So, you've admitted it is a sacred place, meaning MORE significant that the outlying territories that surround it.
Except that it is. And I am positive every single tauren who thought "You know what a good idea would be? Let's bring a bunch of dead former scourge into the Horde." In BFA, I'm sure there is quite a bit of tension now between the Horde and the Forsaken, and that's likely why, at least in the writers' vision, it would require Calia Menethil to hold them together and give them the queen they deserve.No, it doesn't end here, as i said he played a key role in the Horde becoming more powerful and more aggressive by accepting the Forsaken.
You haven't been playing with a full deck so far, so I suppose now is when you want to complain that I called something you said contrary....Where did i say the contrary?
And YOU have missed the part where the Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0 was about to commence, where earlier, she was made warchief because a malevolent deity (Mue'zala) posing as a loa brought her to ascension, and I'm sure if the Horde knew that then, she would still be nothing. You missed the part of all the mutinies that sprung up around her, because she's a shitbag of a leader. Baine took her weapon against the Proudmoores and delivered him back to his sister. That sounds to me like the Horde did not support her the way they would have Thrall or even Garrosh.You missed the part where the Horde supported her?
Taking the coward's way out?Take it down a notch, or i'm done with you.
This wouldn't be like that if you spent less time doubling down on stupid, and insulting my intelligence and knowledge of lore and battlefield tactics.The way you are constantly insulting shows how much you are in the wrong and have no argument.
Of course you would go to that argument when you're losing.Why are you even talking about geography here? Why are you constantly moving the goalpost?
What, by disagreeing with you? By pointing out the Horde under Sylvanas is honorless and cowardly? By pointing out that you've been wrong about military tactics? By what measure. So far, all you've said is "The Night elves are weak, and deserved it." That is the flimsiest justification for attacking people without warning or reason.You are legitimizing a Horde invasion on Elven territory now?
I don't like her. I hope to see her die in the Shadowlands so Shandris Feathermoon can assume leadership. That said, she is not the one at fault for Sylvanas being a coward and blitzkrieging the Night elves. It is neither brave nor honorable to launch attacks during times of non-aggression, with superior numbers, against unsuspecting non-combatants. That is why the Horde turned on Sylvanas with such incredible numbers.No wonder why you love Tyrande so much. You love the way she submits.
To be honest, I wouldn't either. The place was populated with several times more Naga than night elves and orcs combined. It was a pretty non-essential land. They would never have done the same for Mount Hyjal, Moonglade or any other meaningful area, but if they managed to fall, night elves are some pretty vengeful and unforgiving people.Night elves were their own faction. You know nothing about power lvl, and Tyrande never showed up to defend Azshara except once.
More on this in a bit.With such weakness and submission why would the Horde stop their aggression???
They weren't relevant to your point. You made the initial argument about something Garrosh did, and then made it seem like Sylvanas was just taking Garrosh's plan and bringing it full circle. She wasn't. Her plan depended on the Night elves being caught offguard, because if they knew in advance the Horde was coming, the battle for Darkshore would have just been the battle for Ashenvale, Teldrassil would still be there, and Sylvanas would have been mauled by Malfurion, and Saurfang would likely have been one of the first major casualties.So you decide now what part of the lore suits you?
Again, this is incorrect. The Horde canonically withdraws from Ashenvale in order to head due south to the Barrens to fight off the encroaching Alliance forces, because the tactic that would have happened would have been the Alliance takes the Crossroads, cutting Thunder buff off from Orgrimmar, and Mulgore would have been attacked, and likely razed, since the Alliance would have deployed the Skyfire to nuke Thunder Bluff from the skies.The BFA stories are completely relevant here as it shows that the Horde never left Ashenvale despite the treaty Tyrande signed.
Godwin's law only applies when there is no correlation to the subject at hand. I bet you didn't know that, but, if you prefer.... the attack on Pearl Harbor was totally justified, because the stupid Americans weren't ready, were caught completely off guard, and that's the Americans' fault, not the Japanese's fault. To be perfectly honest, it turns out that might be more relevant than the reasoning behind the Holocaust, because that attack mirrors the attack on Ashenvale and Darkshore in every way that matters.Godwin's law. You really have no argument except insults, and making comparison with Hitler?
Whatever dude. That's just victim blaming. And, no, the Horde wasn't constantly attacking Ashenvale. Just because you see it happening in the land as you fly over it, that only means the area is not instanced to the point of the questlines you're currently at. Come on, you know better than that.Tyrande barely fought for her people despite the constant Horde invasions.
As memory serves, she had just returned from the War against the Legion. She wasn't bolstering the Night elves up with false hopes and unfounded promises about Ashenvale. She knew if the Legion wasn't defeated, the idea that the Horde might invade Ashenvale would be as a petty squabble by which invading Legion forces would turn both sides into cinders.She's responsible for them getting confident.
And she does... almost single-handedly. She pulls off the victory at the retaking of Darkshore and boots the Horde out of Darkshore, and still manages to do so while being outnumbered, because now she isn't taking prisoners, so, good job on that.If she can't defend her territory, then let someone else do the job.
Demons are endless. There will always be more imps, felhunters, succubi, felguards and the like, and as long as the satyrs are still there summoning them, those forces will be endless.And i'm not, some remnant of demons who got defeated long ago vs the Horde (most powerful organization on Azeroth) and you really think those few demons are a threat?
So, there are no more night elves?? They are diminished in numbers, sure, but mostly dead? No.Guess who ended up genociding the night elves btw.
The battle of Darkshore? The one where Maiev leads the Alliance to defeat Sira, and hence, kick the Horde out of Darkshore? Now, I know you see the back and forth every single other cycle, but seriously, how many times do we have to kill bosses in this game before the game decides that the game's history declares that creature or being dead? So, let's see where the Blizzard team stands on this issue....No the Horde won.
https://twitter.com/wowhead/status/1...og%20%E2%80%A6
Apply napalm to the burned area. And don't act so surprised about this. Remember the mutinies and back-door dealings happening behind Sylvanas' back? Those types of things are what causes military victories to be denied to superior forces in real life, in fantasy stories, and in video games a plenty. WoW is not somehow different in that respect. And I know you'll throw that whole "Godwin's Law" shit out there when I say this, but, the Nazis didn't have WW2 in the bag from the start. A lot of Hitler's military commanders did not approve of his military tactics or directives, and that is not limited to the Holocaust. He had several assassination plots planned on him, and the one that nearly succeeded, which would have been carried out by the Desert Fox himself, Erwin Rommel was the one that convinced Hitler he was in serious danger of being deposed as a leader. When the Russians had stormed Berlin, there is a lot of evidence that suggests the German forces withdrew from Berlin and let it happen. That is a real world example of how bad leaders end up getting iced by their own venom.
What I linked above tells me you're wrong. You can keep doubling down on this stupid position, but when you do, remember that the dev team says you're full of shit, not me.They exterminated the Night elves, getting rid of them for good.
You think it's over? Tyrande is not just rolling over and playing dead. She refused to sign any peace treaty with the Horde. And I know the sort of person she became. Even with it being signed in Sylvanas' blood, that doesn't martter. The horde has made a greater enemy of her than they have of even Genn Greymane. She will be the Alliance's warmonger, eager to kill the horde wherever it is, and with her new powers, that will not be much of a challenge for her.The fact that they won an irrelevant battle (hence why they used undead night elves to defend it) to win a blighted sh*thole where only undeads could live won't change that.
The Horde doesn't even have a warchief, now. If you think the Chieftain council, which has such people on it as Baine Bloodhoof, Thrall, son of Durotan, Lor'themar Theron and First Arcanist Thalyssra on it will be eager to wage war against the Alliance, you're out of your damn mind.The Horde got the rest of Kalimdor now.
It's almost like you never played classic. the felwood was not the place to go for easy victories. Sure, there were other areas more dangerous, but not many. After the Cataclysm, its threat level bumped down a little to reflect that the area was recovering, but it still has demons in it. And you know what else... the area also has goblins in it. Guess which ones are more of a pain in the ass? It's not the goblins. They are a mere inconvenience. The only thing the goblins there have the luxury of over the demons there is that the goblins would team up with the night elves there to kill the demons, the demons would not align themselves with either side, meaning they have 2 enemies that would come after them as opposed to one.My point is that felwood isn't a threat like you claim it is. Play wc3, he defeated the big demon here and says that the job is done.
I thought I went on record saying I was on Illidan's side on this? But it really doesn't matter what i think. But then, this same thing was echoed from Altruis the Sufferer, that Illidan has become the thing he had vowed to oppose, and I know you can't put yourself in their position to see what the real problem is, but let's say Illidan managed to single-handedly defeat the Burning Legion in Legion, so what then? There is plenty of reason to believe that, with all other foes exausted, Illidan would have turned his attention to the subversion of Azeroth, as its new ruler. that's what demons are known for doing. He created suspicion that is not unfounded amongst the most ancient race of sophisticated, and until recently, biologically immortal elves, whom had already done battle with the Burning legion twice, and both victories came at high costs, so, why would they support one demon in favor of another? Should you try to answer that, do it from the perspective of a night elf and not from a third person observer that hates night elves.Yes? He just inflicted a huge defeat to the Legion why would you ban him in a middle of a Legion invasion where Azeroth is on the verge of getting destroyed, especially knowing that he could side with the Legion? That's the most stupid decision ever made.
You're not my real dad. I'll do what I want. It's not my fault I have to go to real life analogies to demonstrate you're wrong. And you've not been able to demonstrate that I was wrong, only use some retarded law some dipshit came up with as a zero tolerance shit down that doesn't take into account that the situation might actually be similar or congruent in some way. The true purpose of "Godwin's Law" was to keep mental deficients from accusing one side of being a Nazi with no proof or evidence.No it isn't and drop the irl analogies for the last time.
It's not the only time. Vol'jin didn't allow that shit either. When Garrosh tried it, the Horde turned on him. When Sylvanas tried it, the Horde, including the Forsaken, turned on her. Under the Chieftain council, those ways will not be the way of the Horde for the forseeable future. Where is your god, now?Horde was created to conquer and genocide. The ONLY moment they stopped doing this was with Thrall's Horde (let's not mention grom).
That's interesting. You just said the treaty wasn't even signed by Tyrande. It was signed by Varian Wrynn. To that end, what that tells me is, she didn't expect it to last forever, and that one day, Azshara would be strip-mined and no longer able to support trees, and hence, the Lumber would be a stopgap. Since you really haven't demonstrated to me any knowledge of the purpose of peace treaties yet, one of the tertiaries involved with the King of Stormwind signing a peace treaty is the promise that, if the other signatory breechs the treaty, that the alliance will go to war with them. Anduin failed to uphold his father's treaty, and, it doesn't matter that Anduin didn't sign it. As the scion of the King of Stormwind, he is still bound by that treaty. It was his malfeasance that brought the invasion of Darkshore to the place it did."Varian and I spoke at length about the price of peace before his decision here today. I am willing to allow the Horde the use of Azshara's lumber if they abandon Ashenvale for good. Knowing the way that goblins chew through resources, we will see how long that will sustain them."
She literally expects Horde to run out of resources, therefore she knows that the treaty she just signed was bullshit.
So, I must thank you for calling that to my attention, because now I understand why, when Maiev Shadowsong went before Anduin to tell him how the retaking of Darkshore would have to go, and he said "he promises by the end of the war, Darkshore will be returned to the night elves" and she told him she would not wait for the little lion to get his priorities in order, Genn Greymane went with us, and aided in the retaking of Darkshore. I know there are a lot of people who think Genn Greymane sucks as a character because he's a warmonger, and I say you're all wrong, and he is playing out his part in World of WARcraft, it now makes sense. Genn would have been present during the signing of this treaty. When Anduin didn't assemble the 7th legion to go kick the shit out of the Horde, Genn knew that was wrong, and knows that is not what Varian Wrynn would have done. And years go by, not a single peep out of the Horde, presumably because they had bigger fish to fry, and then one day they are full-scale assaulting an unsuspecting Astranaar.
And if you're right, and the Horde was meant to be nothing more than a bunch of genocidal maniacs, then I say, with that being the case, I no longer feel bad for what is happening canonically in the alternate world of Draenor to those orcs. And to honest, we;ve only heard one side of the story, but that makes my mind up for me, and #YrelDidNothingWrong. Those shit-skins deserve it.
- - - Updated - - -
Sacred areas are more important than capital cities. It was thus, more important to keep the tree and the new well out of the hands of anyone else. I am still of the position that there was not a single area of land more important to the Night elves than right there at the peak of Mt. Hyjal.
This guy gets it....Yes, he played part in Forsaken joining the Horde. It is also likely the last thing he did only for the Horde. All his future involvements are to Cenarion Circle. You know, you can also say that Malfurion made Alliance stronger because he and his druids helped worgen to join the Alliance, but it does not make Malfurion alliance only. The fact that Hamuul stop contributed to the Horde since classic wow does not make him really important figure amongs Horde. Right now, he is important neutral character of Horde origin and ties to the Horde.
And with a really good grasp on geopolitical timelines, military tactics and game lore to boot. This guy really gets it!!!Well, you actually didn't, but you are messing up with this quite a lot. Let's make a clear timeline of these events:
- WoW Classic to WoW cata: Azshara is mostly barren unpopulated place. There is minor elven settlement, there is minor orcish settlement, but both factions lack any significant stronghold in the area. Most inhabitants of Azshara are naga, murlocs, fulborg, satyr and highborne ghosts and wildlife. Aside from history and the fact that region is full of ancient elven ruins, elves does not seem to value the region much.
- WoW cata: Horde began their invasion of the land. It is logical, because Azshara is at the doorstep of their capital. The region can provide them with lumber and hunting game, which is both very valuable resources for the Horde at the time. It is also way more attractive target, since kaldorei presence here is way lesser than in other parts of Kalimdor. Alliance presence is now way greater than it was in years past (it is mostly made up by Highborne spellcasters who only recently rejoined the elves and thus they are the group who is somewhat interested in the region, given their history) and elves fought to defend the land. Since Tyrande is the commander of Sentinels, it is clear that she cares about Azshara at the time of attack and is willing to defend it. You are wrong to claim that she abandons it while it could be still considered her territory. Elves are defeated, since they face combined might of the Horde, mostly orcs and goblin, and they defend it without any other reinforcements from Alliance. It is also safe to speculate that they decided to bolster their defenses in Ashenvale, which has far more importance for them than Azshara ever would have. That is in fact tactical decision, to pull back your forces to contribute to more important battles.
- WoW MoP: at the end of the expansion, Garrosh is defeated and we see peace talks. Now, if we stick that each expansion is worth 2 years of time on Azeroth, Azshara has been in Horde hands for 4 years now (from the beginning to cata to end of MoP). Even before that time, there almost no elves living there. On the Alliance, there are likely very elves who could call Azshara their home, since many of such elves were killed by the Horde during their invasion of the land. You can't say Tyrande abandoned the land which does not belong to her at the time.
Also a good call. A lot of the reason I am against the Horde as much as I am, it mostly is because their sense of what they thing "honor" is, well, it's entirely bullshit to me.Well, it also showed us that Horde is in fact group of easily manipulated individuals who easily forgets that the other faction does not want to kill them, but is willing to work with them instead. Sure, Alliance is not innocent, but in the larger scope, it is Alliance who is constantly willing to move on past their hatred in the name of greater good, while Horde is constantly breaking peace treaties and armistices because they are too paranoid and are in fear that Alliance will crush them.
You've just highlighted to me why the phrase "Lok'tar Ogar" means jack shit to me. Well-played, sir.That usually leads to the conlusion, that in the end, Horde is crushed, because they are not unitied enough to finish the job they started. In the end, Horde is not really strong. They are only successful when they are fighting greater threat alongside the Alliance, or when they are doing suprise attacks on unsuspecting and outnumbered targets, or when tehy are deploying tactics condemned even by them (e.g using a blight). Nothing really spectacular.
I feel like you just dropped the mic for me. Thanks, btw, whether you meant ot do it or not.Well, geography is pretty crucial here to understand the whole conflict.
- Horde (Thrall) made a pretty big mistake in chosing the place for their new Capital. To build a city in barren wasteland with almost no resources, which is bordering a territory of another ancient race is pretty stupid and it started most of the problems Horde had.
- Since Horde was in shortage of supplies, they had two options: to die or to get some. Well, Horde had access to shamans and druids, so they could easily utilize their powers to make their environment more rewarding, but they choose to invade ancestral home of people who let them settle as their neighbours.
- From the Horde perspective, the invasion of Azshara and Ashenvale was needed to sustain them. It was narrative which Garroshed pushed and it was what made him popular amongs orcs. Regrowing barrens would not earn him credit amongs orcs who can't stay idle without killing something every month.
- From Horde perspective, it was also logical to secure lands bordering with their territory. That's why they invade the elves. They succeed in Azshara, where the elven presence was not really numerous. They failed to conquer Ashenvale. They had some wins in aftermath of Cataclysm, while elves were occupied with natural disasters in Darkshore (huge huricane which was about to tear the land apart) Ashenvale (erupting volcano) and Hyjal (emergance of Ragnaros, threatening to burn the World Tree). So instead of taking care of the damage caused by Cataclysm, Horde choose to attack elves who are actually dealing with world ending threats. They choose to corrupt the Heart of Forest, basicly tainting the land with dark magic. In the end, elves managed to cleanse the Heart of Forest and retake most of Ashenvale and drive the Horde back and continue their offensive in Stonetalon Mountains.
The last time Azshara was significant was 10,000 years ago. It served as a battlefield for the Night elves and other denizens of Azeroth to stage a battle that put Tichondrius on ice for thousands of years. And it seems to me, Tyrande has entirely lost her patience with the Horde. That is a very strange thing, too, considering that the long-lived night elves have always known time is on their side. The only race of beings who can defy this thought process now is the Draenei, and they are close allies with one another.That is your interpretation. You can also say that Tyrande choose to defend Azshara when it was relevant, and chose to leave it when it lost it's worth after several years of goblin abuse.
Genn Greymane does this a lot, as well. Love him or hate him, he is a man who leads from the front, which is why, for a worgen of his age, he's a bad ass.Wrong. Tyrande is the leader of Sentinels and Sisterhood of Elune. You can always see Sentinels defending elven lands and even priestesses are present most of time, if not on the battlefield, they are tending to the survivors. Tyrande can't be present herself in every battle, and it would be stupid for her to do so, since she would expose herself and let herself killed. Also, we have seen no other faction leader to be present in most battles personally. The only one who is actually doing something close to it is Jaina in BfA.
And there you have it. And one could say that no one is particularly surprised, either. When you do cheap tactics and play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. The Horde is just outmatched.Wrong. Horde lost Darkshore following Warfront. It was not entirely blighted, Forsaken were in process of blighting it, which night elves interrupted and regrew the shore, so right now, it is not blighted land to begin with. It is confirmed in canon. What is not confirmed however is the other territorial gains of the Horde. We can speculate if the Ashenvale is in the hands of Horde or not, it is not confirmed who owns the land. Clearly Horde is not owning Moonglade, Felwood, Winterspring or Hyjal either, so stop claiming that Horde runs all of Kalimdor. They certainly don't.
That is actually a very interesting perspective to have, and it makes a lot of sense. A push for a short term victory rarely leads to a long haul win.It is also reason why Horde only wins few battles, but never the whole war. They lack vision. Thrall had some, and as soon as he left, Horde lost it's purpose and returned to their dark roots. That means they are inevitably destined to loose. The gameplay reasons are the most obvious here - you can't erase Alliance faction from the game, so the conqueror narrative for the Horde is always going to fail.
I want you to read toward the end of my last post. It was never Tyrande's hand that signed the peace treaty, it was Varian's. That explains why the Alliance stopped pushing forward from Duskwallow Marsh. That treaty covered hostilities in Kalimdor, including the Alliance encroachment into the Barrens, which is canonically shown to have happened as a response to the Horde's initial attempts into Ashenvale. That said, the Horde was withdrawing to deal with that problem when the treaty was signed.She literally admits that Azshara is no longer viable source of resources and will soon be depleted. Now, should you care about such territory, especially while it is not that important for your race anyway? Or should you care more about lush forests of Ashenvale, who are center of your culture, has been home to your race for millenia and it is till region rich on resources? What Tyrande did here can be considered pretty nasty diplomatic move against the Horde, since they officially gives them territory.
Concerning what I have bolded, could you point me in the direction of the BFA Novels you speak of? I'm not doubting your claim, I just think you've seen something I haven't, and I would be interested in reading for myself.That alone denies further opposition from the Horde side that negotiations are unfair for them, but the land is not that valuable. She also got Horde removed from Ashenvale, which is again hinted in BfA novellas.
That should be a fairly interesting read....There is a line implying Horde is entering forest again after few years. Also, Silverwind Refuge (which was overrun by Horde in cata) is shown to be in elven hands at the beginning of novellas, so it also indicates that Horde was not present in the region actually.
Exactly what I tried saying all along.If the Horde would uphold the honor they are always talking about, this treaty would be clear win for night elves and Tyrande would rid the Ashenvale of orcs for good. It turned out that Horde is not about to uphold any promise they make and their words are basicly meaningless. That does not prove Tyrande incompetent, it proves Horde to not to be trusted anymore.
- - - Updated - - -
I don't think that you're right here. Shandris is not a diplomatic dummy. Jarod is, and not because he is a dummy.... he doesn't want to lead. Making people lead when they do not want to be is a very counterproductive thing to do.
- - - Updated - - -
Here is something I don't understand. Why is everyone propping up Christie Golden as some sort of great story writer? Now don't get me wrong, her writing form is fine. She does a good enough job getting the point across, but she isn't really that great at creating a believable story concerning the world of Azeroth. She could be a fair writer for a geopolitical-based story, but one that involves things like military tactics, martial prowess, and separating herself from those she writes about make many of her books lackluster in my opinion.And also yeah, seems like because blizzard doesnt know what they want to do with characters in the long run. So they hype 3 characters and leave the rest alone, because its also a matter of time and expertise. It looks as if the writers who have experience like chrystie golden or others,
Maybe that answers my question. I don't know if the dev team give her creative or artistic license, but if she has an idea, but is told to do something where she starts reading back what she has written and is like, "That's the most retarded thing I've ever wrote!!!" then I get it. The mistake then is less Christie Golden's, and entire their fault because expecting Christie Golden to polish a turd and get a shining example of fantasy game lore in print is as dumb as trying to pick up a turd by its clean end.who are supposed to assist the lore devs (affrisiabi and steve) , are just tired in telling the devs that something doesnt work. And right now they just do whatever the devs tell them to do and knod yes all the time.