The most powerful servant of the Lich King

[TheFirstOnes]

easily Kel'thuzad and by miles too, he is Arthas right hand man, while Sindragosa is just an angry undead dragon

Sometimes, rank means nothing in terms of power. KJ and Archimonde were Sargeras' Left and Right hand men. Yet, Argus was stronger than them by miles.

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Of course Sindragosa wins, don't you remember what she does to casters?

Oh fuck. You're right.

[darkoms]

Lore-wise: The Player character in Legion.

I talk about Arthas and I'm not sure that DK were considered servants of Bolvar in the Legion

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Sometimes, rank means nothing in terms of power. KJ and Archimonde were Sargeras' Left and Right hand men. Yet, Argus was stronger than them by miles.

Argus gained physical form after their death. Most likely he would have been superior to them in rank if they had been alive by the time of his birth.

[Aresk]

"Kel'thuzad was able to summon Archimonde to Azeroth"

Didn't he need a couple relics tho?

He used the Book of Medivh for the specific ritual, which was pillaged from Dalaran; if specific relics were needed, they were not noteworthy enough to receive mention. It was also done on a specific date, though it wasn't clear if that date was mystical somehow or if that date was a deadline set by Archimonde.

[Saltysquidoon]

I think this entire thread is a testament to how badly Anub'arak was treated in Wrath. He's not only got significant physical and necromantic strength but is also the king of all nerubians.

Indubitably...

[Razion]

Depends if you want to kill every member of a civilization or destroy structures.

Obviously Arthas went out of his way to raise Kel'Thuzad with the Sunwell - something not afforded to Frost Wyrms.

Kel'Thuzad has the most impressive feat in terms of 1v1ing the entirety of half of the Eastern Kingdoms. Laying siege to an entire continent isn't anywhere close to something a Frost Wyrm is capable of doing on their own - even the Scarlet Crusade is a threat to the Frost Wyrm raised in the starting scenario without you to control it. Even during the various Scourge invasions, Frost Wyrms were fought off with anti-air units. I think Kel'Thuzad is in a completely different league than any Frost Wyrm. There's a reason Liches are considered Hero Units and Frost Wyrms are disposable and can be made into armies.

It would probably take a dragon like Malygos, Deathwing, or Galakrond to best Kel'Thuzad.

[enigma77]

I actually think Kel'Thuzad would be stronger. Sure Sindragosa is a big dragon, but in terms of magic, which is what it would come down to, I think Kel'Thuzad is stronger. I mean ol' Sindy was just a regular blue dragon in her time, she's no Aspect. And dragons have been beaten before 1v1 by mortals.

[vipers]

easily Kel'thuzad and by miles too, he is Arthas right hand man, while Sindragosa is just an angry undead dragon

Sindragosa was last line of defence to him

[Zephire]

Kel'thuzad was able to summon Archimonde to Azeroth without use of the Sunwell or Well of Eternity. While Sindragosa would obviously win in a 1-on-1 (since Kel'thuzad's pathetic magic would BETRAAAAY him), Kel'thuzad has much greater utility and in general I think would be more useful for an overall military campaign. Individual battles may still favor Sindragosa for her sheer destructive power.

Oh gosh, I read that in her voice... haha, thanks for that.

Kel would be vastly superior in anything involving scheming or strategy. In raw power and destruction? Maybe Sindra? She's a big bad dragon (was?) so there's a lot of physical strenght in her with her mass etc but then magic is a thing... unsure! I'd go for Kel overall though. He also have a nice voice.

Sindragosa was last line of defence to him

Well, wasn't Kel'thuzad dead by that point? Unfair!

[cparle87]

Kel'thuzad was able to summon Archimonde to Azeroth without use of the Sunwell or Well of Eternity. While Sindragosa would obviously win in a 1-on-1 (since Kel'thuzad's pathetic magic would BETRAAAAY him), Kel'thuzad has much greater utility and in general I think would be more useful for an overall military campaign. Individual battles may still favor Sindragosa for her sheer destructive power.

With Medivh's Book, the third greatest concentration of leylines on Azeroth, a portion of Sunwell power, and a lot of preparation. AU Gul'dan did that with only the last thing.

[faithbane]

Kel'thuzad was able to summon Archimonde to Azeroth without use of the Sunwell or Well of Eternity. While Sindragosa would obviously win in a 1-on-1 (since Kel'thuzad's pathetic magic would BETRAAAAY him), Kel'thuzad has much greater utility and in general I think would be more useful for an overall military campaign. Individual battles may still favor Sindragosa for her sheer destructive power.

To be fair KT was reborn from the waters of the sunwell before he summoned archimonde and he had some pretty strong relics of dalaran/the guardian to do the job and it still took a long ass time

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I actually think Kel'Thuzad would be stronger. Sure Sindragosa is a big dragon, but in terms of magic, which is what it would come down to, I think Kel'Thuzad is stronger. I mean ol' Sindy was just a regular blue dragon in her time, she's no Aspect. And dragons have been beaten before 1v1 by mortals.

Sindragosa was basically the wife of malygos and one of the most badass blue dragons second to him. Not just some rando

[darkoms]

I actually think Kel'Thuzad would be stronger. Sure Sindragosa is a big dragon, but in terms of magic, which is what it would come down to, I think Kel'Thuzad is stronger. I mean ol' Sindy was just a regular blue dragon in her time, she's no Aspect. And dragons have been beaten before 1v1 by mortals.

Sindragosa is the main wife of Aspect. The main consorts are the strongest dragons after the Aspects themselves. I assure you, Sindragosa understands the arcane and frost is MUCH better than KT. When were dragons beaten by mortals 1x1?

[Aresk]

With Medivh's Book, the third greatest concentration of leylines on Azeroth, a portion of Sunwell power, and a lot of preparation. AU Gul'dan did that with only the last thing.

Unless AU Gul'dan is also secretly masquerading as Sindragosa, I don't see the relevance to this discussion. Gul'dan being powerful doesn't negate the fact that Kel'thuzad is also quite powerful, and that power was crucial in the overall Legion campaign against Azeroth during the second invasion.

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To be fair KT was reborn from the waters of the sunwell before he summoned archimonde and he had some pretty strong relics of dalaran/the guardian to do the job and it still took a long ass time

Quite true! It's why I personally place his value for more long term strategy and overall campaigns, whereas I think Sindragosa would be a greater asset for individual battles. KT is more strategic; Sindra, more tactical.

[Unholyground]

Lets see undead Galakrond first before we pass any power judgments lol.

[Hellobolis]

All depends on how resistant sindragosa is against his magic.

Doubt KT is able to raise or directly control her, but undeath/shadow magic should work against her.

It's your typical kite/CC/slow vs strong melee character battle. ground her > spam minions to slow her down in death and decay > hope you can keep that up faster than she can swat them away.

I think KT is screwed without preparation and/or getting the jump though.

[cparle87]

Unless AU Gul'dan is also secretly masquerading as Sindragosa, I don't see the relevance to this discussion. Gul'dan being powerful doesn't negate the fact that Kel'thuzad is also quite powerful, and that power was crucial in the overall Legion campaign against Azeroth during the second invasion.

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Quite true! It's why I personally place his value for more long term strategy and overall campaigns, whereas I think Sindragosa would be a greater asset for individual battles. KT is more strategic; Sindra, more tactical.

You argued that Kel'thuzad summoned Archimonde without a Well. I argued that he was revived by a Well, had the third greatest concentration of magic at his disposal, and a Book from the Guardian/Fallen Titan to back him up. AU Gul'dan didn't have any of those things and he managed the same feat. So using Kel'thuzad's summoning of Archimonde as a benchmark of his power when he had so much help to do it is faulty.

[Aresk]

You argued that Kel'thuzad summoned Archimonde without a Well. I argued that he was revived by a Well, had the third greatest concentration of magic at his disposal, and a Book from the Guardian/Fallen Titan to back him up. AU Gul'dan didn't have any of those things and he managed the same feat. So using Kel'thuzad's summoning of Archimonde as a benchmark of his power when he had so much help to do it is faulty.

Being revived by a well doesn't diminish his power any; if your argument is that he counts as a mobile Sunwell, then that's really not making him sound less powerful. Gul'dan summoned Archimonde at the Dark Portal, which sat on a convergence of ley lines as well, so that part is moot. So essentially KT had the Book of Medivh to instruct him how to perform the ritual, whereas Gul'dan would have had to learn it elsewhere. It's not a compelling argument for him being weak and doesn't diminish the accomplishment.

[cparle87]

Being revived by a well doesn't diminish his power any; if your argument is that he counts as a mobile Sunwell, then that's really not making him sound less powerful. Gul'dan summoned Archimonde at the Dark Portal, which sat on a convergence of ley lines as well, so that part is moot. So essentially KT had the Book of Medivh to instruct him how to perform the ritual, whereas Gul'dan would have had to learn it elsewhere. It's not a compelling argument for him being weak and doesn't diminish the accomplishment.

It's been said in-lore that being revived by the Sunwell made him stronger than he would've been otherwise. There's never been any indication of leylines under the Dark Portal. The book was not just information, but a source of power itself. You keep buffing up Kel'thuzad in your argument when a lot of his power isn't attributed to him is the point I've been trying to make this whole time.

[Aresk]

It's been said in-lore that being revived by the Sunwell made him stronger than he would've been otherwise. There's never been any indication of leylines under the Dark Portal. The book was not just information, but a source of power itself. You keep buffing up Kel'thuzad in your argument when a lot of his power isn't attributed to him is the point I've been trying to make this whole time.

How does the Sunwell making him stronger detract from his accomplishments? If the Sunwell made him stronger, then he's stronger. He still wasn't at the Sunwell or the Well of Eternity (1st or 2nd) when he completed the ritual. As far as the Dark Portal and ley lines, it's mentioned in Chronicle Vol 2. on page 115; the site was chosen due to its convergence of ley lines.

My whole point has been that he was able to accomplish a great feat that proved pivotal for the Legion's invasion. I've not been buffing him up; my argument hasn't changed, and I haven't brought in any additional arguments to give him the illusion of being stronger. I didn't even mention how powerful KT was; you're the one who started discussing power levels. Because he was successful in performing such rituals, I think he would have great utility for the Scourge and would prove more useful than Sindragosa in a long campaign. Within individual battles, Sindragosa may prove more useful. My stance has never changed in this, and I'm not sure why you think AU Gul'dan would have any bearing as to KT's utility over Sindragosa.

[Syegfryed]

Pretty sure is Kel'thuzand and second Deathbringer