Rightful orcish territory

[ButterBeast]

Alliance players are easy to bait i see.

[LanToaster]

Varian gave it back to Vol'jin, not the orcs. And technically (according to Greengrim's logic) the orcs didn't conquer anything, they just live there by the mercy of Varian. LoL what a loosers

Well, and Voljin is the WarChief of the horde at that time, so, its the Orcs. If you want to talk Technicallities like that, I think we need a bit more Source material than is aviable. But its safe to Assume that VolJin didnt grab the Land of the Orcs for himself.

But while the Orcs conquered their lands, I´m sure if the Alliance would not have so many "Lets be Friends" People, the Orcs would not really live as Faction/Race on Azeroth anymore. Sure the War might hurt the Alliance alot, but if we take the (known) war assets at any given time, the Alliance should have been able wo get rid of the Horde at almost any time in the Storyline.

[justandulas]

The true horde doesn’t ask for territory. They take it by conquest

[AcidicSyn]

But if you're artificially created are you really even native? The titans could've left titanforged on dozens of worlds that had old gods who eventually succumbed to the curse of flesh and became mortal beings. The eredar are the only playable race with no titanic origin, and now knowing of Argus that even brings that into question.

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Would trolls have come to be if the Titans didn't topple the Black Empire, accidentally create the Well of Eternity, and then create the Emerald Dream? It took a mere few thousand years for native life on Azeroth to evolve from the kind of small animals that could exist beneath the Black Empire's notice to developing sentience. That took 60ish million years irl. No way you can argue there wasn't Titanic influence on all Azerothian races.

Hmm, you know from that perspective you have a point. In so far as without the black empire being toppled the trolls couldn't have evolved. However, they didn't need the well of eternity or any other titan influence as they are natural denizens of Azeroth. However, in so far as the "Rightful Territory" argument goes. All of the posters who do not wish to accept the right of conquest would have to concede that the trolls are the real "Heirs of Azeroth" by the same logic they're using.

[Unholyground]

Orcs are from Draenor. They have no rightful territory on Azeroth.

Well it is theirs now, not rightful but it beats mutating in outlands lol.

[AcidicSyn]

You don't understand the definition of rightful.

They have no rights to any land on Azeroth, especially not land that has been inhabited by actual denizens native to Azeroth for thousands of years. The only land they have rights to is on Draenor.

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Well, maybe they shouldn't have blown up their planet by opening portals to invade other worlds then... Maybe they should have been happy with the one they had and not made a pact with the Legion and drank the obviously-a-bad-idea demon blood. They have no one to blame for that but themselves.

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Trolls would have never come to be without the Titans defeating the Black Empire, and then seeding life on Azeroth, which then had it's evolution accelerated by the Well of Eternity. They evolved from that seeded life, they did not come about naturally.


All life on Azeroth, be they curse of flesh humans/dwarves/gnomes, or trolls, tauren, and elves, all owe their existence to the Titans...

And technically the Titanforged races' ancestors were on Azeroth before the trolls were... So... An argument can be made that they have a stronger claim than the trolls do.

Was this a retcon or do I need to re-brush up on my lore. The way I remember it, the Trolls were the only race that we NOT of the titans. I concede that without the Black Empires removal they would not have been able to evolve as they did, but when did this titans seeded *ALL* life on Azeroth become a thing?

[Grazrug]

Gazlowe stopped being neutral. That means gadgetzan is horde territory now.

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Minus orcs all horde races are native to azeroth. This rightful claim bullshit needs to stop.

[Greengrim]

Yea, thats what I´ve thought aswell, thats how having land "Rightfully" works. You Conquer it, and after some time its "Just yours", until someone else Conquers it.

Not "after some time" really. The land becomes yours the moment you conquer it. That's exactly how conquering works.

[Ielenia]

Why Feathermoon Island and Gadgetzan?

It's not even Gadgetzan. The spot on the map marked on Tanaris is the Bronze Dragonflight cave.

But, on topic:

Thoughts?

No, Ashenvale and Darkshore are not "rightful orc territory". It's the night elves'. Moonglade is also not "rightful orc territory". Neither is Feathermoon Island.

I would guess you're talking about "right of conquest", but the orcs never conquered Feathermoon Island, Gadgetzan or Moonglade. Ashenvale and Darkshore, I believe, were retaken by the Alliance. Or at least Darkshore. And on top of that, when we're talking about "right of conquest", there is no such thing as "rightful territory" because conquest means taking territory by force and it has nothing to do with it being "rightful orc territory".

On the flip-side, Ashenvale, for example, is "rightful NIGHT ELF territory" because those are their sacred forests.

You basically marked some random spots on the map and went "me orc, me like, me take".

[matrix123mko]

exactly how many orc generations have to born on azeroth to stop being considered aliens?

Depends when first orc puts Alliance tabard on himself.

[LanToaster]

Not "after some time" really. The land becomes yours the moment you conquer it. That's exactly how conquering works.

Nah, Immediatly after you conquer it, the "Old owners", and almost any other will feel, they are still the Rightfull owner and want it back.

Unless you keep it for an Extended Period of time, I would say its still Contested Territory.

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You basically marked some random spots on the map and went "me orc, me like, me take".

Well, thats exactly how Orcs function. *laughs* So, why not?

[AcidicSyn]

Nah, Immediatly after you conquer it, the "Old owners", and almost any other will feel, they are still the Rightfull owner and want it back.

Unless you keep it for an Extended Period of time, I would say its still Contested Territory.

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Well, thats exactly how Orcs function. *laughs* So, why not?

This is true, and is also why Conquerors tend to try and exterminate the previous holders after conquering a region. Even in our own earths history newly crowned kings/sultans/emperors/what-have-you have repeatedly murdered the sons and heirs of former rulers in order to eliminate the possibility of an uprising.

Hell Suleimans father murdered something like 5 of his other sons before handing the kingdom to Suleiman purely to remove the possibility of civil war breaking out when he passed over the right of succession, that was an effing tradition, not even a conquest and murdering other contenders for the throne was still a thing.

In fact, the only time you really see former leaders and their heirs not being murdered is when they become vassal states instead, as the Romans and Persians (the latter especially) tended to do.

Orcs aren't big on Vassals though, so into the fire the conquered rulers go.

[Minikin]

Nah, I'm not refering to OP's map, I was just a bit surprised to see so many "orcs are not from Azeroth so no land is rightfully theirs" as this statement was only valid at the point the orcs arrived on Azeroth. The moment they started conquering lands that fact changed, and the conquered lands became rightfully theirs.

they arent wrong though. they kept none of the lands they conquered in the initial invasion cuz they lost at lordearon. And then settled in durotar. The horde advance in the war of thorns was concluded in darkshore with the alliance winning it back. The only place they have actual claim to is durotar and part of barrens.

But its not even as simple as that, given that the world is divided into faction alliances but under constant attack from different monsters/threats.

[Schattenlied]

Was this a retcon or do I need to re-brush up on my lore. The way I remember it, the Trolls were the only race that we NOT of the titans. I concede that without the Black Empires removal they would not have been able to evolve as they did, but when did this titans seeded *ALL* life on Azeroth become a thing?

Chronicles vol.1 states that the elementals were the only inhabitants on Azeroth before the Old Gods showed up and created the n'raqu and aqir. They seeded life onto Azeroth because there was no life on Azeroth after the Black Empire was felled.

[Minikin]

Gazlowe stopped being neutral. That means gadgetzan is horde territory now.

Gee I wonder why when I go to Gadgetzan it says "Contested Territory".

[Manariel]

To paraphrase the words of a great Troll Hero, the orc - and the Horde - rightful's land can be anywhere. As long as they stay there forever. Because we'll bury them there...

[AcidicSyn]

Chronicles vol.1 states that the elementals were the only inhabitants on Azeroth before the Old Gods showed up and created the n'raqu and aqir. They seeded life onto Azeroth because there was no life on Azeroth after the Black Empire was felled.

Well shit, there you go then.

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Gee I wonder why when I go to Gadgetzan it says "Contested Territory".

For the same reason my alt still gets quests from Garrosh and Vol'jin.

[Devonitar]

Gazlowe stopped being neutral. That means gadgetzan is horde territory now.

Explain the logic, please.

[Tuor]

Minus orcs all horde races are native to azeroth. This rightful claim bullshit needs to stop.

I think you might have missed samething, this thread is not about the Horde, but about the Orcs... I'll assume the bolded part in the quote as your answer to the thread.

[omeomorfismo]

Chronicles vol.1 states that the elementals were the only inhabitants on Azeroth before the Old Gods showed up and created the n'raqu and aqir. They seeded life onto Azeroth because there was no life on Azeroth after the Black Empire was felled.

it even stated that protodragons/troll/goblins are basically evoluted elements....