Could it be time for Universal Basic Income discussion?

[XDurionX]

UBI will become inevitable at some point in the foreseeable future, maybe not today, but twenty years down the road .

And it's by far not as expensive as people think it is, because it replaces a lot of benefits like pensions, child allowances etc., plus a HUGE bureaucratic apparatus will become obsolete. It is absolutely doable, and it will become mandatory when millions of drivvers will lose their jobs to autonomous cars.

[cubby]

you dont. few countries did limited population test runs and imidiately gave up the idea.

why ? because people always chose the option to just not work .

and with nobody working there would be no taxes to support this idiotic idea.

look at covid - half of people rejoiced and treated those first few weeks like extra paid vacation - because thats exackly what it has been in most of European countries . while US had protests on street due to lack of social support programs.

Someone didn't do their research on how UBI would actually work.... People having the option to not work is part of the equation. People working to earn more than UBI is also part of it. There are others - read up, knowledge is power!

[PC2]

UBI will become inevitable at some point in the foreseeable future, maybe not today, but twenty years down the road .

And it's by far not as expensive as people think it is, because it replaces a lot of benefits like pensions, child allowances etc., plus a HUGE bureaucratic apparatus will become obsolete. It is absolutely doable, and it will become mandatory when millions of drivvers will lose their jobs to autonomous cars.

I wouldn't by any means say it's inevitable because it's competing with all the other forms of eligibility-based welfare which are actually more progressive than UBI.

And Yang's proposal is pretty damn expensive in 2020 which means it'll either be less expensive in 20 years as the economy grows or they would have to double the payout to $2k per month which then cause it to be extremely expensive again. There's also no guarantee that legislators would be able to get rid of the pre-existing social programs to make room for UBI.

Knowing what people will prefer 20 years ahead of time is effectively impossible.

[Masark]

and with nobody working there would be no taxes to support this idiotic idea.

You think that personal income tax is the only possible tax?

[kamuimac]

Someone didn't do their research on how UBI would actually work.... People having the option to not work is part of the equation. People working to earn more than UBI is also part of it. There are others - read up, knowledge is power!

and all of people who took part in that experiment chosen option to just not work - and whole experiment felt apart.

the theory is nice. but so is communism - both just dont work in reality

reality is majority of population - who work low wage jobs would just choose not to work at all . and who would took over their jobs ? robots ? thats song of distant future.

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You think that personal income tax is the only possible tax?

so what would you tax ? tax AI and robots ? this would imidiatley hold any progress in that department because suddenly people would be again cheaper to hire - but with UBI people wouldnt want to work - so everything falls apart.

[Daedius]

€350/week off the Covid Government payment scheme here in Ireland for those laid off or temporarily... it is not sustainable. More so when there's a ton of fraudulent claims being made, easily I might add... such as some teen getting €3K a week with fake IDs.

[Masark]

and whole experiment felt apart.

so what would you tax ? tax AI and robots ? this would imidiatley hold any progress in that department because suddenly people would be again cheaper to hire - but with UBI people wouldnt want to work - so everything falls apart.

Except the experiments did not "fall apart". They were intentionally dismantled by right-wing governments, presumably because they really don't want there to be more evidence of their ideology's complete moral and intellectual bankruptcy.

Mincome was terminated early when the conservative government of Joe Clark took power.

Ontario's basic income pilot was terminated early when Ford's conservatives there took government.

And have you ever heard of corporate income tax?

Furthermore, your claim that people "wouldn't want to work" is directly contradictory to the available findings we've been able to get before right-wingers smash everything. It also uses an absurd definition of "work".

[kamuimac]

€350/week off the Covid Government payment scheme here in Ireland for those laid off or temporarily... it is not sustainable. More so when there's a ton of fraudulent claims being made, easily I might add... such as some teen getting €3K a week with fake IDs.

350 a week means 1400 euro a month . you can easily survive with that. ofc you wont be able to afford yourself any luxuries but for basic nessesities ? its more then enough . and thats exackly what UBI is supposed to be.

a lot of people have strange ideas regarding UBI - it was never even in theory meant to give you anything more then put roof over your head (in form of rented apartment/room) , enough food to survive (so around 2k calorie a day ) and cheap clothers (possibly fron 2nd hand shops)

while i have suspition that some people belive that UBI will sponsor them their own homes,cars , designer clothes and as much food as they would like.

[Ihavewaffles]

With the COVID crisis and then AI and robots, fast approaching might be time to look into how to deal with all of this. What do you all think?

I posted about this months ago, robotization could allow everyone to stay at home, could fast seperate the healthy from the infected, so the healthy could go out again within the week n not wait for months, not have economy take a hit..

[Gaidax]

I posted about this months ago, robotization could allow everyone to stay at home, could fast seperate the healthy from the infected, so the healthy could go out again within the week n not wait for months, not have economy take a hit..

We're a good 3 decades off from where it can actually be feasible. There's one thing to show off some prototype that is even remotely useful and whole another thing to have this at scale and making sense financially.

[xenogear3]

UBI is based on the idea that there are more people than jobs.
Instead of competing for jobs, they can choice to live with UBI.

UBI is given to everyone so there is no fraud involved.
The biggest resistance is from corporations and the current welfare receivers.

It may become true if we are in recession for 4 years, and people vote Republicans out.

[Ihavewaffles]

We're a good 3 decades off from where it can actually be feasible. There's one thing to show off some prototype that is even remotely useful and whole another thing to have this at scale and making sense financially.

Agreed, I just meant if we had it today, how effective it would be to contain covid-19, so effective will there even be a need for cures for covid-19 n other diseases if one can stop spread?

[Themius]

Govermnent invesing money into industries to create more jobs and provide people with fishing rod, not with fish, maybe?

We invested 3300 per person into companies.... they took the money, lowered wages, laid off people, bought up their own stock.

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you dont. few countries did limited population test runs and imidiately gave up the idea.

why ? because people always chose the option to just not work .

and with nobody working there would be no taxes to support this idiotic idea.

look at covid - half of people rejoiced and treated those first few weeks like extra paid vacation - because thats exackly what it has been in most of European countries . while US had protests on street due to lack of social support programs.

Well this is an outright lie.

Why are you lying? Actually go cite your fucking source.

WE have seen the studies they've been posted before.

People either continue working and saving or spend more time finding the proper job for them that matches their skills or go back to school to gain more skills THEY DO NTO SIMPLY STOP WORKING.

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And who is going to pay for all that?

I pay enough taxes as it is. In-between income tax, healthcare tax, pension fund, car taxes/tolls, VAT on top of all that later on - 50% of what I earn evaporates right there. You can go your socialist dream crap all you like, but I am not interested paying additional dime from my hard-earned paycheck.

With this coronavirus we ended up doing pretty much what amounts to said universal basic income for all those million+ people on unpaid leave and the result is +10% debt-to-GDP in a matter of 3 months and guess who's going to cover this shit? Me. Finance already starts mentally preparing everyone for extra taxes. It's not sustainable.

Is deficit only okay when it goes to rich peel and industries who then turn around and lay off people, lower wages, and horde money, and buy up own stock, but do not invest in plant and property which would actually create jobs

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I would love it for sure, money taken right from the pocket of the others, so that I can play mmos all days without caring about working
who wouldn't want that?

Money currently is taken from everyone and given to the wealthiest, and to corporations... is it okay to give money to companies but not okay to give money to people??

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Honestly if they just made it to where normal folk don't have to pay all the fucking taxes while rich people just sit around and get richer and richer not paying shit would go a long way I think. Don't get me wrong if I would love a check just showing up in my account but I get the feel that number would just be factored into pricing and suddenly the rich find away to get a chunk of that as well while still not being taxed for it.

It's estimated that the wealthy hide more money than the entire USA economy to avoid taxes.

[Doctor Amadeus]

With the caveat that UBI works, So far where I have heard it tried Norway it seems to be mixed.

[cubby]

350 a week means 1400 euro a month . you can easily survive with that. ofc you wont be able to afford yourself any luxuries but for basic nessesities ? its more then enough . and thats exackly what UBI is supposed to be.

a lot of people have strange ideas regarding UBI - it was never even in theory meant to give you anything more then put roof over your head (in form of rented apartment/room) , enough food to survive (so around 2k calorie a day ) and cheap clothers (possibly fron 2nd hand shops)

while i have suspition that some people belive that UBI will sponsor them their own homes,cars , designer clothes and as much food as they would like.

No one who knows UBI thinks it will sponsor homes/cars/luxury - UBI is universal BASIC income - so thinking you're getting a Porsche and a beachfront condo is pure ignorance (theirs, not yours - to be clear).

UBI has only been played out a few times in recent years/decades, and every time it was canceled or sabotaged before good data could be played out - as @Masark pointed out. While it is decades away, it's very much a conversation - and in many aspects it makes a lot of sense, practically speaking. We will need a lot more automation, but if you think robots are a "song of distant future" - you are wrong. There many aspect of consumerism and manufacturing that are automated, and companies are only ramping up their use.

[Doctor Amadeus]

No one who knows UBI thinks it will sponsor homes/cars/luxury - UBI is universal BASIC income - so thinking you're getting a Porsche and a beachfront condo is pure ignorance (theirs, not yours - to be clear).

UBI has only been played out a few times in recent years/decades, and every time it was canceled or sabotaged before good data could be played out - as @Masark pointed out. While it is decades away, it's very much a conversation - and in many aspects it makes a lot of sense, practically speaking. We will need a lot more automation, but if you think robots are a "song of distant future" - you are wrong. There many aspect of consumerism and manufacturing that are automated, and companies are only ramping up their use.

Yeah I’m with you on this to deny UBI is going to have to come down to basic human rights.

Humans need, not simply want, food, clean drinking water, shelter and medicine period.

To pretend there are enough jobs or without basic resources provided that it won’t lead to crime is idiotic.


You need these things that doesn’t just go away because of what others think you should do with your life.

UBI might be too soon buts we need to have the conversation in all countries.

[cubby]

We invested 3300 per person into companies.... they took the money, lowered wages, laid off people, bought up their own stock.

This cannot be repeated enough - corporations will do what is good for the corporations, not the country (there are some exceptions). It's beyond horrific how much money we gave them, and then they just essentially kept it. And now we're bailing them out again - apologies for the aside, but it's infuriating.

It's estimated that the wealthy hide more money than the entire USA economy to avoid taxes.

Reprehensible - how do we even start to regulate that? I'm just more or less asking the universe here, not necessarily you.

People either continue working and saving or spend more time finding the proper job for them that matches their skills or go back to school to gain more skills THEY DO NTO SIMPLY STOP WORKING.

So, let's move this to the adult table, because the people above are either going to get it or not. We can fight those battles and discuss forward policy at the same time.

It was my understanding that at the "end" of UBI implementation, it would supplement basic income entirely - so that you don't have to work if you're ok with just the basic necessities - essentially an apartment, bus pass, and ramen - if that makes sense (give me some leeway here, lol). And that is you want "more" out of life, or want to pursue a career or whatever, you can - but the key mechanic is that you don't have to if you don't want to.

Thoughts?

[Themius]

This cannot be repeated enough - corporations will do what is good for the corporations, not the country (there are some exceptions). It's beyond horrific how much money we gave them, and then they just essentially kept it. And now we're bailing them out again - apologies for the aside, but it's infuriating.




Reprehensible - how do we even start to regulate that? I'm just more or less asking the universe here, not necessarily you.




So, let's move this to the adult table, because the people above are either going to get it or not. We can fight those battles and discuss forward policy at the same time.

It was my understanding that at the "end" of UBI implementation, it would supplement basic income entirely - so that you don't have to work if you're ok with just the basic necessities - essentially an apartment, bus pass, and ramen - if that makes sense (give me some leeway here, lol). And that is you want "more" out of life, or want to pursue a career or whatever, you can - but the key mechanic is that you don't have to if you don't want to.

Thoughts?

I like this idea, since the government becomes the patron of the people. If that happens you get people being able to shift into new areas or pursue things they want to. The person who wants to be a pianist, but never pursues their dream because it simply wouldn't lead to assured survival, can do that without having to be born into a wealthy family that allows them to seek those endeavours.

It greatly opens up people to enjoy the flexibility to pursue things they want to do, or enjoy doing regardless of money, if they are okay with the bare minimum.

In the end people like to stay busy and keep working, the idea that people suddenly dislike all that if paid money has never been found. Is it such a bad idea if a person dedicates themselves to art, or science while not working as an accountant because they didn't know what else to do to make money? Is the world better or worse off? That's the question I'd want people to consider.

As far as the money that's hidden... we would have to have governments actually pursue it more, we know it happens, the government knows.

[PC2]

I like this idea, since the government becomes the patron of the people. If that happens you get people being able to shift into new areas or pursue things they want to. The person who wants to be a pianist, but never pursues their dream because it simply wouldn't lead to assured survival, can do that without having to be born into a wealthy family that allows them to seek those endeavours.

It greatly opens up people to enjoy the flexibility to pursue things they want to do, or enjoy doing regardless of money, if they are okay with the bare minimum.

In the end people like to stay busy and keep working, the idea that people suddenly dislike all that if paid money has never been found. Is it such a bad idea if a person dedicates themselves to art, or science while not working as an accountant because they didn't know what else to do to make money? Is the world better or worse off? That's the question I'd want people to consider.

As far as the money that's hidden... we would have to have governments actually pursue it more, we know it happens, the government knows.

Sort of, people will always pursue "work" as that is a major part of what gives people dignity and meaning. The conservative misconception is that it always has to be "hard work" in order for it to be a "real job" and I suspect that is just a shitty meme that's leftover from the agricultural and earlier industrial days where you really did have to work your ass off, or potentially die.

The reality though is that there is still a lot shitty jobs in 2020 that have to be done in order to keep civilization running and how fast we get past those jobs depends on how much effort is put into software, robots, and automation.

[Cosmic Janitor]

UBI at the moment only stands a chance to work if you also implement incentives for people to work, somehow manage to regulate the markets to prevent massive inflation and there is a general humanitarian mentality in your population. None of that is even remotely likely in the current US.

Automation has nowhere reached the level where it's feasible over glorified slave labor as we have it today. And it won't reach that level in the next 10 years, most likely not even 20. Anyone who has had the opportunity to design a machine for semi-general use or even just specialized use knows that the effort is far too big to automate everything right now. We can't even do it properly with simple data mangement that atm still requires people to punch in numbers in forms that haven't changed in 30 years.

Something that is more feasible is unemployment pay and welfare as seen in some European countries and even that only works because the majority is still working.