1. #2161
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantique View Post
    All I can say is that without the interactions between Joel and Ellie, and a conclusion to the conflict hinted at between them at the end of TLoU, the sequel already had a near-impossible task of convincing me smashing Joel into his grave before I've even had a single non-intro interaction between him and Ellie was a good idea. Trying to have me not want the catharsis of throwing Abby into a pit of clickers by the final confrontation is a narrative feat I don't think any developer could pull off, and sadly I don't consume media I classify like that. I also stopped watching the Walking Dead in the season Negan was introduced, because they kept puling shit upon shit on "my" team, and subverted every expected catharsis from getting back at them.

    I really hope a miracle happens, as I've been looking forward to this game since its announcement. I am afraid I'm gonna regret letting my gf convince me to pay full price for it though.
    Not to spoil anything but the game makes liberal use of flashbacks.

  2. #2162
    Quote Originally Posted by everydaygamer View Post
    On another note how is it that despite the accusations of Abby being trans that no one seems to be outraged over the actual trans character. I was surprised that this was the one thing not spoiled for me.
    I didn't know there was a trans character in the game until I played up to that part.

    The only controversy I knew of, and still know of, was concerning Joel and Abby being the lead in the second half of the game. Neither of which I thought were big deal spoilers or shocking.

    I was more surprised that people actually had an attachment Joel from the first game. I thought he was a villain at the end of the first game made all the worst by his outright lie. The ambiguous look Ellie gives Joel at the end as they drive away was, prior to this sequel, obvious to me that the writers intended the audience to question his actions as a very serious ethical problem.

    All of these people are wretched human beings.

  3. #2163
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    Finished the game, loved it.

    I actually felt like there are a lot of parallels between Abby and TLOU1 Joel. Both start out doing their own thing, get guilt-tripped into helping kids out of the city (Abby guilt-trips herself, admittedly, while Joel needs Tess to guilt-trip him), and by the end of the game genuinely care for the kid. Abby carrying Lev to the boat reminded me of Joel carrying Ellie out of the hospital. The gameplay kind of reflects this too, with Abby having to use shivs unlike Ellie, and she even gets the flamethrower. Then again maybe I'm reading too much into that

    After spending most of my playthrough meticulously combing every area for loot and stealth-killing most encounters to hoard all the things, it also felt very satisfying to pretty much go rambo towards the end of the game. The hospital basement boss for Abby was just a festival of pipe bombs, flamethrower fire and shotgun shots, and then on the island i pretty much went ham with my other weapons. With Ellie I just annihilated the Rattlers at the end of the game with all my explosive toys.

  4. #2164
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I didn't know there was a trans character in the game until I played up to that part.

    The only controversy I knew of, and still know of, was concerning Joel and Abby being the lead in the second half of the game. Neither of which I thought were big deal spoilers or shocking.

    I was more surprised that people actually had an attachment Joel from the first game. I thought he was a villain at the end of the first game made all the worst by his outright lie. The ambiguous look Ellie gives Joel at the end as they drive away was, prior to this sequel, obvious to me that the writers intended the audience to question his actions as a very serious ethical problem.

    All of these people are wretched human beings.
    I was the same way I don't understand why people were so outraged, yeah he was a good character but he wasn't That great. If Ellie died then I would understand the outrage but not for Joel.

    That said I do like Joel and the song in the credits is absolutely heartbreaking.

  5. #2165
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I thought that Upper Echelon Gamers review was particularly informative.

    https://youtu.be/A5bw4CmLZcY

    Basically brute forcing the player into feeling a certain way with unfair, out of character actions amd poor storytelling. :/

    Not sure I 100% agree, but he makes a powerful case.
    as i wrote about at length in an earlier post Upper Echelon Gamers has a pretty awful review where he shows a complete lack of understanding about the characters there settings or what they have been though to build there emotional states. he's comply oblivious to all the under lying traits and links that make the characters what they are.

    on top of all of that he ends review sniffing his own farts while trying to act like its reviewers standing on a pedestal shouting down just because he lacks an understanding of basic things shown to you in game.

  6. #2166
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I thought that Upper Echelon Gamers review was particularly informative.

    https://youtu.be/A5bw4CmLZcY

    Basically brute forcing the player into feeling a certain way with unfair, out of character actions amd poor storytelling. :/

    Not sure I 100% agree, but he makes a powerful case.
    You can't pay me money to watch any of that dude's YT content. Hard no.

  7. #2167
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    as i wrote about at length in an earlier post Upper Echelon Gamers has a pretty awful review where he shows a complete lack of understanding about the characters there settings or what they have been though to build there emotional states. he's comply oblivious to all the under lying traits and links that make the characters what they are.

    on top of all of that he ends review sniffing his own farts while trying to act like its reviewers standing on a pedestal shouting down just because he lacks an understanding of basic things shown to you in game.
    I can't say I agree with that. But I haven't seen much to refute his take on it.

    Granted, I haven't gone out of my way to track down positive reviews with much depth, only wjat shows up in my feed. If you have a link to something like that, I'd be interested in seeing the other side of the discussion.

    Edit: I realized just now you might have linked something earlier. If so, sorry I didn't see it.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-06-25 at 04:01 AM.

  8. #2168
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I can't say I agree with that. But I haven't seen much to refute his take on it.

    Granted, I haven't gone out of my way to track down positive reviews with much depth, only wjat shows up in my feed. If you have a link to something like that, I'd be interested in seeing the other side of the discussion.

    Edit: I realized just now you might have linked something earlier. If so, sorry I didn't see it.
    I broke down the problems with some of his views in this post here.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52445904

    Obviously I didn’t go over his whole review and left some more detailed stuff out to avoid spamming the spoiler tag, these are just what I thought was the major things he missed and how it cast doubt into the whole review when this stuff is blindly obvious. I could likely break down every little thing in the review that points to it over all being pretty garbage but I don’t really see a point unless some one wants to bring up something specific.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2020-06-25 at 04:33 AM.

  9. #2169
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I can't say I agree with that. But I haven't seen much to refute his take on it.

    Granted, I haven't gone out of my way to track down positive reviews with much depth, only wjat shows up in my feed. If you have a link to something like that, I'd be interested in seeing the other side of the discussion.

    Edit: I realized just now you might have linked something earlier. If so, sorry I didn't see it.
    I have become part of the cancel culture...in order to stop the cancel culture...
    Lets see the past of this youtuber...oh look...he is one of those

    https://i.imgur.com/ymkmwDM.jpg

    He also used the word "woke" on a recent video title.

    Yeah...not a biased youtuber at all...

  10. #2170
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    I have become part of the cancel culture...in order to stop the cancel culture...
    Lets see the past of this youtuber...oh look...he is one of those

    https://i.imgur.com/ymkmwDM.jpg

    He also used the word "woke" on a recent video title.

    Yeah...not a biased youtuber at all...
    UEG very much does his research and attempts to be as objective as he can. He admits his faults, and when he's wrong he not only apologizes, but will make a video correcting things.


    I strongly recommend not just taking a cursory glace and leaping to conclusions with him. The video in question where he uses "woke" or "sjw" in the title is a good example, and you should really watch the entire video to give it the proper context for it.

    I would hope that anyone who's asking for a more fair opinion on TLOU2 would understand this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    . Abbie is a solider part of a fighting force she only joined because of joel's actions shes clearly been taught to and has adjusted to a more brutal way of life then ellie with her comparatively peaceful setting with joel. this is the whole crux of abbie's arc she's the solder who wants to stop fighting she wants to change her ways.
    How do you reconcile this with her actions in regards to Joel after being saved by him? Those don't seem like the actions of someone who wants to change, but I guess there could be an explanation that makes sense.

    I pass no judgements. I'm interested in the different perspective on this. Pretty heavy spoilers are possible. Send me a PM if you want to go into detail.

  11. #2171
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    UEG very much does his research
    Anyone who writes click bait titles about "SJWs ruining gaming" doesn't really get the benefit of the doubt in this regard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    How do you reconcile this with her actions in regards to Joel after being saved by him? Those don't seem like the actions of someone who wants to change, but I guess there could be an explanation that makes sense.
    Joel didn't just "save her" they saved each other as without her help and her allies Joel and Tommy where toast with the size of that horde and being pinned down.

  12. #2172
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post

    How do you reconcile this with her actions in regards to Joel after being saved by him? Those don't seem like the actions of someone who wants to change, but I guess there could be an explanation that makes sense.

    I pass no judgements. I'm interested in the different perspective on this. Pretty heavy spoilers are possible. Send me a PM if you want to go into detail.
    The thing is it's only after Joel's death that she wanted to change. His death greatly affected her and her friends to the point that they started drifting apart. Now keep in mind they don't regret killing him but the way Abby chose to kill him shook them and herself to the point where she felt she needed to help Yara and Lev as a way to possibly balance the scales which ultimately leads to her changing for the better, in the same way, helping Ellie changed Joel.

  13. #2173
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    I have become part of the cancel culture...in order to stop the cancel culture...
    Lets see the past of this youtuber...oh look...he is one of those

    https://i.imgur.com/ymkmwDM.jpg

    He also used the word "woke" on a recent video title.

    Yeah...not a biased youtuber at all...
    Totally, looks at the title of two videos and then presumes to know the content creator.

  14. #2174
    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    Totally, looks at the title of two videos and then presumes to know the content creator.
    The entire channel is clickbait headlines about SJW boogeyman nonsense. There's better takes on why the game has significant flaws.

  15. #2175
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    How do you reconcile this with her actions in regards to Joel after being saved by him? Those don't seem like the actions of someone who wants to change, but I guess there could be an explanation that makes sense.

    I pass no judgements. I'm interested in the different perspective on this. Pretty heavy spoilers are possible. Send me a PM if you want to go into detail.
    Well pretty much spoilers for all of abbie’s part then, almost all of this is pretty explicitly shown through out the game and incredibly hard to miss.

    Abbie doesn’t want to change until after she kills Joel. She’s a character who is very much defined by Joel Mabye more so then ellie. She joins the wolf’s after Joel kills her dad and starts training as a soldier so she can be fit to find him. She acts in there war with the scars for years because of this until she finally has a lead on Joel and finally kills him.

    After words her social group starts to fall apart and she continues to have nightmares about her fathers death. Getting revenge on Joel didn’t solve any thing like she thought it would she didn’t feel better about her dads death and her friends start to fall away form her for one reason or another. You see this with Mel when they talk about Joel and how Mel has been distant since his death and you see this with Owen as he wants an end to the violence and shoots Danny because of it.

    Abbie like Owen doesn’t want to keep going she doesn’t stick around with the wolf’s to end the scar threat she goes after Owen in contrast to her leaving Owen to join the wolf’s war. While doing so she finds lev and his sister and saves/is saved by them. This could have been nothing if she was like the other wolf’s she would have had no problem leaving them to fend for her self or just kill them because scars are scars. Instead of sticking to what the wolf’s believe and what she’s been taught to embrace by them she goes back for the siblings at no gain of her own and then puts her self at great risk for them not only against scars but her own people the wolf’s.

    She could have stuck around when she’s captured gone back to the war and likely have faced no consequences as Issac needs high ranking people like her. Instead she goes back to lev to save her sister.

    After words she could still go back still likely get off with nothing but a reprimand but instead she wants to get away from it all away from the war from the killing leave with Owen the siblings and Mel and try and find the fireflys to try and rekindle what she had before joining the wolf’s before her revenge which brought her no solace, at this prospect Mel rightfully points out that Abbie isn’t a good person and she can’t just change into one Abbie even agrees with her. Lev's sister try’s to tell abbie other wise but clearly she’s not feeling it.

    Jumping forward a bit Abbie is with lev when there confronted by Isaac and the other Abbie try’s to be reasonable explain that lev is just a kid and not a scar any more, when the wolf’s don’t listen she still stands for lev a kid she’s know for about a day after having years of fighting lev’s people as she says after they get away lev is her people now not the wolf’s. Abbie flatly rejects the old ways she followed as the memeber of the wolf’s and try’s to do nothing but protect lev so they can get away from the whole war and try and go with Owen to then the fire flys.

    When she gets back however Owen is dead Mel is dead her dog is dead. This is clearly impactful for Abbie but she falls back into what she was taught as a member of the wolf’s she goes after who ever did it. When she finds ellie and co she clearly upset, not only that her friend's were murdered but that the people that she decided to let go were the ones that did it.

    With all of this build up losing every one she knows breaking all of her ties to her community knowing that she is in a way responsible she goes rather berserk. She blindly chases after ellie and after a rather long fight finds her self back where she was before with Ellie on the ground unable to do any thing while she holds Dina’s life in her hands just like she did Joel. She’s very much so in the same state of mind she’s found the people who took every thing from her and has them at her mercy she can kill them and get her revenge just like she did with Joel. And then lev comes in. Lev at this point is still some one she barley knows but he still acts like a kind of focal point for clarity. Abbie is left with only the reminders of the last few days as she spend them trying to help and protect other people much like she did as a firefly and how killing Joel didn’t actual change any thing. Instead of repeating what she did with Joel she puts the knife down, she walks away from the whole thing and leaves with lev planning to find the fire flys and put ellie the wolf’s the scars every thing behind her to try and go back to what she had before.

    Skipping forward to ellie finding them again Abbie isn’t looking for revenge for Owen or Mel Abbie has at this point put it behind her all she cares about is keeping lev safe and continuing to move on. When ellie threaten her she only reacts by saying she’s not gonna do this again and it’s only when Abbie puts a knife to lev that she reacts begrudgingly.


    Abbies whole arc past killing Joel is her trying to change do better She slips upon that trail but with the help of lev mange’s to stick to it knowing that her revenge didn’t actual Improve any thing.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2020-06-25 at 06:21 AM.

  16. #2176
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    UEG very much does his research and attempts to be as objective as he can. He admits his faults, and when he's wrong he not only apologizes, but will make a video correcting things.
    Bruh, the dude is the epitome of "act first, think later." He rides the high of sensationalism then when people (rightfully) call him out on his bullshit he either backtracks or gaslights his fucking audience in an attempt to downplay his actions. People like him are far more harmful for the gaming community than the supposed "shills" he so fervently tries to rally against. I have no fucking idea how you can watch that guy's content and come away with the idea that he's "objective."
    Last edited by Relapses; 2020-06-25 at 07:11 AM.

  17. #2177
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    So no one will comment of how the hell Tommy survived being shot in the face at point blank?

    I love the game and I enjoyed it a lot and almost getting platinum trophy on it. But that doesnt mean I have to sugar coat all of the BS and things that doesnt make sense at all.

  18. #2178
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    So no one will comment of how the hell Tommy survived being shot in the face at point blank?
    To be fair, that is possible.

  19. #2179
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    So no one will comment of how the hell Tommy survived being shot in the face at point blank?

    I love the game and I enjoyed it a lot and almost getting platinum trophy on it. But that doesnt mean I have to sugar coat all of the BS and things that doesnt make sense at all.
    Getting shot in the head doesn't necessarily guarantee death depending on what the bullet actually hits and his face was definitely messed up afterwards.

  20. #2180
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    Quote Originally Posted by everydaygamer View Post
    Getting shot in the head doesn't necessarily guarantee death depending on what the bullet actually hits and his face was definitely messed up afterwards.
    I agree if there was some distance between them and if the bullets are weak and almost not lethal for humans then yes but the distance was point blank from a well trained professional soldier not from an amatuer.

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