Why did they go with Sira Moonwarden?

[Super Dickmann]

I don't remember the part where Sylvanas wanted to become Arthas' pet

That's the point - despite having Sylvanas personally direct her through the book and try and impose her worldview on her Delaryn would eventually reject it of her own accord, as Sylvanas did. Instead of having it be induced outside by Calia, with whom she has nothing in common except both being women I guess.

[Hellspawn]

That's the point - despite having Sylvanas personally direct her through the book and try and impose her worldview on her Delaryn would eventually reject it of her own accord, as Sylvanas did. Instead of having it be induced outside by Calia, with whom she has nothing in common except both being women I guess.

But Delaryn rejected it by her own accord. When she meetup with Calia she already wasn't with Sylvanas anymore (same for the other Dark Ranger). I personally don't like Delaryns story much but at least her character is not as bad as Sira.

[Super Dickmann]

But Delaryn rejected it by her own accord. When she meetup with Calia she already wasn't with Sylvanas anymore (same for the other Dark Ranger). I personally don't like Delaryns story much but at least her character is not as bad as Sira.

Delaryn has an actual personality, Sira doesn't. But she only broke out of her funk on her own in the sense that Sylvanas inexplicably ditches her despite making a point of raising her. She isn't affected by Tyrande or Maiev asking her and the other night elves to come back, she isn't affected by Elune shining on her, she's affected by the promise that she can meet the undead princess of a dynasty she has nothing to do with, who lives a continent away representing a faith she has no connecting point with.

Delaryn has more potential, but her story post-raising has been heinous and its resolution is godawful. Sira's greatest advantage is that she has no prior personality, so you can write her in the way I described in the last page and thus get a half-decent one-off baddie to kill in a quest/dungeon.

[Hellspawn]

Delaryn has more potential, but her story post-raising has been heinous and its resolution is godawful. Sira's greatest advantage is that she has no prior personality, so you can write her in the way I described in the last page and thus get a half-decent one-off baddie to kill in a quest/dungeon.

If Sira doesn't already die in the book...

Delaryn has an actual personality but that connection with an undead Lordaeron Princess sounds strange and not really interesting to me (Let alone Calia herself). The entire angle of feeling betrayed by Elune and the lost of her people falls short. And the only thing thing that remains is finding a place in the world. Idk it feels disconnected.

[Super Dickmann]

If Sira doesn't already die in the book...

Delaryn has an actual personality but that connection with an undead Lordaeron Princess sounds strange and not really interesting to me (Let alone Calia herself). The entire angle of feeling betrayed by Elune and the lost of her people falls short. And the only thing thing that remains is finding a place in the world. Idk it feels disconnected.

Sira dying in the book won't be a great loss at all. As said, I think the reason she's in there is precisely because of that - no one really likes her, the subplot with the undead night elves was poorly received, but without her Nathanos would have no one to talk to in his segments, so it helps to give him a named partner in crime. She also serves to give us a look inside of Sylvanas's camp, as all the other Dark Rangers are in the know, whereas she can be introduced to whatever it is they're doing gradually.

As for the Lordaeron business, the whole bit with the undead night elves going with Calia is nonsensical and poor. They have nothing in common with each other besides their sex. I get the impression they wanted to abort the undead night elf story as fast as possible, but they took a bad way out of it.

[Segus1992]

Would have suited Maiev a lot better, but I think people would have moaned that Maiev went full villain, after the moans about Fandral and Illidan going villain, so they chose a relative unknown.

You "think" that Maiev, one of the most zealous zealots for justice in the Warcraft lore, going full villain would make people complain?

In a similar fashion, I believe people would maybe complain if Blood Elves all suddenly became the Withered from Suramar.

[Raisei]

What really confuses me is how these elite Wardens keep falling to corruption/insanity so easily.

Maiev was not particularly stable to begin with then went full on serial killer in Wolfheart, Cordana joined the Legion in a heartbeat and now Sira sides with the people that murdered her. One would assume that they are chosen because of their loyalty to the Night Elven race and other qualities that should prevent such a turn...

[Super Dickmann]

What really confuses me is how these elite Wardens keep falling to corruption/insanity so easily.

Maiev was not particularly stable to begin with then went full on serial killer in Wolfheart, Cordana joined the Legion in a heartbeat and now Sira sides with the people that murdered her. One would assume that they are chosen because of their loyalty to the Night Elven race and other qualities that should prevent such a turn...

Sitting around in a basement for 10k years while Maiev chainsmokes and talks about Illidan has worn down their sanity, as has the lack of night elf therapists.

[eurojust]

That's the point - despite having Sylvanas personally direct her through the book and try and impose her worldview on her Delaryn would eventually reject it of her own accord, as Sylvanas did. Instead of having it be induced outside by Calia, with whom she has nothing in common except both being women I guess.

But Sylvanas never willingly sided with Arthas in the first place. The first thing she does once she gets her freewill back is to try to capture and then torture him.
Not only i'm not a fan of reash story lines (they are just lazy writing), but here they even missed completely the point about Sylvanas and the people who got slaughtered by the Scourge.
As for Sira, she's just another Cordana. Except instead of Guldan, it's Nathanos. And she doesn't even have the cOrRupTioN excuse.

[Super Dickmann]

But Sylvanas never willingly sided with Arthas in the first place. The first thing she does once she gets her freewill back is to try to capture and then torture him.
Not only i'm not a fan of reash story lines (they are just lazy writing), but here they even missed completely the point about Sylvanas and the people who got slaughtered by the Scourge.

The Stockholm syndrome undead who're basically psychologically abused into siding with those who offed them isn't inherently bad in the sense that you could hypothetically do it well. But it's well beyond what Blizzard can reliably do. However, given that they already did it, having Delaryn break free of that kind of thinking on her own makes for a better story than her and those like her glomping onto a third party for their meaning in life.

[eurojust]

The Stockholm syndrome undead who're basically psychologically abused into siding with those who offed them isn't inherently bad in the sense that you could hypothetically do it well. But it's well beyond what Blizzard can reliably do. However, given that they already did it, having Delaryn break free of that kind of thinking on her own makes for a better story than her and those like her glomping onto a third party for their meaning in life.

I find this concept gross but let's say that's the case : Why did the scourge even bother with mind control then??? Not to mention that hating the scourge is one of the key characterization of the Forsaken. Can you imagine the human undeads siding with Arthas because "tHe LiGhT abanDonnEd Us" or the high elves because "KaEl abAndonNed Us"??
It just completely breaks the whole lore.

[Hellspawn]

The Lichking actually use mindcontrol, Sylvanas could only break free because his grip weakened.

[Super Dickmann]

I find this concept gross but let's say that's the case : Why did the scourge even bother with mind control then??? Not to mention that hating the scourge is one of the key characterization of the Forsaken. Can you imagine the human undeads siding with Arthas because "tHe LiGhT abanDonnEd Us" or the high elves because "KaEl abAndonNed Us"??
It just completely breaks the whole lore.

Because said story would only work if you're willing to explore what kind of person would be open to such a mindset shift at all. You need to personalize far more, and the vast majority of people aren't the kind of brittle sadsacks who'd have such a mood shift without duress.

Also, if you want to get pedantic it's because mind control is easier, more effective and also buffed the LK. He also had tons of Cult of the Damned who knew full well that he meant to kill all the living and destroy their home and joined anyway, ditto the Twilight's Hammer and so forth. The implausibility is overrated.

[eurojust]

Because said story would only work if you're willing to explore what kind of person would be open to such a mindset shift at all. You need to personalize far more, and the vast majority of people aren't the kind of brittle sadsacks who'd have such a mood shift without duress.

Also, if you want to get pedantic it's because mind control is easier, more effective and also buffed the LK. He also had tons of Cult of the Damned who knew full well that he meant to kill all the living and destroy their home and joined anyway, ditto the Twilight's Hammer and so forth. The implausibility is overrated.

There's no personalization when the Forsaken raise people in mass and use it as a war tactic. You really think Nathanos had Sira psychological assessment before raising her? And again, it's not specific to Night Elves, it's happening since cata. However back then it wasn't clear if it's was mind control or not.
How is mind control easier when people you just killed have stockholm syndrom and will gladely lick your boots and help you to kill their own kind? How is it more effective when the moment you lose control they turn on you?
Again, why did Sylvanas and the Forsaken hate the LK then? Is it because he used mind control eventhough it was pointless?
And no, you can't compare that with the Cult of the Damned : they weren't people who were killed by the Scourge and willingly sided with the LK for more power when they were alive.

[Super Dickmann]

There's no personalization when the Forsaken raise people in mass and use it as a war tactic. You really think Nathanos had Sira psychological assessment before raising her? And again, it's not specific to Night Elves, it's happening since cata. However back then it wasn't clear if it's was mind control or not.
How is mind control easier when people you just killed have stockholm syndrom and will gladely lick your boots and help you to kill their own kind?
Again, why did Sylvanas and the Forsaken hate the LK then? Is it because he used mind control eventhough it was pointless?

As I already explained to you, the kind of person it applies to is extremely limited. The Cataclysm Forsaken you raise outside of battle all have stories - it's literally the first thing you do in the very first Forsaken area - talk to the specific people raised and try to talk them into joining, and your final baddie is a significant group who decided not to do this, but instead rebel. The ones you raise afterwards fall under the CDev excuse of being easily influenced while in a rage state, which checks out in those contexts, since that was what the excuse was made for.

The Sira story is bad because we have no insight to her character whatsoever before she turns around and the entire night elf undead story is bad in principle because they are given every chance to change track by their own people who still care about them but only do so because of Calia.

The situations are directly comparable to both the Cult of the Damned and especially the Twilight's Hammer, given the latter knew full well that Deathwing meant to destroy the world and they, along with everyone else, would die, yet assisted him anyway.

[eurojust]

As I already explained to you, the kind of person it applies to is extremely limited. The Cataclysm Forsaken you raise outside of battle all have stories - it's literally the first thing you do in the very first Forsaken area - talk to the specific people raised and try to talk them into joining, and your final baddie is a significant group who decided not to do this, but instead rebel. The ones you raise afterwards fall under the CDev excuse of being easily influenced while in a rage state, which checks out in those contexts, since that was what the excuse was made for.

The Sira story is bad because we have no insight to her character whatsoever before she turns around and the entire night elf undead story is bad in principle because they are given every chance to change track by their own people who still care about them but only do so because of Calia.

No it's not limited. The Forsaken use it in cata to raise people in mass. People like Godfrey are exceptions which confirm the rule. They do it again with the night elves in Darkshore where they use undead night elves as cannon fodder.
Again, you really think they checked each people psychological assessment they raised? "oh look, i know the story of that corpse, therefore i know that we can safely raise it".
And again, why didn't the LK do the same?
I just told you why you can't compare that with the cult of the damned. Sira, etc. were never part of an evil cult.

[Super Dickmann]

No it's not limited. The Forsaken use it in cata to raise people in mass. People like Godfrey are exceptions which confirm the rule. They do it again with the night elves in Darkshore where they use undead night elves as cannon fodder.
Again, you really think they checked each people psychological assessment they raised? "oh look, i know the story of that corpse, therefore i know that we can safely raise it".
And again, why didn't the LK do the same?

I cited to you the quests in question - the very first you do in Tirisfal, where you specifically have people committed to chatting with those raised to talk them into joining, of which some rebel, Godfrey and company who rebel - and the ones you raise en masse in combat that fall under the CDev excuse of being easily mentally influenced because they died in a crisis and are raised in a manipulatable rage state, only to then be put in a closed society committed to their indoctrination, an outside society that intends their destruction and the prospect of hell if they take the easy way out.

Mind control is consistently more effective than individual psychological manipulation, as can be seen given that virtually everyone with a name who Sylvanas raised turns on her, from the Rotbrains, to Godfrey and company, to Galen Trollbale and his followers, to Derek and Zelling and to the Night Elves themselves, Sira aside. The asspain around this issue is vastly overblown.

[eurojust]

I cited to you the quests in question - the very first you do in Tirisfal, where you specifically have people committed to chatting with those raised to talk them into joining, of which some rebel, Godfrey and company who rebel - and the ones you raise en masse in combat that fall under the CDev excuse of being easily mentally influenced because they died in a crisis and are raised in a manipulatable rage state, only to then be put in a closed society committed to their indoctrination, an outside society that intends their destruction and the prospect of hell if they take the easy way out.

You really think the people killed by the LK weren't raise en masse in combat?
Yea i know the CDev explanation. They will always find the most stupid excuse to justify their current lore (reminds me of Cenarius being cool with Horde). Doesn't make the story better by any mean.

[Super Dickmann]

You really think the people killed by the LK weren't raise en masse in combat?
Yea i know the CDev explanation. They will always find the most stupid excuse to justify their current lore (reminds me of Cenarius being cool with Horde). Doesn't make the story better by any mean.

Reposting for your consumption:

Mind control is consistently more effective than individual psychological manipulation, as can be seen given that virtually everyone with a name who Sylvanas raised turns on her, from the Rotbrains, to Godfrey and company, to Galen Trollbale and his followers, to Derek, Lilian and Zelling and to the Night Elves themselves, Sira aside. The asspain around this issue is vastly overblown.

The LK simply doesn't give them their brains back after that manipulatable state, but holds control of them. That's why the undead only turn on the LK when his control lapses, whereas Sylvanas is betrayed by practically everyone who she brings back.

[eurojust]

Reposting for your consumption:

Mind control is consistently more effective than individual psychological manipulation, as can be seen given that virtually everyone with a name who Sylvanas raised turns on her, from the Rotbrains, to Godfrey and company, to Galen Trollbale and his followers, to Derek, Lilian and Zelling and to the Night Elves themselves, Sira aside. The asspain around this issue is vastly overblown.

The LK simply doesn't give them their brains back after that manipulatable state, but holds control of them. That's why the undead only turn on the LK when his control lapses, whereas Sylvanas is betrayed by practically everyone who she brings back.

No, it's not more effective since the moment you lose mindcontrol, they will turn on you. For the last time, Godfrey, etc. are exceptions, otherwise she wouldn't have been able to raise an army of undeads loyal to her during cata and would have stopped with that.
You are implying that the LK is a dumbass who didn't even know that he didn't have to use mindcontrol. It's even worse when you take into account that the LK KNEW that he would lose his powers. That makes his decision to use mind control even dumber.