Could it be time for Universal Basic Income discussion?

[PC2]

Automation has nowhere reached the level where it's feasible over glorified slave labor as we have it today. And it won't reach that level in the next 10 years, most likely not even 20. Anyone who has had the opportunity to design a machine for semi-general use or even just specialized use knows that the effort is far too big to automate everything right now. We can't even do it properly with simple data mangement that atm still requires people to punch in numbers in forms that haven't changed in 30 years.

And not only that but even if we did automate most of our current shitty jobs over the next 50 years there's still no guarantee that it wouldn't lead into entirely new and different kinds of shitty jobs. My guess is that jobs will incrementally become more dignified over time however there is absolutely no guarantee of this since the future of work is entirely unpredictable.

[Zan15]

And who is going to pay for all that?

I pay enough taxes as it is. In-between income tax, healthcare tax, pension fund, car taxes/tolls, VAT on top of all that later on - 50% of what I earn evaporates right there. You can go your socialist dream crap all you like, but I am not interested paying additional dime from my hard-earned paycheck.

With this coronavirus we ended up doing pretty much what amounts to said universal basic income for all those million+ people on unpaid leave and the result is +10% debt-to-GDP in a matter of 3 months and guess who's going to cover this shit? Me. Finance already starts mentally preparing everyone for extra taxes. It's not sustainable.

I don't know maybe cut things like.... the military budget....corporate subsidies....FARM UBI.....

Also when you pay taxes on healthcare and pensions it does not evaporate it gets invested in a future product you will use. That's called an investment.


As for whom is going to cover it. Everyone. As its almost impossible to not pay taxes in one way or another to fund all these types of programs.


As far as sustainability, the investment of 1,000 bucks would result in an economic increase that would see much of the money spent recouped as long as a few other changes are made on top of UBI.

On the opposite end of the spectrum is you being left with a bigger and bigger pile of tax responsibility as things like the Military, roads, police, etc will have to be paid by the people left with jobs and income.

[Yadryonych]

Trickle down economics definitely has been shown to work.

We invested 3300 per person into companies.... they took the money, lowered wages, laid off people, bought up their own stock.

This isn't exactly what I meant, I mean government should nationalise existent companies or create new ones to employ people. Instead of just giving money to people they can hire people and give them money for actually doing something. Something like Works Progress Administration that helped back then during the previous Great Depression

[cubby]

Yeah I’m with you on this to deny UBI is going to have to come down to basic human rights.

Humans need, not simply want, food, clean drinking water, shelter and medicine period.

To pretend there are enough jobs or without basic resources provided that it won’t lead to crime is idiotic.


You need these things that doesn’t just go away because of what others think you should do with your life.

UBI might be too soon buts we need to have the conversation in all countries.

Agreed. It will probably come about separately in each country. I really don't see any kind of functional world government for at least another 100 years - and that feels very optimistic. But UBI can be implemented country by country, and truly address basic human rights at the same time. Unfortunately, I see the United States (my country) having a very difficult time putting it into place, as we already lag literally every developed country in healthcare coverage.

[Cosmic Janitor]

And not only that but even if we did automate most of our current shitty jobs over the next 50 years there's still no guarantee that it wouldn't lead into entirely new and different kinds of shitty jobs. My guess is that jobs will incrementally become more dignified over time however there is absolutely no guarantee of this since the future of work is entirely unpredictable.

Frankly I just see no indicator that jobs will become more dignified. The trend of increasing specialisation will continue, slowly nibbling at the heels of trade realted skills, while more and more people at the lower end of the spectrum seem to be working in service jobs of some kind. Automatisation really hits hard in manufacturing and monitoring related jobs, the later might be able to upgrade to design related tasks, wheres the former will get automated, but it's unlikely that they will upgrade. I think it will just lead to a flooding of the service sector, making their conditions even worse since the supply will exceed the demand even more.

At the end of the day the biggest hurdle for UBI is the sheer fact that you don't implement it in a new system and start the system with it. You come out of a system like our current one and you have to keep the current system running while making these changes. To prevent your system from run-away effects that would inadvertedly crash it you need to regulate it hard. And not just the financial system, many aspects of life. To get away with such a change you need quite the significant impetus and a critical mass of acceptance in the population. Highly unlikely that it will happen anytime soon. I'm not even conviced that you could gradually shift the system, since every single cent of "free" money will immediately be featured into everyday prices, negating the feasibility of increased incomes to slowly ease people into it.

[Themius]

This isn't exactly what I meant, I mean government should nationalise existent companies or create new ones to employ people. Instead of just giving money to people they can hire people and give them money for actually doing something. Something like Works Progress Administration that helped back then during the previous Great Depression

When did you become a Bernie bro.

[Yadryonych]

When did you become a Bernie bro.

Well since this thread supposes bernism is necessary there must be at least more reasonable form of it than just throwing money at people for nothing

[Omega10]

Well since this thread supposes bernism is necessary there must be at least more reasonable form of it than just throwing money at people for nothing

It is becoming more and more clear that some form of Bernism (is that what we are calling it now?) will be necessary. President Biden is likely to fight it as hard as he can, but if things go well the pressure to do SOMETHING will motivate people to work together and come up with something that eases us into a world that is better for blacks and hispanics, better for workers, better for those unemployed, so on and so forth.

President Biden will only be able to sweep this stuff under the rug but for so long.

[Unholyground]

When the unemployment rate is low, people who have jobs would vote against UBI.
The only reason you see this topic is because the unemployment is high right now.

US is almost impossible.
Look at how selfish these companies are. They fire people before the lockdown happens.

People are selfish too, a lot of people in the US especially from what I have seen are against anything that helps other people, but that could be a a direct result of corporate and government greed.

[Twdft]

UBI at the moment only stands a chance to work if you also implement incentives for people to work, somehow manage to regulate the markets to prevent massive inflation and there is a general humanitarian mentality in your population. None of that is even remotely likely in the current US.

Incentitive to work is already innate to UBI because everyone would be getting UBI not only people out of work. UBI should cover the basics = don't starve, have a roof over your head, basic health care and a bus pass. If that's all you want from life just stay at home. You will still be a consumer because you gotta eat and cloth yourself.

Now imagine you want something better, a car instead of a bus pass maybe or a big screen TV. Find some work. And opposite to now you will also have a lot more bargaining power towards employers: since you can just say fuck it I stay home with UBI employers will have to actually make your working conditions bearable. This will benefit jobs that are currently minimum wage much more than today. Today people are only working themselves to the bone for minimum wage because they'd starve under a bridge otherwise. Good luck finding wage slaves when everyone gets UBI, shit jobs that still have to be done will be paid better.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Incentitive to work is already innate to UBI because everyone would be getting UBI not only people out of work. UBI should cover the basics = don't starve, have a roof over your head, basic health care and a bus pass. If that's all you want from life just stay at home. You will still be a consumer because you gotta eat and cloth yourself.

Now imagine you want something better, a car instead of a bus pass maybe or a big screen TV. Find some work. And opposite to now you will also have a lot more bargaining power towards employers: since you can just say fuck it I stay home with UBI employers will have to actually make your working conditions bearable. This will benefit jobs that are currently minimum wage much more than today. Today people are only working themselves to the bone for minimum wage because they'd starve under a bridge otherwise. Good luck finding wage slaves when everyone gets UBI, shit jobs that still have to be done will be paid better.

That is true in theory, but as someone from a country with a decent welfare system I can tell you that it's not that easy. The base coverage can already be enough for people (without kids..) to easily get by, it all depends on your standards and how much you want to splurge. There are also vast differences in required money to meet the base demands because of regional differences. This is already true here in Bavaria, it is probably even worse in the US. Determining what is the minimum is far from trivial in practice. You also invite alot of healthcare issues because garbage food tends to be cheaper in many places, leading to obesity and further increasing lethargy. UBI comes with a very hefty dose of social engineering attached to it, something that shouldn't be underestimated.

[BeepBoo]

I'd rather not be responsible for supporting a potentially unlimited number of scrubs.
I'd rather not enable people to be lazier than they already are.
I'd rather not encourage people to take more from the system than they'll ever put in.

I'd rather accept the shortcomings and unfortunate events that result from no universal anything. Weakness is something to be abhorred.

You will still be a consumer because you gotta eat and cloth yourself.

Lel. Everyone should feel so lucky to provide ME with things I want, eh?
The privilege of caring for others, eh?

No thanks.

[Clone]

Govermnent invesing money into industries to create more jobs and provide people with fishing rod, not with fish, maybe?

The problem is when fishing rods get more efficient, less fishers are needed.

[kamuimac]

This isn't exactly what I meant, I mean government should nationalise existent companies or create new ones to employ people. Instead of just giving money to people they can hire people and give them money for actually doing something. Something like Works Progress Administration that helped back then during the previous Great Depression

so... communism

at the end of day each of those threads end when people who openly support communistic claims take over the discussion .

i get it - most people are lazy and just dont want to work - therefore they dream about dystopia where they can stay at home and plan computer games all day long. but who will sponsor that ?

and ye - corporation - those entities which can shut down their operations and move to another country which doesnt tax them .

[Themius]

I'd rather not be responsible for supporting a potentially unlimited number of scrubs.
I'd rather not enable people to be lazier than they already are.
I'd rather not encourage people to take more from the system than they'll ever put in.

I'd rather accept the shortcomings and unfortunate events that result from no universal anything. Weakness is something to be abhorred.



Lel. Everyone should feel so lucky to provide ME with things I want, eh?
The privilege of caring for others, eh?

No thanks.

Are you the person from where all taxes would come from? Why is the prospect of helping other people such a problem for you? You're a republican aren't you, you must be.

Everything from UBI has shown people save, budget better, learn new skills for better jobs So stop living in your falsity.

Take more from system than they put in? Does that men you want to tax the wealthy?

Also weakness? Are you like an edgy 14 year old? Thats the only type of person I can think fo to say something this foolish.

People with your views often tend to be broken, poor, jaded people who would serve themselves and the community they live in more by speaking with a professional who can help you with your emotional issues.

You spout right wing talking points, but it's always the centre light side pulling the right wing out of their own shit and propping up their poor ass states because they have no fucking clue how to manage money.

"Hey we can't money what do we do, do we invest infrastructure, job training, healthcare?"

"No! you give that shit all to the top 0.01% it'll trickle back down!"

a year later

OH SHIT WE HAVE NO MONEY that's okay! We will just take it from New York and California!

What is up with people who hate the concept of society?

If you hate society so much why do you not fuck off and live in a forest somewhere?

Why are you using the internet? other people paid for that, through tax dollars. How dare you ride on roads, do you truly think your few dollars paid for the roads?

[Yadryonych]

so... communism

I'd say giving money away is much more communism

[kamuimac]

I'd say giving money away is much more communism

both are different approach but end up with the same resoults.

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Margaret Thatcher

was true back then - will be true forever.

[BeepBoo]

Are you the person from where all taxes would come from? Why is the prospect of helping other people such a problem for you? You're a republican aren't you, you must be.

Nope.

Everything from UBI has shown people save, budget better, learn new skills for better jobs So stop living in your falsity.

Just because they improve themselves doesn't mean they improve themselves to the level where they make enough or contribute enough to justify however much the good "basic" quality of life they'd be getting. It's not about that. It's about if they're worth it or not. We don't NEED more humans. Humans will keep fucking and having kids regardless of literally anything else.

Take more from system than they put in? Does that men you want to tax the wealthy?

No, I mean say it takes like 50k goods to sustain someone "comfortably. If they can't or couldn't get to something that gets them that much societal worth in a laissez faire market society, they are literally not worth other people's time.

Also weakness? Are you like an edgy 14 year old? Thats the only type of person I can think fo to say something this foolish.

Cool, but a disabled person who doesn't have a network of support involving ONLY individuals who would want to take that burden on is weaker than someone who does not need that support. The person who doesn't need it also doesn't have to worry about if they need it or not. Pretty beautiful, eh?

People with your views often tend to be broken, poor, jaded people who would serve themselves and the community they live in more by speaking with a professional who can help you with your emotional issues.

A shame I'm high in the IT chain and my wife is a doctor the ripe old age of 30 living in a place where most of the other people are farmers.

You spout right wing talking points, but it's always the centre light side pulling the right wing out of their own shit and propping up their poor ass states because they have no fucking clue how to manage money.

Also not true, but nice try engaging in a hasty generalization, desperately looking for some reason.

"No! you give that shit all to the top 0.01% it'll trickle back down!"

Not at all, I don't believe in trickle down.

What is up with people who hate the concept of society?

100% nothing against society. 100% everything against a society that tries to assume a potentially unlimited amount of burden at the expense of people who are already living comfortably just because some people start to have hard times. Say everyone would have to eat half of what they currently do and have for everyone to get on with life. Are you really going to ask people to sacrifice half of their food and reduce their quality of life that much just to carry someone when they could just let that person go and keep the same? Nah. I wouldn't wish that on anyone if it were me struggling.

If you hate society so much why do you not fuck off and live in a forest somewhere?

Again, nothing against society. Why do you think society necessarily means defacto "cares and supports 100% of it's constituents"?

Why are you using the internet? other people paid for that, through tax dollars. How dare you ride on roads, do you truly think your few dollars paid for the roads?

Ignoring the fact that I'm all for society that does not coerce it's constituents into anything... What makes you think the only way any of those things get built is if the government does it?

[Twdft]

Weakness is something to be abhorred.

Before it makes sense arguing with you, you should think about the simple fact that every single one of us is a human. Also: human dignity, what is it and why is it important. Circling back to the everyone is human thought.

You don't understand any of this.

[kamuimac]

Before it makes sense arguing with you, you should think about the simple fact that every single one of us is a human. Also: human dignity, what is it and why is it important. Circling back to the everyone is human thought.

You don't understand any of this.

"human dignity"

so you fight for dignity of people who devoid themselves out of it themsleves by demanding that someone else take care of them because its their dignified right just because they breath

people like you is what is wrong with society nowadays - instead focusing on improving themselves people rather demand that someone resolves their problems for them.

thats why humankind developement has been always historicaly so slow.