Could it be time for Universal Basic Income discussion?

[Masark]

both are different approach but end up with the same resoults.

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Margaret Thatcher

was true back then - will be true forever.

The problem with capitalism is that you eventually run out of other people's money as well.

If wealth becomes concentrated, the entire concept of a consumer economy falls apart, because almost no one has any money to spend.

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so you fight for dignity of people who devoid themselves out of it themsleves by demanding that someone else take care of them because its their dignified right just because they breath

Whereas you prostrate yourself before those who have that exact ideology, except that they believe so because they crawled out of the vagina of someone wealthy.

[kamuimac]

The problem with capitalism is that you eventually run out of other people's money as well.

If wealth becomes concentrated, the entire concept of a consumer economy falls apart, because almost no one has any money to spend.

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Whereas you prostrate yourself before those who have that exact ideology, except that they believe so because they crawled out of the vagina of someone wealthy.

thank you for proving me that i was 100% right.

communistic claims nothing more.

i could tell you exact mechanism from psychology that communist use to manipulate people but doubt you would understand it.

gonna say just 1 thing - you play exackly 100% into how mechanism of "nessesity to have defined oponent" combined with "scapegoat" operate

its such basic psychological tool - and it works so proficently each time .

thats why its so easy to manipulate uneducated people .

thats why proper education is so important - and why most goverments prefer dumbed down uneducated society

[BeepBoo]

Before it makes sense arguing with you, you should think about the simple fact that every single one of us is a human.

That has almost no meaning to me other than we share a species. Being born isn't special. Being human isn't special. Being a capable human that epitomizes human capabilities is special.

Also: human dignity, what is it and why is it important. Circling back to the everyone is human thought.

Human dignity or any other fancy way of saying "everyone is special and deserves life at the expense of everyone else" are all bullshit illogical arguments. Humanity's existence as a whole being "good" isn't even a universality, let alone the existence of any given individual. About the only thing that you can logically say is that a human exists. Whether or not that matters is completely and utterly up to every other given individual.

You don't understand any of this.

I understand that it's bullshit some people tell themselves and want to force others to accept as truth, the same way evangelical christians want to force people to believe in god. And I know that people are willing to use force to that end, meaning that they're just hypocrites who hate losing when someone else uses force to instill different values instead.

You don't get to pick the victor of governance, but you do get to pick what methods you accept as being ok in your book. Ends don't justify means.

[Ihavewaffles]

a lot of people have strange ideas regarding UBI - it was never even in theory meant to give you anything more then put roof over your head (in form of rented apartment/room) , enough food to survive (so around 2k calorie a day ) and cheap clothers (possibly fron 2nd hand shops)

while i have suspition that some people belive that UBI will sponsor them their own homes,cars , designer clothes and as much food as they would like.

I think ur vastly underestimating how much full automation/robotization will produce if u think it will barely conjure up to basic neccesities...

No, it will produce more than we can actually use.

Robots don't take breaks, go home, go on holidays, they'll work 24/7. Everyone will enjoy the fruits of that.

I'm more curious what people will do with their lives, how people will measure each other, My guess would be Sports will become really huge n provide an escape for most competive nature..

[BeepBoo]

No, it will produce more than we can actually use..

But why would you run something if you're not getting something in return for running it? Someone will own the automation. Someone will own the land and resources the automation uses to produce, etc, etc. If you think it's going to all happen out of the kindness of peoples' hearts, you're dreaming.

The best part of automation isn't "freeing everyone from their basic needs." It's invalidating an entire class of person and raising the bar of "minimum viable product" by reducing the need the capable and intelligent people have of worker bees, thereby reducing the needed population required to build a society on, thereby driving population down and providing a much more stable and burden free world where humans can explore and grow at a much faster rate, as the intelligence is now focused on new problems besides how to fit more people on their back.

[PC2]

I think ur vastly underestimating how much full automation/robotization will produce if u think it will barely conjure up to basic neccesities...

No, it will produce more than we can actually use.

Robots don't take breaks, go home, go on holidays, they'll work 24/7. Everyone will enjoy the fruits of that.

I'm more curious what people will do with their lives, how people will measure each other, My guess would be Sports will become really huge n provide an escape for most competive nature..

Well obviously if we trivialized life on Earth then we'd start working on colonizing the solar system and galaxy and so on. You could measure people based on the size of their ventures in space.

[Mayhem]

Well obviously if we trivialized life on Earth then we'd start working on colonizing the solar system and galaxy and so on.

Are you predicting the unpredictable again?

[PC2]

Are you predicting the unpredictable again?

Yeah that's my conjecture of the future in that hypothetical. What can't ever determine the future of human society is the projection of historical data.

[Ihavewaffles]

I'd rather not be responsible for supporting a potentially unlimited number of scrubs.
I'd rather not enable people to be lazier than they already are.
I'd rather not encourage people to take more from the system than they'll ever put in.

I'd rather accept the shortcomings and unfortunate events that result from no universal anything. Weakness is something to be abhorred.



Lel. Everyone should feel so lucky to provide ME with things I want, eh?
The privilege of caring for others, eh?

No thanks.

People work more when its something they are interested in, care about, life needs to be fullfilling, if u want to keep people down so u can feel better about yourself, u bought yourself French Revolution if u try to stop ubi. You are basically proclaiming yourself enemy of humanity..

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That has almost no meaning to me other than we share a species. Being born isn't special. Being human isn't special. Being a capable human that epitomizes human capabilities is special.


Human dignity or any other fancy way of saying "everyone is special and deserves life at the expense of everyone else" are all bullshit illogical arguments. Humanity's existence as a whole being "good" isn't even a universality, let alone the existence of any given individual. About the only thing that you can logically say is that a human exists. Whether or not that matters is completely and utterly up to every other given individual.


I understand that it's bullshit some people tell themselves and want to force others to accept as truth, the same way evangelical christians want to force people to believe in god. And I know that people are willing to use force to that end, meaning that they're just hypocrites who hate losing when someone else uses force to instill different values instead.

You don't get to pick the victor of governance, but you do get to pick what methods you accept as being ok in your book. Ends don't justify means.

At the expense of other humans? At the expense of ROBOTS. Did u wander into a random thread not having checked what its really about?



Walter Sobchak:
Were you listening to The Dude's story?

Donny:
I was bowling.

Walter Sobchak:
So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...


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But why would you run something if you're not getting something in return for running it? Someone will own the automation. Someone will own the land and resources the automation uses to produce, etc, etc. If you think it's going to all happen out of the kindness of peoples' hearts, you're dreaming.

The best part of automation isn't "freeing everyone from their basic needs." It's invalidating an entire class of person and raising the bar of "minimum viable product" by reducing the need the capable and intelligent people have of worker bees, thereby reducing the needed population required to build a society on, thereby driving population down and providing a much more stable and burden free world where humans can explore and grow at a much faster rate, as the intelligence is now focused on new problems besides how to fit more people on their back.

Land? Future produce will be grown in the cities n towns, not take up as much space as today, also will waste less resources like water.

Its called vertical farming n many countries are working towards that goal.

[kamuimac]

I think ur vastly underestimating how much full automation/robotization will produce if u think it will barely conjure up to basic neccesities...

No, it will produce more than we can actually use.

Robots don't take breaks, go home, go on holidays, they'll work 24/7. Everyone will enjoy the fruits of that.

I'm more curious what people will do with their lives, how people will measure each other, My guess would be Sports will become really huge n provide an escape for most competive nature..

"robots will produce"

and who will buy it ?

companies will keep producing for the sake of producing ?

you logic falls apart because in your vision of world we would have huge oversuply and absolute lack of demand.

the problem is not in production in goods - the problem is elsehere - i would much rather that developement of robotics focus on robots that clean up garbage , sewers , clean streets instead pure production - and those were are decades away from because most cant operate funtionaly in 3D enviroment because they cant "read" 3D effectively yet (maaaaaybe miliatary robots have some basic developement in this direction but thats huge maybe)

because you may end up in world were robots are doing production work and humans are still colecting garbage and cleaning toilets

and where does your UBI fits in this world ? when undereducated people will be left only with degrading jobs.

[Masark]

It's invalidating an entire class of person

So, genocide to achieve your randian dreams.

[kamuimac]

People work more when its something they are interested in, care about, life needs to be fullfilling, if u want to keep people down so u can feel better about yourself, u bought yourself French Revolution if u try to stop ubi. You are basically proclaiming yourself enemy of humanity..

the only thing that is stoping them from having fullfilling lives already atm is their own laziness.

i see it very often when my company is recruiting new people - only about 30% are peopel who we keep - rest are people who are unvilling to learn anything new and work hard - those we very fast get rid of . those who do instantly start earning more then decent money . but lazy will be forever lazy looking for excuses.

[Ihavewaffles]

the only thing that is stoping them from having fullfilling lives already atm is their own laziness.

i see it very often when my company is recruiting new people - only about 30% are peopel who we keep - rest are people who are unvilling to learn anything new and work hard - those we very fast get rid of . those who do instantly start earning more then decent money . but lazy will be forever lazy looking for excuses.

Loool

...

dude..

Unrealistic to expect in every company n profession that 100% of the people are happy they ended where they did.

When I got free time, vacation, or whatever, I forget about taking breaks like breakfast, I spend way more time on whatever I'm interested in than I do at work, where I never forget to take breaks.

Billions of peoples talents are wasted on doing unfullfilling work. Easy to talk shit just cuz ur happy where u ended up. Very ignorant

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"robots will produce"

and who will buy it ?

companies will keep producing for the sake of producing ?

you logic falls apart because in your vision of world we would have huge oversuply and absolute lack of demand.

the problem is not in production in goods - the problem is elsehere - i would much rather that developement of robotics focus on robots that clean up garbage , sewers , clean streets instead pure production - and those were are decades away from because most cant operate funtionaly in 3D enviroment because they cant "read" 3D effectively yet (maaaaaybe miliatary robots have some basic developement in this direction but thats huge maybe)

because you may end up in world were robots are doing production work and humans are still colecting garbage and cleaning toilets

and where does your UBI fits in this world ? when undereducated people will be left only with degrading jobs.

I said we could produce a lot more with robots, I didn't say robots would produce food for 10 mil population in a country of 2 mil...

Obviously future will be way more nationalized companies or it falls all apart, future will not cater to the 1% like it does today

[Twdft]

That has almost no meaning to me other than we share a species. Being born isn't special. Being human isn't special.

The most basic idea behind Universal Basic Income is the thought that every human deserves to live. And to live with dignity. UBI is unconditional.

As long as you (and kamuimac btw) can't follow this basic thought I don't know what you are doing in a conversation about UBI.

We can discuss if UBI is necessary, how to finance it, what we as a species have to change to make it work. But as long as you think some people deserve to live in poverty you don't understand the most basic thing about what it means to be human.

[Masark]

The most basic idea behind Universal Basic Income is the thought that every human deserves to live.

Hasn't BeepBoo made it rather clear that he fundamentally disagrees with that thought and is about a quarter step from declaring that everyone they consider insufficiently wealthy is life unworthy of life.

[Cæli]

Money currently is taken from everyone and given to the wealthiest, and to corporations... is it okay to give money to companies but not okay to give money to people??

damn right, the people also deserve money, money for everyone!

[Themius]

Nope.

Just because they improve themselves doesn't mean they improve themselves to the level where they make enough or contribute enough to justify however much the good "basic" quality of life they'd be getting. It's not about that. It's about if they're worth it or not. We don't NEED more humans. Humans will keep fucking and having kids regardless of literally anything else.


No, I mean say it takes like 50k goods to sustain someone "comfortably. If they can't or couldn't get to something that gets them that much societal worth in a laissez faire market society, they are literally not worth other people's time.


Cool, but a disabled person who doesn't have a network of support involving ONLY individuals who would want to take that burden on is weaker than someone who does not need that support. The person who doesn't need it also doesn't have to worry about if they need it or not. Pretty beautiful, eh?

A shame I'm high in the IT chain and my wife is a doctor the ripe old age of 30 living in a place where most of the other people are farmers.

Also not true, but nice try engaging in a hasty generalization, desperately looking for some reason.

Not at all, I don't believe in trickle down.

100% nothing against society. 100% everything against a society that tries to assume a potentially unlimited amount of burden at the expense of people who are already living comfortably just because some people start to have hard times. Say everyone would have to eat half of what they currently do and have for everyone to get on with life. Are you really going to ask people to sacrifice half of their food and reduce their quality of life that much just to carry someone when they could just let that person go and keep the same? Nah. I wouldn't wish that on anyone if it were me struggling.

Again, nothing against society. Why do you think society necessarily means defacto "cares and supports 100% of it's constituents"?

Ignoring the fact that I'm all for society that does not coerce it's constituents into anything... What makes you think the only way any of those things get built is if the government does it?

your claim that my statement isn’t true about right wing state being pulled up by blue ones Is literally disproved by the irs

Everything else you said is nothing quite literally nothing lots of nothing in fact.

None of your points or ideas have been made clear or not already undermined by your own words. You must live an extreme sheltered life for such a silly conclusion.

Do you support housing all homeless people using tax dollars?

[kamuimac]

Loool

...

dude..

Unrealistic to expect in every company n profession that 100% of the people are happy they ended where they did.

When I got free time, vacation, or whatever, I forget about taking breaks like breakfast, I spend way more time on whatever I'm interested in than I do at work, where I never forget to take breaks.

Billions of peoples talents are wasted on doing unfullfilling work. Easy to talk shit just cuz ur happy where u ended up. Very ignorant

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I said we could produce a lot more with robots, I didn't say robots would produce food for 10 mil population in a country of 2 mil...

Obviously future will be way more nationalized companies or it falls all apartfuture will not cater to the 1% like it does today,

so communism in the end

"this time it will work "

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damn right, the people also deserve money, money for everyone!

"The political slogan "Workers of the world, unite!" is one of the most famous rallying cries from The Communist Manifesto (1848) by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels (German: Proletarier aller Länder vereinigt Euch!, literally "Proletarians of all countries, unite!"

Marx forever alive

the problem is 99,99 % of people have no idea that when Marx was writing his nonsense jibbrish he was living off money that Engels inherited from his rich father

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I said we could produce a lot more with robots, I didn't say robots would produce food for 10 mil population in a country of 2 mil...

Obviously future will be way more nationalized companies or it falls all apart, future will not cater to the 1% like it does today

but such "ovrproduction" o valuable goods leads direcly to wealth of each countries

you dont even have basic idea how macroeconomy works and you try to preach comunistic manifestos.

that is pure gold

[BeepBoo]

So, genocide to achieve your randian dreams.

Is letting someone die the same thing as killing them? The point is that humans are a resource just like any other material as far as society is concerned. Their market value and demand fluctuate. Someone being left to starve to death on their own isn't the same thing as someone coming in and shooting them because they think they deserve to die.

People work more when its something they are interested in, care about, life needs to be fullfilling, if u want to keep people down so u can feel better about yourself, u bought yourself French Revolution if u try to stop ubi. You are basically proclaiming yourself enemy of humanity..

I don't want to keep anyone in particular down. A free market would decide who it wants to keep down. The enemy of humanity is incompetence and weakness. I'm the enemy of those people. Being the enemy of a small piece of humanity isn't being the enemy of humanity as a whole, because we are not actually all bound together or in this together. We do not all share the same fate.

At the expense of other humans? At the expense of ROBOTS. Did u wander into a random thread not having checked what its really about?

Land? Future produce will be grown in the cities n towns, not take up as much space as today, also will waste less resources like water.

You're missing the point. Someone owns buildings in cities, and it isn't "the people" (government) of those cities. Someone owns everything and it usually isn't the government (nor should it be). As long as someone else owns the means of production, someone will have freedom to decide when and how they want to use said property. That means they can elect to only use something to help someone else when they get something they want out of the situation. Who tf would produce 100 t-shirts and just give them away for nothing in return? (inb4 "people donate", yeah yeah, because they're getting personal satisfaction out of it and that's the point... let that type of stuff exist in ONLY the true capacity it would exist, not in excess numbers forced by a government).

The most basic idea behind Universal Basic Income is the thought that every human deserves to live. And to live with dignity. UBI is unconditional.

Right, and I disagree with that idea, which is why I'm in here arguing against it. Sorry this isn't an echo chamber? OP literally asks if it's time to discuss UBI. My answer is no, because it's never time to discuss UBI, because no matter how long humanity lives, society deserves to retain the right to let people fall through it's cracks.

your claim that my statement isn’t true about right wing state being pulled up by blue ones Is literally disproved by the irs

WHere did I claim this at all? Any time I said "nope" was in regards to an opinion you had that I disagreed with. In this particular case it was the "you spout right-wing talking points." Apologies for not cropping out the rest.

Do you support housing all homeless people using tax dollars?

Nope. I support letting society decide via natural means how much of it's resources it wants to dedicate towards that (and when I say society, I mean laissez faire style).

Hasn't BeepBoo made it rather clear that he fundamentally disagrees with that thought and is about a quarter step from declaring that everyone they consider insufficiently wealthy is life unworthy of life.

You mistake my view. I simply recognize that the fact that poor people, homeless, etc, exist when humans are 100% free to donate and help already means that there is definitely some level of "I don't give a fuck about ABSOLUTELY everyone" that exists in society already and that I think society should be free to make those choices. I don't need to make the choice. Society would naturally make it if we would just let it.

[xenogear3]

The most basic idea behind Universal Basic Income is the thought that every human deserves to live. And to live with dignity. UBI is unconditional.

The other reason is that the current welfare system is flawed.
People who don't need get it. People who need it too shy to get it.
The unemployment insurance is ridiculous. You pretend to look for a job to get it.

UBI simplified the system.