post-it-note attached that says:
    "ATTN. DONALD TRUMP. SIGN THIS DONALD TRUMP. IT WILL TRIGGER THE LIBS/OBUMMER/LAMESTREAMMEDIA. THANK YOU DONALD TRUMP."
    Held to account? For what? Congress denied him the funding, Trump is the first president in US history, to use emergency declaration to fund his pet project. As I said, this didn’t own the libs, it owned school children on US military bases. Pretending this and his EO are just to own the libs, is cover for damage he is doing to everyone.

    Goldwater was GOP. Rand was just a shitty sci-fi writer. There are also only two people. The majority of the GOP are firm believers in Ronnie's sainthood and continue to perpetuate his shitty policies.
    How many republicans would satiate you? I used Rand, because she is a hallmark of GOP’s ideology and Goldwater because he was likely the most prominent GOP before Reagan. But, if you want to look at all the names under GOP super packs attacking Trump, like the Lincoln project, feel free to check... see if it meets your quantitive quota.

    Trump is one person and not even the most important person. Again Trump is just a symptom of why the GOP is problematic. Five years ago if you asked me if someone who was loudly and openly racist could get elected I would say "yes". It didn't occur to me that it would be Trump because 5 years ago he was just a racist TV clown who went bankrupt too many times.
    Yet, I was able to show how uniquely Trump is getting around the people you claim are more powerful. Strange......

    Partially. McConnell is still Trump's greatest enabler. I can't remember if there's any lawsuits in the wilds still.
    Yeah, and the “still” is called bias...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Held to account? For what? Congress denied him the funding, Trump is the first president in US history, to use emergency declaration to fund his pet project. As I said, this didn’t own the libs, it owned school children on US military bases. Pretending this and his EO are just to own the libs, is cover for damage he is doing to everyone.
    Stop saying "he". Trump is just an idiot signing whatever the GOP puts in front of him. All those EO's he's signing? Do you honestly think he writes them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    How many republicans would satiate you? I used Rand, because she is a hallmark of GOP’s ideology and Goldwater because he was likely the most prominent GOP before Reagan. But, if you want to look at all the names under GOP super packs attacking Trump, like the Lincoln project, feel free to check... see if it meets your quantitive quota.
    Why are you defending the shitty racist plutocrat party? Seriously. After Trump's gone they'll still be a shitty racist plutocrat party. They're not against Trump because he's a racist asshole, they're against Trump because he's an incompetent at being a racist asshole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Yet, I was able to show how uniquely Trump is getting around the people you claim are more powerful. Strange......
    He gets nothing done without McConnell and to a lesser extent Paul Ryan and Kevin McCarthy. Nevermind all the state level GOP who put him into office in the first place. Again Trump's just a symptom of the problem, not the actual problem.

  15. #215
    "Paul Ryan?"
    Really?

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    "Paul Ryan?"
    Really?
    "Lesser Extent". Paul Ryan was still Speaker of the House and therefore has enough power to get shit done if he so chooses. What he chose was to let Trump ramble on and increase America's economic woes instead.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Eisenhower was a peace time president. And had a pretty good economy. And has one of the highest counters per year amongst any presidents.

    I wouldn't rely on his being entirely benign either since he was the guy who kicked off Operation Ajax and was more or less installed into office by a couple of oil barons.

    .
    He was?

    In office January 20, 1953 – January 20, 1961

    Korean War began June 25, 1950 ended July 27, 1953


    He even evoked war defense production exec orders

    Executive Order 10433
    Further Providing for the Administration of the Defense Production Act of 1950, as Amended
    Signed: February 4, 1953

    Executive Order 10434
    Suspension of Wage and Salary Controls Under the Defense Production Act of 1950, as Amended
    Signed: February 6, 1953

    Executive Order 10438
    Transferring Certain Functions of the National Security Resources Board and of the Chairman Thereof to the Director of Defense Mobilization
    Signed: March 13, 1953

    Executive Order 10443
    Suspension of the Eight-Hour Law as to Laborers and Mechanics Employed by the Atomic Energy Commission on Public Work Essential to the National Defense
    Signed: April 7, 1953

    etc etc etc
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    He was?

    In office January 20, 1953 – January 20, 1961

    Korean War began June 25, 1950 ended July 27, 1953
    Ok fine. He had 6 months in a war that he didn't start and was winding down when he took office You get your gold star in pedantry.

    Trump isn't particularly unique in his use of EO's. You might not like his particular EOs (they're mostly awful) but he really isn't behaving unusually in his reliance on them. Again the problem isn't that Trump is shitty, its that he belongs to a shitty party that's been doing shitty things since 1968.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Ok fine. He had 6 months in a war that he didn't start and was winding down when he took office You get your gold star in pedantry.

    Trump isn't particularly unique in his use of EO's. You might not like his particular EOs (they're mostly awful) but he really isn't behaving unusually in his reliance on them. Again the problem isn't that Trump is shitty, its that he belongs to a shitty party that's been doing shitty things since 1968.
    whelp its not just nit picking he made a lot of EO's specifically due to that war, defense, nukes just being propagated in the world outside the US, the creation of thermo nuclear weapons, etc etc.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  20. #220
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Trump isn't particularly unique in his use of EO's.
    When I link one, that specifically states that Trump’s order was the first of its kind in history, this is just blind bias.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

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