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  1. #741
    Herald of the Titans Tuor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    After 10,000 years almost all of the playable night elves developed a Druidic-style culture!
    It isn't just that. The NElfs we play in-game are the ones, non-highborne, that lived under the highborne rule, and actually have always been tied more to Druidic knowledge then arcane.

    They haven't been arcane users before, and they shouldn't now.

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    It isn't just that. The NElfs we play in-game are the ones, non-highborne, that lived under the highborne rule, and actually have always been tied more to Druidic knowledge then arcane.

    They haven't been arcane users before, and they shouldn't now.
    that's not technically correct either.

    Most kaldorei except for most of the Highborne still revered the wilds.. but all night elves were wielding the arcane, they were learning spell work alongside reading and writing - this doesn't mean all were full mages, or Moonguard - but kaldorei arcana in that era is way more advanced and organised than it is in any kingdom, if you take the lore adjectives used, it makes you think it dwarved those including the Kirin'tor - leading you can assume that what the night elves considered a mage is not quite the same today - I can imagine them scoffing at current magisters and the works they do as really minor - they were doing great wonders -

    So they weren't tied more to druidic knowledge, revering the wilds doesn't mean you are tied more to druidic knowledge. Cenarius says the night elves had abandoned the forest ways , and the book mentions a few druid types some in tree form so long they'd forgotten they were night elves. The way the story is mapped also makes sense. You have to understand , night elves naturally love the arcane, and naturally drawn to it, they also love nature too, but for a previously primitive culture, with a very beautiful and charismatic Queen that pushes the boundaries and produces such wonders and conveniences, the arcane growth out strips nature and the arcane solves and simplifies life in incredible ways (similar to technology) and so people keep relying on it more and more, focus on it more.

    Careful to handle it well so they aren't damaged, the arcane has nothing but benefits that they can see (addiction isn't a thing, no one watches for it, it becomes noticeable when it's too late). It's good to understand the state of the civilization then.

    It also helps understand why they will never become so arcane polarised like the pre-sundering era or the Nightborne ever again, but also why the arcane practice and use will once more grow substantially amongst them - but instead of runaway like it did in the past, they have hindsight, and nature wielding is also pretty advanced, there will be an equilibrium now.

    Night elves don't have to avoid the arcane anymore - there is no guarding against the Legion's return and arcane signatures can be hidden from the twisting nether - so those with the talent and love can pursue it, pure nature days are also over. There new society has the chance to be the best with a balance between arcane and nature being reached.

    I detailed further that cities would be the highest concentration of arcane development, while in the forest the druidic nature love and nature work - will continue, druids have a purpose , they guide the evolution of the world, and they protect nature, they do this because they really love nature, even if they have an arcane affinity and talent, their not locked to it.

    They are talented at arcane and nature racially.

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Slight correction here, but significant - the guilt they felt never transformed into hatred against spellcasters and you can prove it.

    1. That is never said - though I am aware players think so
    2. There is hatred towards Highborne - not spellcasters for being spellcasters - whether arcane or otherwise.
    3. Don't forget the ban on the arcane and preventing spellcasting is not due to hatred - it's considered absolutely necessary to prevent the Legion's return which to them means world destruction - so every diligent and thorough effort is translated through that lens - not the hatred lens.
    4. Maiev Shadowsong is the only one who is written as hating spellcasters or the arcane itself, she is irrational and unhinged for doing so, the rest of the night elves hated the Highborne for their role, but forgave and accepted many (from Darth'remar's group, to other Highborne who stayed on, to the Shen'dralar)
    5. The night elves show 0 hatred towards human arcane spell casters in WC3 when they have to fight with them, there is no hatred for spellcasters either in the WotA, in fact most of the Night elf resistance army was made of spell casters, Moonguard and others - so it's not spell casting they hated.

    Banning was not because of hate, there is also no incentive to hate spell casters during the long vigil, only to eliminate them because of the Legion threat. once the Long vigil ends, you see 0 hatred. Tyrande and Malfurion help Kael'thas a powerful spell casters

    6. Humans, Draenei, Gnomes all have prolific spellcasters, there is 0 mention, portrayal of hatred towards them. Only Maiev is recorded as hating all spellcasters.

    Understanding the reason for the ban is very important. If you think they hate spellcasters, you will have trouble accepting why the ban on arcane is lifted, you will think night elves don't want to learn arcane magic, and ultimately it would feed an incorrect perception that they're not arcane inclined or based, which is not what the story or lore is telling us about them.

    The problem with accepting the Highborne was hard not because they use magic, but because of the role they played in the legion invasion that destroyed the night elves' civilization. For the Shen'dralar, it's in part because they were members of the caste, but it was specifically because they did nothing while the Queen rolled out her demonic invasion, only acting when their city was attacked. the Shen'dralar were not complicit in actually summoning the demons, but there is anger towards the caste, there isn't anger towards the Kirin'tor, the Draenei mages and others.

    Oh and btw, whiles it is true they would have realised after the 3rd war that there were safe ways to wield magic, this info is only valuable retrospectively. This is not what makes them change their mind on practicing magic, or suppressing it. Because the whole reason they banned magic, was not because they thought it was unsafe to handle, but because using it would bring the Legion back, and the entire Long Vigil mission is undertaken to prevent that return. This return happens in Wc3, which is why night elves aren't telling human and high elf mages not to use arcane magic, in the battle, they haven't suddenly realised these races can handle it safely, the whole danger of the arcane was not in safe handling, but in preventing what had come anyway, and so the need for stopping it was meaningless from then on.

    Truth be told, the night elves could have started using the arcane then, but it wasn't until the Shen'dralar approached them, warned them of the Cataclysm and the threat tot heir lands was so great, they could no longer ignore or stall using a powerful tool that they are the original masters of, especially with a highly skilled group of night elves who hadn't stopped using it making themselves available, and also importantly, were free of corruption and addiction. Which would have been minor, but important enough concerns for them.

    Besides, I don't think those night elves would suffer the humiliation of having humans teach or upgrade them on what they would consider as "their magic".



    Agreed 100%, I think this is where people mis-understand me, because I am often challenging the perceptions people have on the night elves in relation to magic and the arcane, they think I am pushing for night elf race to become like the blood elves or the pre-sundering era invasion period or what they perceive that era to be like.

    not at all, my motivation is because I am aware of many wrong assumptions concerning night elves, easy to miss if you don't know the detail and lore and want to offer insight because people actually think that night elf some how means Wood elf because they saw lots of trees and wood life in WC3 and classic, but sadly because they didn't read the lore , novels too that have most of night elf lore, and the texts, the context for the setting is mis-construed and often mis-interpreted, and as such it is most challenged causing longer discussions or arguments that prolong the discussion as I try to uncover these things and show a fuller picture of the lore many may not realise because they don't know or rely on summaries like that of Wowpedia instead of buying the books, novels, chronicles and reading them like Idid.

    Saying that I 100% agree, druidism and faith in Elune will remain central parts of the night elves, they are core parts of the night elves, the thing is, so is the arcane, but it is has not been obvious in the in-game presentation - because you see trees and nature magic, and haven't seen much arcane display, but it's there. a simple example is WC3, most people have no idea the well of Eternity is the centre of the night elf story and purpose for everything you see about them, the Legion and guarding the well is why they're in forest and not in smashingly amazing night elf cities, but most people think it's the tree Nordrassil that they were guarding - because you see the big tree in the picture, not the well it is grown over, and if you're not actually paying attention to the story or read the lore, it's lost on you, so you think the arcane has no relevance at all, and finding out will shock you.

    There are so many other indications, like the Moonwells, also arcane waters, the glowy eyes of silver that are because of the arcane, the starfall, starshards spells even non-arcane wielding night elves like priests and druids can cast are all indications. Then ofc there is the Highborne, and all the pre-sundering lore, the fact that night elves have never changed since they fully evolved as beings from the arcane waters, infused with it and disposed to it.

    the story is one of the more interesting in wow, and i't's a long tale, but the full story gives you the full context, not just WC3 which is an even t that is over in a volume. How they were progressed in wow should be an indication, Night elves are are introduced in classic, with no real updates to the race till cata, so basically cata is the next stage of the story after Ashenvale quests in classic, and there the Highborne come in, as for Legion you see a lot more.

    The signs are all there. They have 3 cores, the arcane, nature and Elune. But that's not all there is to them, it means they are magical at the core, which is why they make such great fel users in the demon hunters.



    I am curious too. Elune was famous for the arcane spells the priest cast in WC3, then we see some holy ones in WotA trilogy, then wow comes and they tell us all priests cast holy spells (tbh I think was a cop out because they didn't want to design different things for priest classes of different faiths, so based all on the human one, kind like how all druids are based on the night elf version (only inventing new versions with the Zandalari and Drust) - what games like SWTOR did by giving completely new identities to what is exactly the same class was something that original systems creators didn't do, but it would have solved that issue.

    WotA does mention Pain Mistresses in the order of Elune that wield a shadowy (now void) magic, but nothing more, so this Dark side of Elune signifying void is interesting. So you have Arcane, Light and Void associated strongly with Elune. However she is still mysterious.. Very mysterious. Even what the priest side of the order of Elune is quite mysterious. We know and see a lot of the Sentinels and huntresses - cos that's easy, not the priestesses, their faith, how it ties into the arcane, the star culture etc - huge unknown. We know some of the history, Elune is discovered by the Night elves from studying the Well of Eternity, she is strongly identified with the arcane they learn, and is believed to dwell within the Well, even though the Moon above is her symbol. We have consistently seen priestesses of the moon whenever shown from WC3 to current, using arcane spells (latest edition is in Naz'jatar - the world boss priestess, before that it's Tyrande in the 8.1 Night Warrior quest line, then Tyrande again in End times, then NElf priest starshards ability, then WC3 Starfall.

    But it seems these arcane abilities aren't limited to priests either, night elf druids use them, in fact their druidism is based on the balance between arcane and nature in a night and day cycle stars/moon and sun, furthermore when we meet some Nightborne and Moonguard arcane users, some of their abilities also call on the stars and moon - indicating that this is a core racial facet of the night elves in some Elune/Arcane connection - and it makes sense too because of their name Children of the Stars and their arcane origin and aptitude which is very much a part of them.

    When the main group (not all night elves, just the main group) ban the use of arcane magic for spells from the Well, it's to prevent the legion returning and realising there is still a well, however they are still connected and around the source itself directly and the Moonwells they treasure so, none of the night elves' natural arcane predisposition or characteristics are lost because they don't practice the arcane, they are still arcane in essence, with that part of them, the only thing is that group is just out of practice using it for spells from the well of eternity. Says nothing about using the stars and moon as your source - afterall that won't light Azseroth up now would it.

    This is why I wrote the section on Arcane. Nature and Elune in the night elves in the original post if you want to look at it. The entire OP is collecting the information we have that shows and points to the arcane core, and how events like the Legion invasion, WC3, the long Vigil era etc don't mean that the night elves don't have this as a core part of them, and the indications that point to th is.

    I also note specifically, that of the alliance aligned night elf group, the arcane is a core part of them however the practice of it isn't widespread in their society - but many do not understand how these two statements are different. But it's not hard, you can have nature love as a core part of you and not be a druid because you are a priest or craftsman or a mage, like wise you can have the arcane (as in arcane magic - not skill using it0 as acore part of your being, yourDNA, your make up) but not be a mage - you ca n still be a druid that love nature a lot and still have the arcane as a core part of you, in your heart, your love for nature exceeds that for the arcane, but you have natural racial disposition to both.

    This is the duality of the night elves the lore shows us and sets up - and it is what we see consistent in them regardless of whether pre-sundering era (where it talks about their great forests and cities weaving arcane with nature magic) or the Long vigil, when the practice was banned, but arcane magic through the Well of Eternity and Moonwells were used extensively to passively enhance nature and the world and the night elves were linked to this whether they used the power for spells or not.

    It's there, it's just not easy to spot if you're only looking at the scenery and seeing forests, but not understanding the context to why they are there nor caring exactly what these people are written to be. A lot see forests and just think.. ah ! Wood Elves - that's it - cos they're in forests, love nature -- look, they even banned the arcane - wood elves - and pay attention to nothing else. So when Highborne join, cities like Suramar pop up, they're shocked, and some are so in disbelief, they're convinced, well, these aren't night elves, or say, well that was the distant past, it's not night elves any more, what they are saying is there is nothing of the arcane in night elves, which is clearly false. They've very simply pegged night elves as wood elves thinking that the word night means wood because this I what they see in the first few graphics, and that's how other fantasies do it, therefore that's how it is in wow, never thinking beyond that. And lore behold, the lore tells you, shows you it is so much more than that.

    More, so much more than meets the eye.
    @Rhlor - I think you will find my responses to Vaedan above quite helpful - if you decide to read it all.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Commonality or rarity of the Shen'dralar doesn't change the night elf at its core. It is situation that dictated the lifestyle of the Long vigil, not a racial transformation to a new type of elf - in fact the druidism practised in it wasn't even new, it's from the early pre-sundering era periods, - it's just life without arcane conveniences and spellcasting to prevent the legion's return.

    The night elves don't get drained of arcane talent or arcane aptitude.. so even if their society has few arcane users now, without any reason to not practice arcane, you will see the number of arcane users rise to an equilibrium point between arcane user and nature users. The priests seem to use both arcane and light so they lean more in the arcane realm, but most of their order roams the forests, few are temple based.

    We saw the night elf Highborne numbers rise as the old Highborne Darnassians returned to the caste, and many new novices started studying - because they have the talent, which couldn't be used before WC3 because of the ban, but can now.

    And they have teachers in the Shen'dralar. If the Shen'dralar were all gone, they'd have the Kirin'tor, the Draenei, the Gnomes, the humans , the high elves and void elves to teach them and their number would still grow.

    if they had none of these, they would teach themselves just like they did, if there is any race that can self-teach themselves magic, it's the very race that first studied and mastered it.

    So, it will rise. Now a rise doesn't mean dominance, like in pre-sundering times, but I expect an equilibrium, a balance, because harmony and balance are key aspects of the night elves - it's a druid foundation, they aren't the only key aspects, but they are the ones that are most valued and upheld by the druids, discipline and humility, progress and development are the others - with the elven natural benevolence, grace (beauty) and high intelligence the characteristics that drive this.

    [See the last section of the OP - for more detail - inf act, read the whole thing again.]
    In Wolfheart we can see how it was not just maiev who was going crazy killing people we also see other Watchers working together with maiev so we can say that there are more people who think like maiev and it was not just her.
    and I'm sure you know about the dialogues between mordent and a sentinel
    Archmage Mordent Evenshade says: Sentinel, I would speak with your High Priestess.
    Sentinel Stillbough says: You must wait for an audience.
    Archmage Mordent Evenshade says: Must I? I doubt Tyrande has more pressing business.
    Sentinel Stillbough says: You show some nerve coming to Teldrassil, Highborne. Your kind are unwelcome here. We have not forgotten the War of the Ancients or the minds behind it.
    Archmage Mordent Evenshade says: The lure of power is great. Mistakes were made.
    Sentinel Stillbough says: And we would not see those mistakes repeated. Return to your exile.
    Archmage Mordent Evenshade says: I will not return until I am heard. There is too much at stake. There is a change on the wind, and we cannot ignore it. I have traveled from the dust and ruin of the past to come to an accord. The time may soon come when the kal'dorei require the knowledge and skill we have to offer. I will wait, Sentinel... but I will have my audience.
    Sentinel Stillbough says: Take your gaze off the moonwell, exile. The power within is not yours to wield.
    Archmage Mordent Evenshade says: Calm yourself, Sentinel. I do not seek to use it. I am merely... remembering.
    Sentinel Stillbough says: Recalling your treachery?
    Archmage Mordent Evenshade says: Enough. I have been apart from this for centuries. The well within this temple may be a pale spectre of the Well of Eternity, but it still holds the same... beauty. Purity.
    Archmage Mordent Evenshade says: I had forgotten.
    Archmage Mordent Evenshade says: I do not believe admiration and wistful thoughts are against the societal norm.
    Sentinel Stillbough says: Watch yourself, Highborne.
    Archmage Mordent Evenshade says: You were the one who challenged me for merely looking. I still await my audience with Tyrande.
    Sentinel Stillbough says: In good time.

    Darnassians don't like highborne, they accept them but would not let them recreate a civilization similar to the old empire.

    The playable night elves have their own culture where the shendrelar are a small minority and I hopefully to see a small shendrelar district in the new capital night elf with a nice mage tower.

  4. #744
    Herald of the Titans Tuor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    but all night elves were wielding the arcane,
    Citation required.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    Citation required.
    War of the Ancints trilogy, Chronicles Volume 1 - Ceanrius was a myth to most night elves, and night elf children were taught spell work along with reading and writing - so, not all became mages - i.e. e profession/field dedicated to arcane spell casting, but all wielded the arcane, whether a little or a lot. The little children you see in Suramar are basically an example of what is common across the empire, wielding spells, that is taken directly from the Well of Eternity novel.

    I interpret this or imagine it like using spells is common place like using technology today. words of power, racial ability to tap the arcane power - is all it takes. and they all can, but not all are good enough or specifically tailored for that work as a profession..afterall there are other fields, like Elunism, nature (more frequent in the previous periods), craftsmen, Governors, etc etc.

    what most people realise is that ALL night elves can use the arcane, they are internally filled with power, however not all night elves choose too, and not all night elves are highly talented in it. The Highborne caste was a caste of NElves specifically highly talented at it. The Long vigil group were a group of Night elves that chose not to use it in order to prevent the legion's return - though they had the capacity, and talent to.

    It's also why night elf priests and druids can use arcane spells even though they're priests and not mages, druids and not mages. For most other races, they don't have this arcane origin or connection the lore gives night elves, so not everyone can learn to become a mage or be one, and not everyone can use magic. This is not the case with the night elves. But because all can use and all like or a dre drawn to it, doesn't mean all actually use or all are very good at it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    In Wolfheart we can see how it was not just maiev who was going crazy killing people we also see other Watchers working together with maiev so we can say that there are more people who think like maiev and it was not just her.
    .
    No, it isn't just Maiev, but she is the ring leader, and in the course of the story you discover she is the one that Is behind the resisting voices, she stirred them up to hatred, and those that don't get killed abandon her as she is shown to be clearly psychotic - a huntress without a prey.

    Also she is the only one that is recorded as hating the arcane itself - arcane magic, any wielding on it by anybody regardless, Night elves are not recorded as hating the arcane, only banning it because it brings the legion back during the long Vigil era. - so it's very dangerous to use and they're strict on that. they however are recorded as hating the Highborne caste for their role.

    This is an important distinction again that just flies over the head of most people as they just generalise thinking night elves don't like the arcane.

    Also some don't understand that just because you hate addiction to a thing doesn't mean you hate the thing. I love food, I hate food addiction - makes me obese, out of control, lethargic and unhealthy too, I hate what it leads me to become, but I love food nonetheless, food is good for me, until I consume it out of proportion, and don't live in balance, doing exercises, going out for works etc... if I use the conveniences of science and technology (i.e. magic) all the time to take taxis, bouses, car rides, escalators instead of my own two feet to run and exercise, I become unhealthy, I can love the technology and science and make good use of it for grat efficieny, that's good, but if I live out of balance now refusing to walk sometimes and use my natural body, whether its because I scorn people who work instead of teleport or ride magical flying carpets, it's the same thing, I will become unbalanced and unhealthy.

    To be the best person, in the best shape and achieve the best, I need balance. This si why I firmly believe night elves will and should lead the elves as the best examples because of the balance they will have with arcane, nature and spirituality/psychology from the priesthood - they would achieve great things and be in good balance and health.

    it's also why I think actually the most attractive looking evles should be night elves, the night elf male should literally be your chiselled adonis just the right amount of everything, rather than lopsided like he is - and I don't agree the male faces should be so ugly or old either - even if you're just basing them on druids, never mind the enhancements of longevity the arcane brings, druids are like 100% organic with magic helping you grow healthy and arcane boosting it on top, add to that 1000s of years sleeping, they should have the best skin, and the most flawless appearances - not the super wrinkled. - That's my opinion.

  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    War of the Ancints trilogy, Chronicles Volume 1 - Ceanrius was a myth to most night elves, and night elf children were taught spell work along with reading and writing - so, not all became mages - i.e. e profession/field dedicated to arcane spell casting, but all wielded the arcane, whether a little or a lot. The little children you see in Suramar are basically an example of what is common across the empire, wielding spells, that is taken directly from the Well of Eternity novel.

    I interpret this or imagine it like using spells is common place like using technology today. words of power, racial ability to tap the arcane power - is all it takes. and they all can, but not all are good enough or specifically tailored for that work as a profession..afterall there are other fields, like Elunism, nature (more frequent in the previous periods), craftsmen, Governors, etc etc.

    what most people realise is that ALL night elves can use the arcane, they are internally filled with power, however not all night elves choose too, and not all night elves are highly talented in it. The Highborne caste was a caste of NElves specifically highly talented at it. The Long vigil group were a group of Night elves that chose not to use it in order to prevent the legion's return - though they had the capacity, and talent to.

    It's also why night elf priests and druids can use arcane spells even though they're priests and not mages, druids and not mages. For most other races, they don't have this arcane origin or connection the lore gives night elves, so not everyone can learn to become a mage or be one, and not everyone can use magic. This is not the case with the night elves. But because all can use and all like or a dre drawn to it, doesn't mean all actually use or all are very good at it.

    - - - Updated - - -


    No, it isn't just Maiev, but she is the ring leader, and in the course of the story you discover she is the one that Is behind the resisting voices, she stirred them up to hatred, and those that don't get killed abandon her as she is shown to be clearly psychotic - a huntress without a prey.

    Also she is the only one that is recorded as hating the arcane itself - arcane magic, any wielding on it by anybody regardless, Night elves are not recorded as hating the arcane, only banning it because it brings the legion back during the long Vigil era. - so it's very dangerous to use and they're strict on that. they however are recorded as hating the Highborne caste for their role.

    This is an important distinction again that just flies over the head of most people as they just generalise thinking night elves don't like the arcane.

    Also some don't understand that just because you hate addiction to a thing doesn't mean you hate the thing. I love food, I hate food addiction - makes me obese, out of control, lethargic and unhealthy too, I hate what it leads me to become, but I love food nonetheless, food is good for me, until I consume it out of proportion, and don't live in balance, doing exercises, going out for works etc... if I use the conveniences of science and technology (i.e. magic) all the time to take taxis, bouses, car rides, escalators instead of my own two feet to run and exercise, I become unhealthy, I can love the technology and science and make good use of it for grat efficieny, that's good, but if I live out of balance now refusing to walk sometimes and use my natural body, whether its because I scorn people who work instead of teleport or ride magical flying carpets, it's the same thing, I will become unbalanced and unhealthy.

    To be the best person, in the best shape and achieve the best, I need balance. This si why I firmly believe night elves will and should lead the elves as the best examples because of the balance they will have with arcane, nature and spirituality/psychology from the priesthood - they would achieve great things and be in good balance and health.

    it's also why I think actually the most attractive looking evles should be night elves, the night elf male should literally be your chiselled adonis just the right amount of everything, rather than lopsided like he is - and I don't agree the male faces should be so ugly or old either - even if you're just basing them on druids, never mind the enhancements of longevity the arcane brings, druids are like 100% organic with magic helping you grow healthy and arcane boosting it on top, add to that 1000s of years sleeping, they should have the best skin, and the most flawless appearances - not the super wrinkled. - That's my opinion.
    If I remember correctly, many are getting older because when they lose their immortality they begin to have older appearances, for example, Jarod's wife died of old age.

  7. #747
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    If I remember correctly, many are getting older because when they lose their immortality they begin to have older appearances, for example, Jarod's wife died of old age.
    Jarod's wife Shalasyr actually died to some form of illness, though her great age was said to be a factor, in Wolfheart.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #748
    Night Elves should look older and less beautiful, because they are an old race.
    Blood elves and High Elves were always wrote as majestic and beautiful - they're models reflect that.

  9. #749
    @Mace,
    I gladly comply, it's a fun exercise.

    So as others stated and as far as my own knowledge goes, the current Kaldorei culture is still heavy in divine, as per custom, and nature in place of arcane, as it was in the past.

    Now for the sake of the discussion I'll repeat what's known: the practice of the arcane, as in "magic", is no longer subject to the long ban: Deathwing called for unprecedented efforts, and Mordent's plea became an asset, a very welcome one when the whole assault on the Firelands takes place.

    I can see how maybe the Kaldorei have an innate knack for the arcane, but my stance would be that much like other races (and ourselves) everyone has its own calling: taking the Nightborne as an example for a second, Arluin had a very different skillset than Valtrois.

    So in this, some might embrace the arcane. As I already mentioned, down the line I'd see this Silver Covenant 2.0 with the entirety of the alliance elven front deployed.
    More on that later.

    Now for the most important player in the question at hand: what the future might hold for the Night elf, given the current Tyrande situation?
    No matter how much traditions are reinstated in the Kaldorei, there's been a momentous event that could not be foreseen and neither can be ignored. Teldrassil burned.

    In a society that's been heavy in all that tree represents for 10000 years, I can see the fracture. Moreover, now Tyrande is the closest thing her people have ever had in terms of an avatar of Elune: chosen by the goddess, incarnating her wrath.
    I'm willingly abstaining from Shadowlands spoilers, I know the whole night warrior thing gets expanded there but I'm saving my sense of marvel for later times.

    Tyrande might pull the Kaldorei in unprecedented directions, much like the Forsaken became the current commando come Cataclysm. She could push for them to embrace the divine/ nature side she instated in ages long past, making the archetypal Night elf ruthless and focused on the goal of obeying the voice of Elune and purging whatever vestige of the Banshee still left in the Horde or around Azeroth, but this would set any societal advancement back years.

    In any case I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility. Let's call it a radicalization, if you will.

    Alongside this possibility, or completely in its place, there's the other scenario I envision.
    Currently the Alliance has the entire spectrum of the elven culture barring the Nightborne: the Kaldorei, the Highborne and the Thalassian.
    The Horde has something similar, but as I see it it's heavier in relativism and lacks the "composure".

    This opens up the possibility of reclaiming old ruins and forgotten places of splendor long gone by, so that a more moderate wing of Kaldorei can work to reinstate not only what has been long lost and forgotten, but most importantly and maybe more interestingly: iterate on the knowledge of those who did not stop practicing and studying magic, and with the approach of those who first come in contact with something (a bizarre gift the long vigil might very well have brought) have the creativity to reinvent elvenkind, in a way.

    In this scenario part of the Kaldorei somewhat lose their own current identity, but gain another one as forefathers and foundation for something greater to be built.
    Last edited by Jackstraw; 2020-06-24 at 10:12 PM.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    If I remember correctly, many are getting older because when they lose their immortality they begin to have older appearances, for example, Jarod's wife died of old age.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shalasyr
    "Shalasyr was struck by an illness due to aging"

    Not sure where you get the "many" from. First of in the art work his wife still look young. Second... she is literally the only example we have of a night elf dying due to the loss of immortality.
    If Jarod looks like that because of the loss of immortality, we don't know if its a effect of the lost of immortality at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Night Elves should look older and less beautiful, because they are an old race.
    Blood elves and High Elves were always wrote as majestic and beautiful - they're models reflect that.
    Night Elfs are older yes but they stopped aging with their immortality.
    The male night elf looks generally older yes, but thats more to have a stronger druid fantasy to them.
    The females do not look old at all.
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2020-06-24 at 10:19 PM.

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    You are most likely right on that. Tyrande herself expressed something similar in WC3:

    "Long ago, I swore to protect this land, Furion. I never had the luxury of sleeping through times of great peril."

    Long Vigil elves were defined by their servise to the world. They saw themselves as ultimate protectors of Azeroth. As you said, they felt guilt, which over years transformed into hatred towards spellcasters, who were considered as potentional danger that can bring Legion back.
    Curious, have you ever thought of how the night elves viewed themselves during the pre-sundering era? They do call themselves the children of the stars, for me that is the first thing I look at when trying to imagine how they viewed themselves.

    I've always felt they loved magic and nature, but had a great love for their world and saw themselves as the people to bring enlightnement, prosperity, correction and advancements.

    The lore talks about their w ondrous civilization, their graceful forms, their curiosity and benevolence, their high intelligence and near immortality - all these conspire to help inform me on what the night elves viewed themselves and their role in the world.

    They must have seen themselves as deefnders and protectors of nature and bringers of grace and beauty - using their magics to drive away all that was undesirable. But they were also a peaceful centred lot, it characterised them as dark elves, and that just seemed to go to the next level when tehy becasme these graceful night elves.


    I bring this up, because the Long Vigil was a mission. they had a goal and function, a task to do, watch for, and prevent the Legion's, guard against it. This isn't life as normal, or the regular mandate. To fulfil this a lot of things that would be part of normal life stop, and not just the arcane and the conveniences /efficiencies wielding it to do great works yields.

    This is why so much changes after the long Vigil ends - and I would imagine many things from the pre-sundering era return. Just not the bad attitudes and reckless excesses prevalent in the invasion period, many of the things that made the civilization good would not be forever tossed away, but return when the race starts to actually live a normal existence again, it would be a normal night elven existence they've always done. In cities it would be many ways from the pre-sundering era, not absolutely everything, like we see in the Nightborne, but many things - noticeably absent would be that haughty hubris, addiction and reckless abuse of magic.

    The druidic culture would continue, because druidic operations aren't altered by the end of the Long Vigil, the work the druids mostly did was not based on waiting for the legion's return and had little to do with arcane magic, so when the Long vigil ends, the forest lifestyle continues, and their work continues. However other night elves would experience change as cities are built (like Darnassus), interactions with other cultures outside the forest occur, need for embassy, diplomatic relationships, family life meaning settling down instead of endless patrols in war mode, now you can start raising children, trading things that had stopped. This is what night elf nation would become again, only the druidic societies would remain in that Long Vigil state.

    And so, the Night elves would have something quite close to the pre-sundering civilization in their cities and open areas, and the long vigil with those that live amongst the druids. They'd have both. Ofc, new things would emerge


    What are your thoughts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Night Elves should look older and less beautiful, because they are an old race.
    Blood elves and High Elves were always wrote as majestic and beautiful - they're models reflect that.

    Disagree, I think on the whole, because they are a Highborne based race, the tidiness and vain beauty would be higher in the Thalassians, compared to some wilder appearances on the night elves. But the night elves would have beautiful options too, and not just their Highborne, this is not exclusive to Highborne. Elaborate vanity would be present also because they have Highborne, so again their spread would be bigger. But I'm sure you are okay with accepting night elves having something in larger quantity because it's things that a less amazing.


    So yeh, they would have uglier ones. night elves are beginning to show signs of age, but his doesn't make them all old, we have no idea what the spread is. What is a night elves' actual lifespan, without immortality, what has determined the who looks old and who does not? it's definitely not every one that's 10,000 years looks very old, we see Maiev, Jarod, and especially Tyrande and Malfurion look quite young and healthy - we don't know what the criteria is, atm, I would assume that it's those that are probably around the 12-14,000 year old mark. More realistically would be they start aging now, and no one should have been dying of old age - because it's not been thought out properly, they wanted to show night elves as weaker, wanted to show the effects of the loss of immortality, but didn't think it through on what the mark would be.


    We've assumed currently a night elves natural lifespan is 10,000 years old, but we have no idea.


    however , I think that any race you are going to give different colours like purple or green that humans don't have, you will have to make exceptionally beautiful if you want them to compete with those with natural human colours, because peole will generally find those more attractive as they fit our standard of beauty closer.


    So night elves should have exceptionally beautiful models to make up for being purple with glowy silver eyes - almost as if to say if it wasn't for the purple skin and really long elven ears, they'd have been first choice, but purple and gigantic ears is just one factor of weird too far for most, but because they're beautiful, they're exotic.

  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    @Mace,
    I gladly comply, it's a fun exercise.

    So as others stated and as far as my own knowledge goes, the current Kaldorei culture is still heavy in divine, as per custom, and nature in place of arcane, as it was in the past.
    Agree here, but notice this is the prevalence of the practice or culture of the order/magic type - this is not an indication of how talented or pre-disposed or capable the race is naturally at it.

    All night elves have an arcane affinity and ability for I, however only 20% of the society currently actually use it - means arcane use isn't widespread in their society, it doesn't mean that Night elves aren't arcane capable or the arcane isn't core to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Now for the sake of the discussion I'll repeat what's known: the practice of the arcane, as in "magic", is no longer subject to the long ban: Deathwing called for unprecedented efforts, and Mordent's plea became an asset, a very welcome one when the whole assault on the Firelands takes place.

    I can see how maybe the Kaldorei have an innate knack for the arcane, but my stance would be that much like other races (and ourselves) everyone has its own calling: taking the Nightborne as an example for a second, Arluin had a very different skillset than Valtrois.
    it's true everyone has his own calling, but callings also change too. Now the night elves are a race who blizzard has given lore over 3 eras, extensively. There is more about the kaldorei pre-sundering era than there is about the Long vigil. But the most time has been spent on the current era -and it shows a changing in the levels or spread of callings.

    My point her ofc, is that the night elves' calling is not fixed and locked on nature - only. Nor will it stay there. For argument's sake we can say that it is still predominantly druidism and Elunism, but the spread is changing. during classic, there was 0 arcane, at the start of catac maybe 1-5% amongst the alliance aligned faction, by Legion, it's much higher, put a stab at say 20% - there is definitely a rise. We should expect this. The ones talented at the arcane couldn't learn or practice in it because it was banned, it is no longer banned, therefore those can now be trained by the Shen'dralar greatly adding to their numbers (however many that was)



    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    So in this, some might embrace the arcane. As I already mentioned, down the line I'd see this Silver Covenant 2.0 with the entirety of the alliance elven front deployed.
    More on that later.

    Now for the most important player in the question at hand: what the future might hold for the Night elf, given the current Tyrande situation?
    No matter how much traditions are reinstated in the Kaldorei, there's been a momentous event that could not be foreseen and neither can be ignored. Teldrassil burned.

    In a society that's been heavy in all that tree represents for 10000 years, I can see the fracture. Moreover, now Tyrande is the closest thing her people have ever had in terms of an avatar of Elune: chosen by the goddess, incarnating her wrath.
    I'm willingly abstaining from Shadowlands spoilers, I know the whole night warrior thing gets expanded there but I'm saving my sense of marvel for later times.
    A fracture? The tree was only about 14-18 years old, not 10,000 years, you might be thinking Nordrassil, but then for most Night elves it wasn't Nordrassil that was the focus but the Well of Eternity it was hiding from magical eyes. Evil magical eyes in the twisting nether also.

    The destruction of Teldrassil I don't feel would aid in people turning to the arcane any more. Yes some have lost faith in the goddess which perhaps is a first for the night elves. Faith in the arcane was broken due to the events of the War of the Ancients, faith in nature shaken by Cenarius' death, then ofc the easy corruption the Nightmare had on druid kind, faith in Elune is shaken now too. So all that means is that every facet of the night elves is on even ground, the arcane isn't more distrusted than Elune or nature - maybe it's even more trusted, it's just the Highborne they have difficulty with. Who knows.

    A fracture perhaps in terms of the people dividing? Seen no sign of that, in fact a genocide should bring the remaining groups together, perhaps be a unifying factor for all the different night elf groups that weren't already allied with the alliance faction night elves we have come to refer to as the Darnassians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Tyrande might pull the Kaldorei in unprecedented directions, much like the Forsaken became the current commando come Cataclysm. She could push for them to embrace the divine/ nature side she instated in ages long past, making the archetypal Night elf ruthless and focused on the goal of obeying the voice of Elune and purging whatever vestige of the Banshee still left in the Horde or around Azeroth, but this would set any societal advancement back years.

    In any case I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility. Let's call it a radicalization, if you will.
    Indeed , glad you are spotting this, most people don't. This is exactly what Raven and I mean by the narrative introducing something new that can lead to further change or new things.

    The Nightwarrior ritual is one of those "new" things we didn't know about that was introduced. There is so much about the earlier pre-sundering era we don't know, the time before Azshara and her Highborne became addicted and haughty, or the time before Azshara when the High Priestess led, and their civilization was still mainly around the well of eternity and the arcane had didn't developed to the wondrous state it is at when they get really cocky. or the time before even that when Cenarius meets them, having their incredible behaviour draw his attention and teaching them the ways of the forest - before their arcane curiosity and desire for more leads them to further study the well.

    This is why I say that without a Long Vigil type reason not to use the arcane, we will see many night elves start using it again, because the pre-disposition is in their race. What we won't see is the level of polarisation, that they were at at the end of the pre-sundering era - because they now know their is an addiction danger if you do away with balance and they are not as enamoured with what the arcane can do now, after seeing great things and then the shock of the Legion. However this helps to highlight how an event can change things, and without one, the Night elves should actually eventually gain an equilibrium between the degree of arcane use, nature use and Elune devotion in terms of numbers of elves using these things. However ALL night elves have arcane affinity and ability, all night elves love nature and know its secret and all Night elves believe in Elune [this is not saying all night elves are mages, druids and priests simultaneously - and forgive me if stating the obvious offends you, but I must because people have misread my statements like these far to often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Alongside this possibility, or completely in its place, there's the other scenario I envision.
    Currently the Alliance has the entire spectrum of the elven culture barring the Nightborne: the Kaldorei, the Highborne and the Thalassian.
    The Horde has something similar, but as I see it it's heavier in relativism and lacks the "composure".
    couple of tings..
    1. Just pointing out the following out btw. You know it's not a "let's divide the night elf aspects, and give the horde some and the alliance some" - it's not a hey the night elves will do the forest elf thing, the blood elves the high elf thing, the Nightborne the dark elf thing - just saying - too many people think that, and forget that this is not done in any race at all. Why with elves? Amongs all the human factions, the troll factions/races, the dwarf ones, they are not divided strictly to types.. and while the elves are in both factions, theyd idn't go.. oh the blood elves will have arcane magic, and the void elves void magic - no, both have several, but the allied race, the sub-race the void elves, are a smaller sn
    snapshot of the blood elves.

    Likewise the Nightborne are a snapshot of a part of the night elves, not its replacement, just the highborne aspect made available, they just happen to be on the other faction, and it's a co-incidence that both horde elves have the civilization assets, while the alliance elves are homeless, it's not because blizzard intend for the horde elves to be the rich and beautiful, or civilized ones or anything like that. The Highmountain Tauren do not replace the shamanism and druidism of the Tauren, they have it because they're Tauren. Same with the Lightforged and the normal Draenei, Lightforged don't replace the Draenei's light wielding capacity, they're just a different group but have those things because they are draenei...

    2. The alliance is the native faction of the elven races. The High elves from which the blood elves come from, and the Night elves from which the Nightborne come from are alliance. As you can clearly see, they don't fit what was the horde at all, the horde had a theme and identity of a particular kind before those races came, with them in, the horde is now a faction of disparate races.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    This opens up the possibility of reclaiming old ruins and forgotten places of splendor long gone by, so that a more moderate wing of Kaldorei can work to reinstate not only what has been long lost and forgotten, but most importantly and maybe more interestingly: iterate on the knowledge of those who did not stop practicing and studying magic, and with the approach of those who first come in contact with something (a bizarre gift the long vigil might very well have brought) have the creativity to reinvent elvenkind, in a way.

    In this scenario part of the Kaldorei somewhat lose their own current identity, but gain another one as forefathers and foundation for something greater to be built.
    there are many options they can pursue with how to frame or personalise or give different purpose to the elves on the alliance from those on the horde.

    There already exists one based on the fact they are in different factions, even though they are basically the same races (even the sub race void elf and Nightborne) - by virtue of what the factions stand for these races are different.

    other differences are in ideology ..we know that blood elves and high elves are ideologically quite different, - Night elves and Nightborne are different too more on a cultural level although we've been discussing that in detail, because culturally the Nightborne share great similarities with the Highborne, but not with the priests or the druids. Night elves today has all 3 influences and growing into a balance, but the Nightborne only have one third of that, the arcane third, - therefore expect them to only have a city, instead of cities and forests with temples in either. They are a 1 function group - but that's okay, they're not a core race, they're an allied race, it's their purpose. They'll get more if people specifically like them, but at the moment it looks like people just love that they're with the blood elves and Suramar is called horde, there isn't anything else they seem interested in, their value to them is near 0 it's just for "pretty city" "we have powerful magic friends" - use to annoy me, but hey, if people want to be superficial that's them, they have the Nightborne, the night elves have their Highborne and will get a city soon anyway.


    And finally I agree with your last statement, I know many a night elf fan that have longed to see the night elves rebuild their civilization and ruins, forgotten places to splendour. And why not?! It's the perfect time and position for them to do so, with arcane magic back, also out of isolation, needing to be strong , replenish their numbers and use their great noweledge and age experience to keep themselves enough ahead of their enemies to ensure they survive etc.

    Also it is a good thing to restore great things, - there seems to be some confusion and I think error from some who think the night elves don't want any of that - but their reasoning is basically because of the Long vigil - no other reason, so I explore their thinking with them. when we examine the Long Vigil, these things are put aside not because the night elves think they are bad, but because they have no time for them, and no means to restore them, the long Vigil mandate necessitates a very different lifestyle, there is a global threat, they introduced to the world, their responsibility to monitor, watch for it, guard against it and they want to protect the world, so they have no time to rebuild anything. Looking at the pre-sundering era, it wasn't the splendour of the civilization that was bad or it's wonders either, all that stuff was good, afterall they greatly mourn it don't they? they wouldn't if it were bad. It was the arrogance, addiction and reckless abuse of their magic that was bad, it is that attitude that leads to decadent behaviour and makes opulence disgusting rather than rewarding.

    so naturally you want the civilization back, but with your much better current attitudes.

    So just as you say it leads to this new creativity and another re-invention of themselves, losing their current identity somewhat as you put it. what in fact it is, is the night elves become their Original true selves, the brilliant, benevolent, graceful, curious beings loving life and their world, great at magic and using it for good - their original mandate before they got hooked on power and brought the legion in, well before they became a militarised people constantly fighting monsters and watching for monsters.

    But this time, it's a state with the best of both worlds - in harmony and balance. And they are in the early stages of that. When you read the interview posted in the OP with the dev about the night elves, you can sort of see this is exactly what they gave the Night elves in their two eras, the best of the dark elves and the best of the forest elves, and the wow ear brings the two together so you have literally that happening together.

    This is why when people lump night elves only as forest elves, I have something to say about that, they are both dark elf (arcane) and wood elf (nature) - this is the original intention for them. They are designed with a purpose, to be their own full race. The Thalassians were not designed for that, they were designed to be part of the alliance (then were put on the horde) they have grown somewhat into their own race, but the Night elf was meant to be the full race, this is why it is written as the original elf race, and is given multiple aspects with such strength.. the blood elves get their magic acumen and capability from the night elven side of their heritage, same with their forest prowress the Farstriders have, that comes from the night elven part of them.

    It's usually the racist mind that likes to think that the Highborne ancestors were a different breed or different race to the lowly commoner, and some players have adapted that view, they don't associate anything of the blood elves with the night elves, choosing to adopt the caste's way of referring to the past elves as Highborne only, as if to pretend it's not Night elf or emphasise the distinction by using the term. That's how elitism and racism work. But they are Night elves.. it is because of this there seems to be some disconnect when people think of night elves and blood elves and start thinking of night elves almost like a completely different species - feral and not magical, wild and not civilized, nature not arcane - none of which is true, but it sounds true but only because in their minds they've dissociated the blood elves and their origin from the night elves completely viewing Highborne as a race and that part of night elf history having nothing to do with night elves and existing soley for the purpose of producing the blood elf race - which ofc is not the case. And they get angry at me for calmly and persistently pointing out that Highborne are Night elves and that history is NIGHT ELF history, it's part of the night elves, always will be and still is - having few Highborne doesn't change that - no matter how much they want to make the Highborne insignificant for the night elf.

    They even intentionally ignore that there are other night elf groups, thinking of the Darnassians as the entire race - all of this is fuelled by that mis-conception. Also they find it hard to see that the arcane is very much a part of the night elves even though its practice "AT THIS POINT IN TIME" is not very widespread amongst the Darnassian group. The lore shows its a core part of the race, they will have magic users and wielders, this is where the other elves get it from. This is where the original great talent comes from and they still produce talents in the arcane - arcane talent is not exclusive to Thalassians (or Nightborne) it's there because the night elves have it and they're the only ones that haven't changed. The Thalassians actually devolved a little, the Shalassians kinda gotta very unhealthy, warped in a way that had some nasty side effects their kaldorei Arcan'dor treatment is helping them fix.

    They forget that there is a reason they are called ELVES. and the night elf is where that comes from, its where Elf starts You can't expect them to be something totally different that no other elf group shares and for that part to be some mistake by the devs, or just a throw in purely for gameplay purposes.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The issue you've got is this:

    Not all Night Elves were Druids, during Azshara's reign. In fact, very, very few were in fact Druids. Most Night Elves did live in major cities and were either Priestesses, Guards or Mages, such as we see with Silvermoon and Suramar - both of which were built by Highborne elves. (Yes, the High Elves looked different, but those who created the city and established themselves, were all from Zin-Azshari and possibly Eldre'Thalas, given the lore with Sensiria.)
    Yes, correct, except the citeis were built by Highborne mages and Ancient druids wielding nature magic - [Well of Eternity , WotA] - and we cannot make the assumption those who built the cities were all from Zin'Azshari , it's possible, but it's highly unlikely. It's very likely the Shen'dralar were at the heart of most of the projects, but we don't know for sure. Besides Zin'Azsahri is a massive centre, people will go back and forth, . the High elven progenitors we don't know what their function was before the invasion happened, we just know they worked in the place and were contributing to the portals that were bringing the demons in. The worse Highborne group, the ones closest to the Queen, they are to be admired for turning against her right in the face of the Legion where the rest of their kin in the palace gave themselves wholeheartedly without remorse. Whiles everyone views those in the palace as insane and corrupted, we have to appreciate in the devil's camp, it is quite a feat to resist and turntail in that environment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    But, most of those night elves who lived in those cities are long gone - either they are dead or if they were Highborne, they became other races entirely. The biggest ones being Naga, Satyr and High Elves. The Nightborne change was slow.

    The only ones who remained "Highborne" were those who escaped Zin-Azshari, who became High Elves those in Eldre'Thalas, who took to siphoning fel magic and those in Shandaral, who annoyed the Blue dragons and got themselves killed.

    Now, we're in a situation where it was deemed, by the then High Priestess, Tyrande at Mt Hyjal, that their lives would have to change because the Sundering had only just happened and the troubles of the arcane were finally being discussed and a change of life is what they did. In service to the Dragons, they pledged themselves to Nordrassil's defense and began living a life within the trees of Hyjal, Ashenvale, Moonglade and Darkshore. Now in that time, lifestyles have changed. Said lifestyles weren't enough for the Highborne and due to unfortunate events, they were exiled and established Quel'Thalas.
    Also in this change of lifestyle, did change happen to the majority of the Moon Guard who became Druids and followed Malfurion into the dream. These were mostly done by Male Night Elves and it's possible many of the Female Night Elves became either Priestesses or Sentinels.
    It's the way you phrase this that I find problematic - it gives me insight to how you view the situation - on face value it is correct, but it could be taken in several ways - and it is why in situations like this I tend to comment, giving an addition or restating that with their cities destroyed and having to ban the use of arcane to prevent the return of the Legion, much of their lives changed to fit the new circumstance - this is a commentary adding the information to avoid others assuming the night elves forsook arcane magic because they didn't like it anymore or feel it destroyed their kingdom - common errors made. The Legion destroyed the Kingdom, and they banned the use to prevent their return. The problem of the end of the era wasn't the use of arcane magic for spells, it was the reckless and abusive use of magic fuelled by addiction. - this alone neither warrants a ban nor a penalty of death, for a better society such warrants a detox. A ban on penalty of death , necessitating a very different way of living (due to means changing , not due to philosophy changing - yet another error people make) is mandatory because of the world ending threat use of their Well is deemed to pose. That's why there is a ban.

    You see those who assume it's because they don't like the arcane or they blame the arcane for destroying their kingdom or they hate civilization because they didn' have any during that period are very wrong because they don't understand the circumstances or reason for the lifestyle during the Long Vigil. So when it now has ended in the current post-Vigil era, they would incorrectly make assumptions of the night elves, find it difficult to understand or accept the return of the Highborne, night elves using arcane magic, night elves building cities etc and would wrongly confuse this with their druidic culture - wich leads to people thinking night elves having cities somehow means they're becoming just like the blood elves overall - which is not true, their cities are becoming like Night elf cities were, not ALL the night elves - that's a very different thing. And people shouldn't be surprised that there are aspects of the night elves that are very similar to the blood elves - the Nightborne are evident proof of that, and similar would exist in Night elf cities and areas where the arcane and/or the Highborne are prevalent - these are usually cities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Now let's factor in the number of years: Azshara's Empire happened between 12,000 - 15,000 years ago. At the time of the Sundering, she had been the Queen of the Night Elves for 1000 years.
    Now after the Sundering, the majority of Night Elves spent 10,000 years around Ashenvale with smaller outposts and more warrior-huntress, training camps. They became one with the trees and used that to adapt their trainee's fighting style. A good style, but has been seen to be bested by the likes of Garrosh Hellscream and his Bilgewater Goblins.

    Now down South in Eldre'Thalas, things were going from bad to worse, to shockingly horrendous. They were growing lethargic and Tortheldrin decided to siphon off demonic power to sustain them which worked, but corrupted them and made them grow attached to fel and demonic magic. Whilst Quel'Thalas was flourishing, Eldre'Thalas was falling by the way-side with every passing day. This is just fact and then Tortheldrin grew more mad as he ordered Magister Kelendris to murder the Shen'dralar populace. Now, we keep saying that their is a big night elf mage presence, but we have to really face the facts about this.
    Fel isn't confirmed here, just demonic corruption, anything can corrupt if misued, even the Light, and people with corrupted hearts can misuse good things - how do you think arcane addiction caused such an issue despite the arcane being such a good thing? or the Lightbound are causing such horror, despite wielding the light?

    Oh and Grom's defeat of Cenarius is a stark warning to the night elves that as powerful as nature is it isn't enough for the greater threats. But they know this - it took all their arcane power, and nature power of the wild gods + many races to defeat the legion the first time, and so depleted, with most dead, the best strategy was prevention rather than arm up in the arcane and fight the Legion's power with their own as Illidan hoped they would (while he would use the Legion's power against itself).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Thrice over, the Shen'dralar have been brought down. Once by their Prince and twice by the Horde.
    As of now - I'd say the Shen'dralar have just about grown even more rare than what they were before. It's possibly why the Warfront held very little focus on Night Elf Mages and primarily focused on Druids, Hunters, Archers and Wardens as well as the Night Elves' close alliances with the people of Gilneas. The majority of survivors of Teldrassil would have been those forces that the Warfront focused on, as the Mages were a rare site anyway. Sylvanas just made the Highborne as a whole, even more rare, considering Sarvonis and Ralara were two Highborne who she purposefully targeted, during the War of Thorns.
    I think the warfront was more focused on the people that were fighting in the War of Thorns + new Elune empowerment. My only explanaition for the lack of mages and demon hunters was because they wanted to give the Warcraft 3 groups a nod, something that as popular in the pre-event and hadn't really been done in Warcraft, Darkshore was the version the Kaldorei win instead of lose.

    Next time you see them, you'd likely have all those things there.
    Last edited by Mace; 2020-06-25 at 12:21 AM.

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Night Elves should look older and less beautiful, because they are an old race.
    Blood elves and High Elves were always wrote as majestic and beautiful - they're models reflect that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Night Elves should look older and less beautiful, because they are an old race.
    Blood elves and High Elves were always wrote as majestic and beautiful - they're models reflect that.
    blood elves remain immortals just like nightborne.

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Darnassians don't like highborne, they accept them but would not let them recreate a civilization similar to the old empire.

    The playable night elves have their own culture where the shendrelar are a small minority and I hopefully to see a small shendrelar district in the new capital night elf with a nice mage tower.
    One sentinel BEFORE the Highborne are accepted..i.e. when they are still banned, and angry - issues not resolved.. SO much has happened , and we get far better context on how the society reacts to them in Wolfheart, including major reveals and breakthroughs like Maiev was stirring up Highborne hatred, and when she was caught, acceptance came quickly afterwards.

    So while Daranssians do have a different culture to the Highborne, the highborne are there, and they are a culture. There are several night elf culture.

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    One sentinel BEFORE the Highborne are accepted..i.e. when they are still banned, and angry - issues not resolved.. SO much has happened , and we get far better context on how the society reacts to them in Wolfheart, including major reveals and breakthroughs like Maiev was stirring up Highborne hatred, and when she was caught, acceptance came quickly afterwards.

    So while Daranssians do have a different culture to the Highborne, the highborne are there, and they are a culture. There are several night elf culture.
    and I agree! but the highborne who joined the darnassian are a small group, it was not even the whole of the shendrelar. I hope to see a representation of them as a part of the core culture of playable night elves. that's why i say i would like to see a small highborne district in the new capital.

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    and I agree! but the highborne who joined the darnassian are a small group, it was not even the whole of the shendrelar. I hope to see a representation of them as a part of the core culture of playable night elves. that's why i say i would like to see a small highborne district in the new capital.
    All the remaining Shen'dralar joined, I use to think it was like 20 odd, but I now think it was in the hundreds mark, my guess would be around 200 to 500.

    Game representation is only a fraction.

    Well, I'd like the Highborne to design their new city, and tbh the biggest difference between a Highborne district and say a tradesman/craftsman or temple district would be a lot less over flowing nature. But that's my hope.

  17. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    All the remaining Shen'dralar joined, I use to think it was like 20 odd, but I now think it was in the hundreds mark, my guess would be around 200 to 500.
    Given the multiple tiers of attrition that the Shen'dralar have suffered, I'd say your numbers are very optimistic. They weren't plentiful to begin with, have been winnowed down as Tortheldrin sacrificed them over the Long Vigil to feed the binding trapping Immol'thar as their energy source. They were reduced further when the Horde invaded Dire Maul, killing Tortheldrin and his inner circle. They fled to the wilds where I imagine even more of them likely perished before making their way to find refuge in Darnassus. Several of them were also killed in the events of Wolfheart.

    I'd estimate that at the time Mordent Evenshade and his followers settled in Darnassus there were likely 50 to 100 Shen'dralar left.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Given the multiple tiers of attrition that the Shen'dralar have suffered, I'd say your numbers are very optimistic. They weren't plentiful to begin with, have been winnowed down as Tortheldrin sacrificed them over the Long Vigil to feed the binding trapping Immol'thar as their energy source. They were reduced further when the Horde invaded Dire Maul, killing Tortheldrin and his inner circle. They fled to the wilds where I imagine even more of them likely perished before making their way to find refuge in Darnassus. Several of them were also killed in the events of Wolfheart.

    I'd estimate that at the time Mordent Evenshade and his followers settled in Darnassus there were likely 50 to 100 Shen'dralar left.
    A year ago, I would have said that was very generous, but I'm likely thinking those numbers.


    I think they would have been a bustling city at their peak, that would probably be 1,200 years ago, when the net gain from Immol'thar's power gain started resulting in a power draw, and the Prince starting to kill others .. then the slow but steady decline in that last millennium to current.

    We kill Immol'thar but not the Highborne trying to stop it which is why I revised my estimate to as much as half a thousand. Alas we won't really know. They really don't like giving numbers in Warcraft, I understand why, but detail really helps people like me with our fantasies.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    ...
    Regarding spellcaster hate

    My impression is that, as you pointed out, night elves started with huge hatred towards Azshara's closest, who consorted with Legion and betrayed their nation. Most of these elves transformed into satyr and naga. I guess large part of these were killed during Sundering.

    What remained in the hearts of kaldorei, was fear. They witnessed how Legion works. They saw that Legion is endless and almost burned the whole world to ashes. They felt responsible for their invasion. Now I can imagine there was great frustration among their ranks. Threat of abuse of Well of Eternity was still here. Was it possible to bring Legion back to Azeroth? Yes, it was. Who was most likely to do it? Highborne, whose use of magic was the original cause of the calamity. It was logical of the community to blame Highborne, and it is clear that their initial hatred was reserved for them. After years, Highborne were exiled. Some of the elves remembered what happened in WotA. I think some other elves, those who were born after those events, inherited mistrust and hatred towards magic from their parents, but possibly lack the connection to Highborne. They likely never met them, since they were exiled already. Those elves didn't experienced wonders of magic. They were told it is dangerous practise which will ultimately corrupt you and bring Legion to this world. Those elves rose in the Light of Elune or in the practise of druidism. That's how mistrust and in some cases, open hostility towards magic users, take root.

    Now, as kaldorei joined the Alliance, they saw that spellcaster are not all about reckless use of magic. They are not all powerhungry. Over the years, they corrected their views. I believe draenei could be huge factor in this, since they are very proficient in magic, and they remained pure. There was also draenei emissary, a mage trainer I believe, standing next to Tyrande.

    Regarding Elune
    Elune definitely has strong affinity towards arcane. I have my own personal theory about Elune - Elune is in fact Azeroth.
    - titans are beings of order, highly connected to arcane
    - Elune slept in the Well of Eternity. We know that Well was a wound caused by extraction of the Old God. It's logical that waters of the well were mixed with her "blood"
    - She reflects her powers through the moon orbiting the planet
    - Azeroth is considered to be the most powerful titan. Could it be that she is in fact titan capable of wielding both Light and Void? We've seen Elune having two faces, it could line up nicely.

    I know it is not the most convincing theory, but I quite like it. It somewhat reinforces the image of night elves as defenders of the Azeroth, having their faith connected to the living soul of the world.

    Now, to the dark side of Elune. Night Warrior powers are shown to be some mix of void and arcane powers. It is not really confirmed, we are now speculating only based on animation we've seen in game. I wonder if void elves will ever want to find out more of this. We've seen worgen joined the Army of the Black Moon. Could ren'dorei join them too? I believe they would be most interested in the whole ritual and the very nature of Night Warrior. It could be a bridge between two races.

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Regarding Elune
    Elune definitely has strong affinity towards arcane. I have my own personal theory about Elune - Elune is in fact Azeroth.
    - titans are beings of order, highly connected to arcane
    - Elune slept in the Well of Eternity. We know that Well was a wound caused by extraction of the Old God. It's logical that waters of the well were mixed with her "blood"
    - She reflects her powers through the moon orbiting the planet
    - Azeroth is considered to be the most powerful titan. Could it be that she is in fact titan capable of wielding both Light and Void? We've seen Elune having two faces, it could line up nicely.

    I know it is not the most convincing theory, but I quite like it. It somewhat reinforces the image of night elves as defenders of the Azeroth, having their faith connected to the living soul of the world.

    Now, to the dark side of Elune. Night Warrior powers are shown to be some mix of void and arcane powers. It is not really confirmed, we are now speculating only based on animation we've seen in game. I wonder if void elves will ever want to find out more of this. We've seen worgen joined the Army of the Black Moon. Could ren'dorei join them too? I believe they would be most interested in the whole ritual and the very nature of Night Warrior. It could be a bridge between two races.
    Elune is most likely not Azeroth.
    - Titans don't have different sides to them as far as we know
    - From what Khadgar tells us she is longer around then Azeroth, and was there in there great ordering
    - Xal'atath calls here an upstart-goddess if she was a titan.. she would have her called that
    - Elune sleeping in the Well is just something that night elf believe.

    Elune has some connection to the Titans, her language is titan-like. But maybe the titan got the language from her, since she is probably longer around then them.
    Personally I would have prefered if Elune was something Azeroth specific and I'm pretty sure she was at some point in the past, but the devs wanted to do something else with her.

    Regarding Ren'dorei, I can see certainly some connection to some recent night elf stuff.
    Shen'dralar experimenting with void magic.
    The dark moon stuff is a big maybe... maybe Elune can provide Void magic without hearing voices and getting tentacles? Its hard to say.

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