Should flying have DIED with TBC?

[oplawlz]

Blizzard should have continued to support flying in their world design as they did through WotLK rather than make boring ground-only content and cry that no one wanted to do it.

[ghays]

That’s a bingo!

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clear cut no, design content around the fact that you MUST have a flying mount, make location for farming etc that you can only reach with a flying mount, make dungeons dependant on having flying mount to get there, and make flying more expensive like charge 100k gold or so for the privilege to use it in a current expansion. really the tools are out there for making flying great

The problem is that Blizzard is historically lazy in some aspects of their content design. Always using difficult terrain to burn up time as a substitute for better design.

[rhorle]

If they did the flight master whistle sure. The recent design of a ton of flight paths and the whistle make it so flying or no flying isn't really an issue. Nice to have but doable with out. The game though didn't have that design so flying as convenience had a lot more value. I also think that druids shouldn't have a monopoly on instant mounts but that is another topic and one of the few reasons why my druid is my second most played character.

[msdos]

I always just opted out of flying. In BC I never trained flying and in Wrath the only reason I trained it was because you had to fly to the Naxx entrance, the Warlocks stopped summoning after a while.

It really isn't something I care about. I never unlocked it in BFA. I feel like it's pointless for a few reasons, but with Warmode there really is no reason to ever fly. I'm also a huge fan of the ferry/whistle. I like transportation that lets me take my hands off the keyboard for a bit, that isn't a loading screen, that won't take me to the middle of no where if I focus on something else.

[Raelbo]

Because they're either:

• Abusing Warmode bonuses,

I am not entirely sure what you're referring to, but it sounds like a WPvP problem, not a flying problem.

• Abusing flying to kill (lower level/geared) people and then avoid people fighting back

How on earth does that qualify as "abuse"?

Seems more like using flying to do exactly what WPvP is intended to do - find players to kill so that you can kill them. There is absolutely no rule in the game, said or unsaid, that you have to stick around after ganking an easy kill and wait for a reprisal. The whole point of WPvP is to kill while avoiding getting killed yourself.

• Abusing Class/race mechanics to get away when they otherwise wouldn't be able to. i.e. CC > Fly away.

Again, how exactly is that "abuse"?

Sometimes people want to get away from WPvP. Your argument seems to be that they shouldn't be allowed to. Which is just ridiculous.

And this is the fundamental problem with the "flying hurts WPvP" argument. That it attempts to lay the blame on flying for people doing what they want to do in WPvP which you don't want them doing, instead of recognising that an inherent property of WPvP is that it pretty much requires that only one party gets what they want - while the other one gets screwed.

It's really not a difficult concept to understand that flying does fuck up WPvP.

No. WPvP fucked itself up just fine without flying because WPvP is a fundamentally flawed as a concept for having fun that most people would rather avoid than engage in. But because Blizzard have this glorified notion that WPvP is part of what makes WoW special (putting the "war" in warcraft), they provide all sorts of enticements to try and bribe people to switch WM on, which simply results in people opting in for a mode that they don't actually care about in chase of added rewards. Unsurprisingly the result is the opposite of fun.

But hey, let's blame flying for the problems, because then it means we don't have to accept the reality that WPvP as a concept is fundamentally flawed and can continue to cling to our romanticised delusion about how wonderful it really is

[Soisoisoi]

I am not entirely sure what you're referring to [...]

It's very obvious that you never actually WPvP from your replies and are purely replying in an effort to say flying is somehow acceptable. Nobody in their right mind actually thinks it's "fine". Your entire post of non-answers is countered by the fact Warmode was great before the patch that introduced Flying. If you don't actually like WPvP then just don't bother replying for the sake of flying when it's entirely possible to simply make flying not available in Warmode, then everyone is happy.

I'll break my reply down for you though:

Abusing Warmode bonuses: People are joining Warmode simply for the bonus, refusing to PvP, and flying allows them to do that. If someone wants to get away from any non-group, they can do so easily.

Abusing flying to kill/harass:

• Groups of gankers hovering nearby around someone with a bounty as bait but out-of-sight. Able to fly in within seconds.
• Groups of people simply flying around, flying is so fast that they can swoop in and kill you and you can't do shit about it, you just have a group suddenly on top of you. Usually for the weekly kill quests.
• Killing people - either low levels, massively undergeared, or otherwise - in a completely unfair fight. Flying above them to not allow any rematch/revenge/whatever (via main if low level), and just harrassing from above. This isn't people ganking and flying away, this is people ganking and waiting above out of reach. People will legit sit on their flying mount high above the ground until they relog their alt, kill them, then fly away again for their main.

Abusing Class/Race mechanics: Quite simple, Night Elfs can Shadowmeld, Vanish/Feign Death/Invis type of abilities that break combat can all be used to mount up and get away with zero way of catching them. Even just plain 8 second CC is long enough to drop combat and mount up making them untouchable. The net can be outranged with the speed of flying very easily, and puts the user in combat so they can't mount up and catch someone using flying's momentum or gliders to get away.

None of this would be possible (and is proven as such prior to flying patch) without flying, when Warmode is actually fun. So to repeat again - You obviously do not participate in WPvP, removing flying from Warmode doesn't affect you. Simple answer is to remove flying from Warmode, then everyone is happy.

[Raelbo]

It's very obvious that you never actually WPvP from your replies and are purely replying in an effort to say flying is somehow acceptable.

I always play with WM on with my main. Seems your entire argument is thus defeated....

Nobody in their right mind actually thinks it's "fine". Your entire post of non-answers is countered by the fact Warmode was great before the patch that introduced Flying. If you don't actually like WPvP then just don't bother replying for the sake of flying when it's entirely possible to simply make flying not available in Warmode, then everyone is happy.

Firstly, WM was never "great". The "proof" is that they needed to bribe players to use it with significant PvE rewards (on top of the PvP rewards), especially for the weaker faction.

Secondly I would be 100% fine with flying being disabled with WM on. In fact I'd love to see it happen just to prove my point. But instead we can accept as evidence the fact that Blizzard won't do it because they know that it will cause a massive outcry as well as kill WM, and as I already said, Blizzard are emotionally invested in the success of WM.

Because here's the truth: The vast majority of people using WM do so for the bonus rewards in the face of minimal disadvantages. The number of people who use WM because they prefer the WPvP experience is minimal. But without the rest of the folks who are bribed to be there, WM would simply not be viable.

Simply put: If players had to choose between playing the game with flying and playing in Warmode, there would be no contest. The fact that you like Warmode is affecting your objectivity on this though, and causing you to blame flying when, in reality, the problem very clearly lies with Warmode just not being particularly appealing.

Abusing Warmode bonuses: People are joining Warmode simply for the bonus, refusing to PvP, and flying allows them to do that. If someone wants to get away from any non-group, they can do so easily.

Oh I agree 100% that people are only joining WM for the bonus. But that's not abuse. It's exactly what Blizzard wanted. And, as I said above, it's frankly the only way to ensure the "success" of the feature, because without those bonuses, WM would appeal to maybe 5% of the playerbase.

As for your argument that flying "allows" people to participate in WM even if they don't want to, I call BS on that one. People have been "abusing" (your words) WM for the bonus since day 1. Flying simply allows people to play WM the way they prefer. It's not the fault of flying that your preferred way of doing WM simply wasn't very appealing in the first place.

Abusing flying to kill/harass:

• Groups of gankers hovering nearby around someone with a bounty as bait but out-of-sight. Able to fly in within seconds.
• Groups of people simply flying around, flying is so fast that they can swoop in and kill you and you can't do shit about it, you just have a group suddenly on top of you. Usually for the weekly kill quests.
• Killing people - either low levels, massively undergeared, or otherwise - in a completely unfair fight. Flying above them to not allow any rematch/revenge/whatever (via main if low level), and just harrassing from above. This isn't people ganking and flying away, this is people ganking and waiting above out of reach. People will legit sit on their flying mount high above the ground until they relog their alt, kill them, then fly away again for their main.

I didn't ask for a list of things you don't like about WM with flying. I asked you substantiate your claim that it qualifies as abuse.

It really sounds as though you're salty that WPvP isn't "fair" and you're putting that all on flying even though WPvP is pretty much by design, always going to be unfair, because no one really wants it to be fair, they want the odds stacked in their favour.

If you don't like getting killed by a gank squad it means you don't like WPvP. There's a button for that.

Abusing Class/Race mechanics: Quite simple, Night Elfs can Shadowmeld, Vanish/Feign Death/Invis type of abilities that break combat can all be used to mount up and get away with zero way of catching them. Even just plain 8 second CC is long enough to drop combat and mount up making them untouchable. The net can be outranged with the speed of flying very easily, and puts the user in combat so they can't mount up and catch someone using flying's momentum or gliders to get away.

How is that abuse?

If you're outmatched, fleeing is a legitimate option. The other day I had a pally pop bubble and hearth. No flying mount involved in that "abuse".

None of this would be possible (and is proven as such prior to flying patch) without flying, when Warmode is actually fun. So to repeat again - You obviously do not participate in WPvP, removing flying from Warmode doesn't affect you. Simple answer is to remove flying from Warmode, then everyone is happy.

The fact that people started doing this once flying made it possible proves that doing so is clearly more fun than not doing it. Which demonstrates very clearly that the problem lies with WPvP.

I am not refuting that you prefer a different kind of WPvP experience, but honestly, I think you're speaking for a tiny minority, and that the majority have spoken, loudly, through their action.

Also, as mentioned above, your argument of authority is severely undermined by your the fact that you chose to base it on the false assumption that I don't use Warmode.

[TheFirstOnes]

Uhm, why? Flying helps with traveling easier. If we didn't get flying, then in expansions such as Legion, people would've complained expansion wide (And not JUST in 7.0/7.1) just how cluttered the zones are when traveling on foot, as well as the fact that some of the zones are just bitches to go through (Cause you'll either get stuck, dazed by Mobs countlessly, etc).

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It's literally terrible game design to not have flying. And this game is bad enough as it is at the moment.

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It's very obvious that you never actually WPvP from your replies and are purely replying in an effort to say flying is somehow acceptable. Nobody in their right mind actually thinks it's "fine". Your entire post of non-answers is countered by the fact Warmode was great before the patch that introduced Flying. If you don't actually like WPvP then just don't bother replying for the sake of flying when it's entirely possible to simply make flying not available in Warmode, then everyone is happy.

I'll break my reply down for you though:

Abusing Warmode bonuses: People are joining Warmode simply for the bonus, refusing to PvP, and flying allows them to do that. If someone wants to get away from any non-group, they can do so easily.

Abusing flying to kill/harass:

• Groups of gankers hovering nearby around someone with a bounty as bait but out-of-sight. Able to fly in within seconds.
• Groups of people simply flying around, flying is so fast that they can swoop in and kill you and you can't do shit about it, you just have a group suddenly on top of you. Usually for the weekly kill quests.
• Killing people - either low levels, massively undergeared, or otherwise - in a completely unfair fight. Flying above them to not allow any rematch/revenge/whatever (via main if low level), and just harrassing from above. This isn't people ganking and flying away, this is people ganking and waiting above out of reach. People will legit sit on their flying mount high above the ground until they relog their alt, kill them, then fly away again for their main.

Abusing Class/Race mechanics: Quite simple, Night Elfs can Shadowmeld, Vanish/Feign Death/Invis type of abilities that break combat can all be used to mount up and get away with zero way of catching them. Even just plain 8 second CC is long enough to drop combat and mount up making them untouchable. The net can be outranged with the speed of flying very easily, and puts the user in combat so they can't mount up and catch someone using flying's momentum or gliders to get away.

None of this would be possible (and is proven as such prior to flying patch) without flying, when Warmode is actually fun. So to repeat again - You obviously do not participate in WPvP, removing flying from Warmode doesn't affect you. Simple answer is to remove flying from Warmode, then everyone is happy.

All of this can be avoided by more than 1 reason:

1. Turn off Warmode.

2. Make a group and gank the gankers. I personally don't see why any of this is a problem, since this has been a thing in WoW since 2004, but with Flying added ontop of it.

3. Avoid them.

I feel like, if you're playing an MMORPG where you can fly in PVP and do all this crazy ass shit, then you should expect some guys to be absolute dicks and murder your ass to death (Especially with flying). It's literally been like this since WoTLK bro.

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I feel like some people here have only just started playing since WoD or some shit, cause these PVP complaints have existed since LONG before expansions like MoP, or even Cata.

[ClassicPeon]

Didnt vote because i think it might have been a good idea even though i love flying.

Either way blizzard needs to take a stance. Either allow flying and design content around it. Or disallow it and remove it all together.

This flying near the end of expansion thing is just a pisstake. I'd rather see them keep flying though. The whole thing about the world being dangerous and pvp and stuff doesnt hold up.Even with the new world pvp system people only turn it on because you get ekstra rewards from wq's. Almost noone does world pvp even with it turned on.

[Raelbo]

I feel like some people here have only just started playing since WoD or some shit, cause these PVP complaints have existed since LONG before expansions like MoP, or even Cata.

Honestly, I think a lot of people just have a romanticised idea of what WPvP used to be like back in the day, and blame changes to the game for their inability to relive those experiences, never stopping to consider that maybe the way in which people have changed is actually the issue.

[SirCowdog]

Honestly, I think a lot of people just have a romanticised idea of what WPvP used to be like back in the day, and blame changes to the game for their inability to relive those experiences, never stopping to consider that maybe the way in which people have changed is actually the issue.

This times 9000.

Which is funny, because if there's anything that destroys the nostalgia of "How WPVP really was back in the day!", it's Classic WoW. Entire zones on PVP servers being taken over by syndicates or conglomerates of guilds in order to monopolize crafting mats is probably the most damning evidence that WPVP was never fair. Servers where the faction imbalance is so bad that WPVP fights are literally 100 to 1.

This obsession with trying to glorify WPVP as being "fair" is a pipe dream. Ganking low level players happens with or without flight. Unfair fights where an entire raid of players shows up to kill the solo player happens with or without flight. Players using racial or class abilities to escape and evade combat happens with or without flight.

The entire practice of blaming all the woes of WPVP on flying is the most misguided, misinformed, rose-tinted delusion that I've ever seen persist in WoW. I'm frankly amazed that there are STILL people repeating it today.

[Belloc]

Hey guys, if you stopped replying to Ron Burgundy's threads, he'd probably stop making them.

[Velerios]

As said before: in Wotlk, but especially in BC they created content with flying in mind: when you flew over the questing zones in BC you could get easily dismounted: either you fly over too low on a horde-town, then you can get struck down (and having a nasty debuff, so slow fall and levitation did not exactly work, especially since you also needed reagents for it to work (light feather farming ftw) or you get show down by a fel cannon. BC had some ways to get people dismounted, and that's actually something they never utilized again.

(ok, except in MoP in 5.1, when you fly over the enemy base and get shot down by these very overpowered cannons, and yes, i LOVED IT)

And also zones with flying in mind. Althrough: i would have LOVED to have flying only available after loremaster, giving us only the flying alternative of the goblin town in Storm peaks (and yes, if you don't have flying there, you actually can get a flying alternative there that works only in storm peaks and icecrown), and no flying in Icecrown at all. Yes, questing through icecrown only with a ground mount would be far more intense. (and i think that they created icecrown actually with a ground mount in mind)

All in all: remove pathfinder, tie it to loremaster and create engame-content with flying in mind (forcing people to dismount sometimes) and voila.

And as Saint Todd say:
"It just works"