Slice and Dice = just another weakaura on your screen.

[ClassicPeon]

I agree that simple 3 button specs are bad. But SnD will not help at all. We are going to have 100 % uptime on SnD in all fights and it will require absolutely no management to keep up. SnD will not be something that we will notice in our rotation at all. It’s just going to be another GCD every 50 seconds and another weakaura on your screen. Blizzard should make something that actually impacts our gameplay and allow skilled players to get ahead.

I disagree. Its both something you need to save combo points for and something you need to keep an eye on.
Its the same its always been, a maintenence buff, but its better then nothing. Every single step that gets us closer to a place where you can differentiate between people who are good at their class instead of people who are running 0 ranks of infinite stars is a good thing

[Kaver]

I disagree. Its both something you need to save combo points for and something you need to keep an eye on.
Its the same its always been, a maintenence buff, but its better then nothing. Every single step that gets us closer to a place where you can differentiate between people who are good at their class instead of people who are running 0 ranks of infinite stars is a good thing

SnD is only going to differentiate very bad players who don't know how weakauras work.

I the modern addition of WoW we generate a huge amount of combo points so "saving combo points" is not really going to be an issue. And "keeping an eye on" SnD is going to be extremely easy since it's a very long buff that you can easily reapply when you weakaura tells you to. It will not allow good mythic raiders to differentiate themselves in anyway because even very mediocre players are going to "manage" SnD with ease. You can compare it to roll the bones right now but without the aspect of different buffs. If your goal is to just keep the buff up 100 % of the time then it is extremely easy.

SnD is going to be something that very bad players need to manage, but for better players it's just going to be an annoying GCD.

[Saltysquidoon]

Going to take this time to point out that cut to the chase has existed for muti since wrath.
Which means that at whatever point some subjectively believes to be the height of class complexity pre legion (wrath, cata, mop, wod) muti has essentially never been designed to actively maintain SnD. Anybody arguing via an appeal to history has to agree that maintaining snd for muti is bad design.

[ClassicPeon]

SnD is only going to differentiate very bad players who don't know how weakauras work.

I the modern addition of WoW we generate a huge amount of combo points so "saving combo points" is not really going to be an issue. And "keeping an eye on" SnD is going to be extremely easy since it's a very long buff that you can easily reapply when you weakaura tells you to. It will not allow good mythic raiders to differentiate themselves in anyway because even very mediocre players are going to "manage" SnD with ease. You can compare it to roll the bones right now but without the aspect of different buffs. If your goal is to just keep the buff up 100 % of the time then it is extremely easy.

SnD is going to be something that very bad players need to manage, but for better players it's just going to be an annoying GCD.

Its not about it "being an issue" its about small incremental steps towards more complex specs.
This is a step in the right direction

[Kumorii]

For me almost any new ability or mechanic is another WeakAura. Which isn't a bad thing imo.

[ClassicPeon]

Going to take this time to point out that cut to the chase has existed for muti since wrath.
Which means that at whatever point some subjectively believes to be the height of class complexity pre legion (wrath, cata, mop, wod) muti has essentially never been designed to actively maintain SnD. Anybody arguing via an appeal to history has to agree that maintaining snd for muti is bad design.

Your argumentation is extremely bad. You are literally saying that because blizzard made it available as a passive its inherently bad design if it becomes an active maintainable buff.

I dont mean to offend you but that kind of argumentation is absolutely ridiculously bad

[Kaver]

Its not about it "being an issue" its about small incremental steps towards more complex specs.
This is a step in the right direction

For mythic raiders it's not going to add any complexity at all. It's just going to be an annoying GCD to use on pull.

Blizzard should add more mechanics and abilities that allow good players to get ahead. SnD is just going to make the class more confusing for new players.

[Saltysquidoon]

Your argumentation is extremely bad. You are literally saying that because blizzard made it available as a passive its inherently bad design if it becomes an active maintainable buff.

My argument is that the statement "The return of SnD is good because rogues had to maintain SnD during [Wrath/Cata/MoP/WoD] when I subjectively believed classes were more complex and therefore better" is invalid because cut to the chase existed during that period making the appeal to history irreconcilable with the design on alpha.
Note I didn't quote you because I wasn't specifically addressing you, this thread has ten pages of people saying PaSt Is GuD.

My issue with SnD for sub and muti is that they don't interact with it in any way, I actually don't have a problem with it for combat because it has interactivity with RtB.
Specifically, my problem with muti having to maintain SnD is that the spec (being a dot spec) is heavily based around timing which is why blizzard is loath to add too many active abilities to it (I'm looking at you poison bomb). Given I personally would like to see muti have some interesting new skills to fill the giant kingsbane sized hole in the rotation, any new ability that gets added that takes up a GCD means that is less likely.

[Kaver]

For me almost any new ability or mechanic is another WeakAura. Which isn't a bad thing imo.

There can be mechanics in the game which you can actually min-max. In a hunter thread someone mentioned an idea for BM where you would get increased damage the closer you are to your pet. This is a really cool idea in my opinion because it would allow good players to min-max it. BM would still have completely free mobility, but good players would be rewarded for having good positioning throughout a fight. I think we need more mechanics like this. We need more mechanics in the game which raidbots.com cannot simulate properly.

SnD will not require any skill to use and it will not give good players any possibility to get ahead.

[ClassicPeon]

For mythic raiders it's not going to add any complexity at all. It's just going to be an annoying GCD to use on pull.

Blizzard should add more mechanics and abilities that allow good players to get ahead. SnD is just going to make the class more confusing for new players.

Its going to add exactly the same for mythic raiders as it is for everyone else. I'm sorry you cant see that

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There can be mechanics in the game which you can actually min-max. In a hunter thread someone mentioned an idea for BM where you would get increased damage the closer you are to your pet. This is a really cool idea in my opinion because it would allow good players to min-max it. BM would still have completely free mobility, but good players would be rewarded for having good positioning throughout a fight. I think we need more mechanics like this. We need more mechanics in the game which raidbots.com cannot simulate properly.

SnD will not require any skill to use and it will not give good players any possibility to get ahead.

Objectively - this is a false statement

[Blezius]

Premeditation will be NECESSARY with SnD back. Otherwise sub’s openers will feel very clunky and not bursty.

For assassination, i feel like SnD will be really awkward, it’s already slow to get things going, with having to use 5 CPs for SnD it will feel even slower to get rolling. Not sure.

[Kaver]

Its going to add exactly the same for mythic raiders as it is for everyone else. I'm sorry you cant see that

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Objectively - this is a false statement

Ok, I just think we agree to disagree. Without knowing you I suspect we are no really doing the same type of content. I’m in general doing the more challenging part of the game (mythic raiding and high M+ keys) and for me SnD is not going to add any complexity to my gameplay what so ever. I will keep SnD up without even having to think about it. It will be almost a passive buff with the only exception that I need to use a GCD on it. Personally I would much rather have them add something that requires skill (based on my standard) to play with.

However, if you think that SnD is going to enrich your gameplay and give you something extra in your rotation then I’m happy for you. I do acknowledge that Blizzard are making this game for everyone and they also need to add something that create value for the more casual players.

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Objectively - this is a false statement

Of course it is. It’s subjective. In my opinion SnD will require no skill to manage and it wont make much room for min-maxing since it will be extremely easy (in my opinion) to have an uptime of approximately 100 %.

Disclaimer: The above statement is subjective.

[Dalinos]

Ok, I just think we agree to disagree. Without knowing you I suspect we are no really doing the same type of content. I’m in general doing the more challenging part of the game (mythic raiding and high M+ keys) and for me SnD is not going to add any complexity to my gameplay what so ever. I will keep SnD up without even having to think about it. It will be almost a passive buff with the only exception that I need to use a GCD on it. Personally I would much rather have them add something that requires skill (based on my standard) to play with.

However, if you think that SnD is going to enrich your gameplay and give you something extra in your rotation then I’m happy for you. I do acknowledge that Blizzard are making this game for everyone and they also need to add something that create value for the more casual players.

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Of course it is. It’s subjective. In my opinion SnD will require no skill to manage and it wont make much room for min-maxing since it will be extremely easy (in my opinion) to have an uptime of approximately 100 %.

Disclaimer: The above statement is subjective.

I'm not a rogue, I'm a druid, and I'm not feral, I'm Guardian. However, since my char is 16 years old I have played/progressed through the expansions where Guardian and Feral were the same spec (feral), and I have DPS'ed in some cases, in some raids, on some bosses. We used to have a very similar ability to S&D, called Savage Roar. Wasn't attack speed, but flat +40% dmg done, so, super important.

You keep saying how it's just a weak-aura and how 100% uptime is piss easy etc etc. I have a question for you.

Feral Druids (before the split between guardian/feral) had a talent called Omen of Clarity. It was a proc that, when it procced, reduced the energy/rage cost of your next ability by 100%. It exists now in the game as well, only for Feral though (not Guardian), and there's even a talent on live right now that gives Omen of Clarity 2 charges instead of 1. I've done my fair share of hardcore progression, top 500 EU guilds, in the past though, and only as a tank. Did high keys in Legion and just restarted BFA a month ago.

I vividly remember a situation, in Throne of Thunder Heroic 25man (before Mythic even existed)...must've been Twin Consorts, right before Lei-Shen. I had 5 seconds left on Savage Roar, 5 combo points and a full energy bar. I didn't want to leak excess Energy, nor did I want to clip my Savage Roar buff since it had 5 seconds left. So I gambled. I prayed to the RNG gods to give me an Omen of Clarity proc or two, and I went for the Ferocious Bite, nearly emptying my energy bar. 4 seconds left. Shred, 1 CP, 3 seconds left. Shred, 2 CP, 2 seconds left, Omen proc, Shred crit, 4 CP, 1 second left, Omen proc, Shred, 5CP 0 seconds left, refresh Savage Roar full duration as soon as the buff was about to disappear off of my buff list.

The reason I vividly remember this specific scenario, nearly a decade later, is because I also used to think, just like you, that maintenance buffs are boring/cumbersome/a hassle/whatever you choose to name them. But THAT specific event changed my mind forever. The fact that I managed, with good RNG of course, to get an FB in + 5 CP's + savage roar refresh in 5 seconds proved to me that there WAS skill involved when dealing with maintenance buffs.

Bear in mind (no pun intended) that all this was happening when the boss was in a phase that I wasn't tanking. I was still paying attention to mechanics, still paying attention to the other tank and his debuffs so I can go bear form and take over when it was my turn, still being a vigilant tank. Yet, while all this was going on, the above 5-second window of events took place. My question to you, and everyone who calls these maintenance buffs a "chore", or "another weak-aura" is the following:

How can you call them "useless, boring weak-auras" when the above situation is commonplace? (I imagine). I mean, this happened to me, a tank druid who was DPSing for about a minute due to boss tactics/mechanics. I imagine for a full-time DPSer MANY kinds of situations like the one outlined above occur, on a daily basis. @shoegazing would also like your response, since you've been tanking everyone magnificently in this thread.

[ymirsson]

What you describe is not skill. "Hoping for a proc"?

[Kaver]

I'm not a rogue, I'm a druid, and I'm not feral, I'm Guardian. However, since my char is 16 years old I have played/progressed through the expansions where Guardian and Feral were the same spec (feral), and I have DPS'ed in some cases, in some raids, on some bosses. We used to have a very similar ability to S&D, called Savage Roar. Wasn't attack speed, but flat +40% dmg done, so, super important.

You keep saying how it's just a weak-aura and how 100% uptime is piss easy etc etc. I have a question for you.

Feral Druids (before the split between guardian/feral) had a talent called Omen of Clarity. It was a proc that, when it procced, reduced the energy/rage cost of your next ability by 100%. It exists now in the game as well, only for Feral though (not Guardian), and there's even a talent on live right now that gives Omen of Clarity 2 charges instead of 1. I've done my fair share of hardcore progression, top 500 EU guilds, in the past though, and only as a tank. Did high keys in Legion and just restarted BFA a month ago.

I vividly remember a situation, in Throne of Thunder Heroic 25man (before Mythic even existed)...must've been Twin Consorts, right before Lei-Shen. I had 5 seconds left on Savage Roar, 5 combo points and a full energy bar. I didn't want to leak excess Energy, nor did I want to clip my Savage Roar buff since it had 5 seconds left. So I gambled. I prayed to the RNG gods to give me an Omen of Clarity proc or two, and I went for the Ferocious Bite, nearly emptying my energy bar. 4 seconds left. Shred, 1 CP, 3 seconds left. Shred, 2 CP, 2 seconds left, Omen proc, Shred crit, 4 CP, 1 second left, Omen proc, Shred, 5CP 0 seconds left, refresh Savage Roar full duration as soon as the buff was about to disappear off of my buff list.

The reason I vividly remember this specific scenario, nearly a decade later, is because I also used to think, just like you, that maintenance buffs are boring/cumbersome/a hassle/whatever you choose to name them. But THAT specific event changed my mind forever. The fact that I managed, with good RNG of course, to get an FB in + 5 CP's + savage roar refresh in 5 seconds proved to me that there WAS skill involved when dealing with maintenance buffs.

Bear in mind (no pun intended) that all this was happening when the boss was in a phase that I wasn't tanking. I was still paying attention to mechanics, still paying attention to the other tank and his debuffs so I can go bear form and take over when it was my turn, still being a vigilant tank. Yet, while all this was going on, the above 5-second window of events took place. My question to you, and everyone who calls these maintenance buffs a "chore", or "another weak-aura" is the following:

How can you call them "useless, boring weak-auras" when the above situation is commonplace? (I imagine). I mean, this happened to me, a tank druid who was DPSing for about a minute due to boss tactics/mechanics. I imagine for a full-time DPSer MANY kinds of situations like the one outlined above occur, on a daily basis. @shoegazing would also like your response, since you've been tanking everyone magnificently in this thread.

I completely recognize the scenario you describe with Omen above.

However, as I also told Shoegazing, his example from Classic and your example don’t apply to SnD in the current version of WoW. SnD will have no RNG or procs involved. And very important as I also mentioned earlier, is the fact that the modern Rogue is generating a shit-ton of combo points. This is why I say it’s going to be extremely easy to keep a 100 % uptime on SnD because you don’t have to worry about wasting a couple of CPs. You will no be punished in any significant way for “overspending” combo points.

Yours and Shoegazings stories are completely true, but they were based on a different time and different conditions. The way that the Rogue is designed today makes decisions around ressources much less impactful. Keeping an uptime on SnD of 98-100 % is going to be extremely easy and will not require any extra attention (in my opinion).

[Dalinos]

What you describe is not skill. "Hoping for a proc"?

Feral Druid DPS is by definition MUCH more proc based. We have had Seal-Fate baked into the spec since the days of Vanilla (crits on combo-generators generate 2 combo points instead of 1). Simply by that fact, and adding Omen of Clarity on top of it, along with Tiger's Fury (our Thistle Tea) makes Feral not have a set "rotation" like Rogues do. Identifying a window where you can reliably expect an Omen proc IS skill based, since at that specific moment in time Omen hadn't procced in a while, so it was surely about to.

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I completely recognize the scenario you describe with Omen above.

However, as I also told Shoegazing, his example from Classic and your example don’t apply to SnD in the current version of WoW. SnD will have no RNG or procs involved. And very important as I also mentioned earlier, is the fact that the modern Rogue is generating a shit-ton of combo points. This is why I say it’s going to be extremely easy to keep a 100 % uptime on SnD because you don’t have to worry about wasting a couple of CPs. You will no be punished in any significant way for “overspending” combo points.

Yours and Shoegazings stories are completely true, but they were based on a different time and different conditions. The way that the Rogue is designed today makes decisions around ressources much less impactful. Keeping an uptime on SnD of 98-100 % is going to be extremely easy and will not require any extra attention (in my opinion).

So what you're basicly saying is that SND/Savage Roar/Maintenance buffs WERE skill-related in the past (Shoegazing examples from Classic, my example from MOP), but in today's iteration of the game they wouldn't be? Am I understanding you correctly?

If that is the case, then shouldn't they BECOME skill-based again? In order to make them more fun/interactive? Maybe they could make S&D give energy back when it is refreshed with 2 seconds or less. Reward the players who don't clip their S&D buff, but maximize it instead. Or or or maybe they could make S&D do damage based on the duration left on the buff when it is re-applied? Like, it would do 10k dmg if you refresh it with 10 sec remaining, 9k with 9 sec remaining etc? (numbers are arbitrary, just an example). OR, they could even make it stack with diminishing returns :O :O :O ?

[ymirsson]

Does OoC has an increasing proc chance when it doesn't procced a while or a internal CD? If it does not, that it will proc in a specific short frame of time would be a wild guess to make.

[Dalinos]

Does OoC has an increasing proc chance when it doesn't procced a while or a internal CD? If it does not, that it will proc in a specific short frame of time would be a wild guess to make.

Dunno about today, but in MOP, OoC had no Internal Cooldown (since it could chain-proc) but it did have a set amount of procs per minute.

[Kaver]

Feral Druid DPS is by definition MUCH more proc based. We have had Seal-Fate baked into the spec since the days of Vanilla (crits on combo-generators generate 2 combo points instead of 1). Simply by that fact, and adding Omen of Clarity on top of it, along with Tiger's Fury (our Thistle Tea) makes Feral not have a set "rotation" like Rogues do. Identifying a window where you can reliably expect an Omen proc IS skill based, since at that specific moment in time Omen hadn't procced in a while, so it was surely about to.

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So what you're basicly saying is that SND/Savage Roar/Maintenance buffs WERE skill-related in the past (Shoegazing examples from Classic, my example from MOP), but in today's iteration of the game they wouldn't be? Am I understanding you correctly?

If that is the case, then shouldn't they BECOME skill-based again? In order to make them more fun/interactive? Maybe they could make S&D give energy back when it is refreshed with 2 seconds or less. Reward the players who don't clip their S&D buff, but maximize it instead. Or or or maybe they could make S&D do damage based on the duration left on the buff when it is re-applied? Like, it would do 10k dmg if you refresh it with 10 sec remaining, 9k with 9 sec remaining etc? (numbers are arbitrary, just an example). OR, they could even make it stack with diminishing returns :O :O :O ?

Just to clarify (so this don’t get messy), I’m only saying that SnD specifically won’t be engaging in any way due to the way the Rogue is currently designed in relation to CP generation. An Outlaw Rogue for example can basically generate generate 5 CPs in 1-2 secs which makes the use of CPs much less impactful than it was in e.g. Classic.

This might also be true for other specs in the game with certain maintenance buffs, but just to clarify: I have NOT said that

There are many ways Blizzard could make SnD more interesting and actively engaging.

[shoegazing]

SnD will not require any skill to use and it will not give good players any possibility to get ahead.

Is this the purpose of every ability in the spellbook, the sole standard that each ability has to meet to justify its place in the kit?