Icecrown (Spoilers)

[tristannarutofan]

This is the intended message of what they are within the text, as much as it is gag-worthy, but it should still come off the leadership of someone who understands the Forsaken and have had their entire realm of experience (i.e. died, was raised against their will or by Sylvanas in Cataclysm, gained free will, felt abandoned, alone, angry, afraid, etc.) and became better through their own experiences and fellowship.

Otherwise it's the equivalent of a white savior story just...without the race involvement. It's really fucking easy to talk about the idea of healing when you have no metric of the same realm of experience. It's sanctimonious and makes presumptions about people. It's antithetical to empathy.



Fucking this. This is exactly what she would be. Thank you for putting it well into words.

They could do that with her, it would be an interesting story, but I don't think they'd have the brains to.

and thats the problem, there is no forsaken leadership. She has as much character development as the other forsaken leaders, the military commander whatshisname and the apothecary whats his name. Lillian voss has been in the forsaken for a year at most, and says she is only there to help new forsaken. Faol isnt even in the horde.

And the rest is just...
ok first of all the white savior thing is specifically about race. so if you nix that then its about, what? a 'better' person from the outside coming in and helping? Like i've said i'm not keen on the idea either but from a writing perspective there is nothing wrong with it. and its sort of fitting that she's like that because the ruler who betrayed them is the one who killed her, because she was trying to help them. Like she's literally this angelic being because she risked her life and died to help them.

And people dont need to understand you to help you. because part of helping you is understanding you. I can never understand what it slike to have ptsd or schizophrenia or assault trauma, but i can LISTEN to people who do and be there to help them how i can. it sounds like the point is "unless you have my hurt you cant help me"

by all means who should be the forsaken leader?

[Vakir]

These are the people saying that. When they say that calia is bad, because she's not liek sylvannas, they are saying they want HER back or someone LIKE her. which is basically the same thing.

and yes i know calia doesnt have the same past as them i've been playing this isnce 2005 and have been a fan of the forsaken and sylvannas since then.

my question is, Why the heck not? Why does she have to identify with them to help them? Cant you see how that might be like...the focus of her story? Anduins is trying to be a king when he's just a child, Genn is trying to do right by his people despite how he failed them. Calia , hypothetically, has to struggle to help her people despite not having gone through the same things as them. Sounds like a legitimate character arc

also since when was she the forsaken leader anyways?

That isn't what anyone in the thread is fucking saying. You're just twisting that to the focus because you refuse to accept that maybe people can dislike a story direction without being some edgelord. The issue is that Calia isn't truly a Forsaken in the sense of the culture itself. Her experiences and history are deeply different. She is extremely privileged in how she got to where she is as a light undead. It's completely incompatible with the struggle actual Forsaken have gone through.

You COULD have her go through that arc, I have very little faith in said arc, but I think it would be a better sign of good faith and meaning for her to abdicate and give it to the people that actually were there when it fell and suffered and struggled through that time and have a leader that has had a similar situation or background.

She's not officially their leader, but her turning up is going to have this kind of response anytime she does until they confirm it otherwise. Trying to walk it back to "well she isn't anyway" just tells me you had little confidence in your argument for her not being a poor choice to begin with. I fucking hate Sylvanas, but I guess somehow by understanding that experiences are totally different between people and I can't espouse to be part of a culture that I'm not, I'm an "edgelord" who wants her in charge. Or you just have no proper understanding or benchmark for social and cultural context.

k first of all the white savior thing is specifically about race. so if you nix that then its about, what? a 'better' person from the outside coming in and helping? Like i've said i'm not keen on the idea either but from a writing perspective there is nothing wrong with it. and its sort of fitting that she's like that because the ruler who betrayed them is the one who killed her, because she was trying to help them. Like she's literally this angelic being because she risked her life and died to help them.

And people dont need to understand you to help you. because part of helping you is understanding you. I can never understand what it slike to have ptsd or schizophrenia or assault trauma, but i can LISTEN to people who do and be there to help them how i can. it sounds like the point is "unless you have my hurt you cant help me"

The issue with the savior concept is the same independent of race. It's somebody acting as a paragon despite not having any actual experience and it's performative in this case from the same writers that really seem to have Calia as a pet.

The difference with being a support is that it isn't the same thing as being an authority. I'm post-Masters as a Mental Health Counselor. I have worked myself on things like anxiety and depression, but I've never had something like Bipolar 1 or 2, Schizophrenia, Borderline Personality, or whatnot. I can give information and support people with empathy, and I can be an advocate, but I am deluding myself to think that I am a personal leader of that cause if there was to be a core organization. It's not my voice to have. It's the same problem with Autism Speaks having almost exclusively non-Autistic people in leading areas: it's fucking stupid and gross.

"Who should be then?" is just a begging of the question. "Literally any other character with clout that has that experience."

[Super Dickmann]

@Vakir

I've lived to see you get condemned as a Sylvanasposter. I can now die satisfied.

[Timester]

No one is going to comment on how Sylvanas' soul is bound to the Helm? Aside from the fact that that doesn't make sense since the Helm is no more, that would mean we can just reforge the Helm then shatter it again to kill Sylvanas, no? Ala Sauron/Ring.

"Just reforge" needs that we go to the Shadowlands, to the forge where was created in the first place, know how to do it and fight the forces of the Jailer at the same time.

It's kind of pointless at the beginning.

[Vakir]

@Vakir

I've lived to see you get condemned as a Sylvanasposter. I can now die satisfied.

Can we get an addendum that the longer someone argues (especially as a personal guard to a multi-billion dollar corporation's bad story), the probability of them fingering anyone that disagrees with them as a Sylvanas poster approaches 1? Because Jesus fucking Christ.

[tristannarutofan]

If that were the heart of it, I would be able to note what it is they're doing and simply disagree in the sense that I find such a story pointless to the setting and alien to the Forsaken as they were sold and have been for fifteen years, since they're also a product of which I'm a consumer, and the product I was sold is not the one I'm getting. But what you're touching on here is one of the other endless issues with the Calia story. You aren't actually describing Calia - you're describing Voss.

Voss is the story of the Forsaken finding that they care about the Horde and that the Horde will stand for them, like Baine with Derek or Zelling or whatever, while still being the same person. She was 'born' into the Cataclysm Forsaken society, focused on its value of free will and self-determination and prioritized that over following Sylvanas once she had her great sperg out and fled, deciding that they would be free to continue to be what they are and that the bonds they'd built mattered. This story is based around Cataclysm existing and being important - Voss is only there because of the raising there, she only turns because she saw Sylvanas as representing a certain set of values, the Forsaken did represent those values, but they've gone astray and she cares for these values more than she does for personal loyalty. Over the course of her story, she helps others follow the same route she did - but that route is not inherently evil, she still sticks to her guns when it comes outside forces and the whole point of tying back into the Horde also goes back to Cataclysm when bridge-building was a big thing in the questing zones.

But it isn't Calia's story - Calia's story is not based around the Forsaken's ties to the Horde - it's about the Forsaken as temporarily embarrassed living Lordaeronians - where Voss's quests focus on how undeath is still a journey with drawbacks but also advantages that those in that mindset can note, Calia's story focuses on undeath as being irrelevant. The Forsaken in Calia's story are sheep - what happens in Cataclysm doesn't happen for them, they're victims who want to live exactly like humans, who's moment of rebellion centers around this and in literally going to the Alliance where they'd be able to live as such humans. Calia's story places no worth in anything the Forsaken have been in the last fifteen years - it's all bad and their identities are all wrong, only their living ones matter, hence the bit about Voss's dad. Her bond to them isn't the bonds they've made as people even after undeath and to the Horde the way the Voss and the Reckoning story beats have it, it's in the wholesale rejection of that identity, society and the troubles thereof to focus solely on what they used to be. And she's cast overwhelmingly as being in the right. In the end Voss defers to her and accepts that Calia is right.

The story they told with Voss is one where the Forsaken are very much softened, taken on a story that shouldn't have been done in the first place, but are vaguely recognizable and they progress away from a personality cult while preserving some of their inherent traits. The Calia story is based on spacing all of this as a mistake, disregards their autonomy and self-determination entirely along with all of those ties and is ultimately the one given precedence. That's why it's inherently bad.

yes which is why i want Lilian voss to lead, not Calia.

but thats not whats going on here.

whats going on here is people seeing an image of members of the horde and alliance, some of which arent even faction leaders, trying to save the world. and then decrying and insulting the writers because they think it means they are going a certain route with the story, which might not even be bad.

like what if the plan is for them to have some back and forth, and calia tries to help and makes it worse and so Lilian decides she cant just sit back and let other people lead, and so she becomes the new "Forsaken queen " and has Calia bring in Faol and leaves Calia as ambassardor to the alliance. we dont have any reason to believe the writers dont feel exactly as you do

heck they might make her it, but the reaction to a bunch of people standing around, with 2 of them being personal friends of one of hte people they are trying to rescue, is overblown

[Timester]

but they did pick up a nightborne, 2 blood elf, and a light undead

tell me what the fuck is lorthemar and the nightborne are doing that that nobody else could do, tell me why the fuck there is 2 alliance characters on the horde side when could have simple picked up other characters?

you know they can pick whatever they want right? you know they picked those because they wanted specifically those right? you know they could have picked better suit characters who make more sense right?

Besides Valeera, you know that all those standing there are the Horde and Alliance leadership remnants, right? If anything, it shows how badly diverse the Alliance leadership is, with 2 humans as major leaders looking for a third one.

[Fewane]

Can we get an addendum that the longer someone argues (especially as a personal guard to a multi-billion dollar corporation's bad story), the probability of them fingering anyone that disagrees with them as a Sylvanas poster approaches 1? Because Jesus fucking Christ.

The WoW version of Godwin's law indeed. :P

[Super Dickmann]

@Vakir

That they do it for for free is what gets me.

yes which is why i want Lilian voss to lead, not Calia.

I'm glad we've made some progress at least. Now as to the other thing:

whats going on here is people seeing an image of members of the horde and alliance, some of which arent even faction leaders, trying to save the world. and then decrying and insulting the writers because they think it means they are going a certain route with the story, which might not even be bad.

What @Syegfryed and others are reacting to is that the two groups are meant to be opposite each other faction-wise, but that it shows the paucity of the Horde roster. I trust you can understand why people are iffy about Calia, and Vereesa is not only a far less relevant character than any of the faction leaders, but she's also the personal spy of the king. The founding race - the orcs, have no character on hand, because we've killed them for ages, and even people like Talanji and Gazlowe are missing, leaving a roster of secondary characters as compared to the much more appropriate Alliance roster present. Couple that with Tyrande being demonized in having her lash out at Calia, that isn't culpable of anything since she hasn't done anything, rather than those in the Horde who are relevant to accuse.

[Varodoc]

"Just reforge" needs that we go to the Shadowlands, to the forge where was created in the first place, know how to do it and fight the forces of the Jailer at the same time.

It's kind of pointless at the beginning.

You can remove 3 out of those 4 steps, since we go to the Shadowlands in 2 minutes and go to the forge where it was created during Thorgast runs, and killing the forces of the Jailer is not hard since we are the protagonist and thus will never lose. Learning how to do it shouldn't be hard either, actually doing it is the thing that could take some time.

[Fewane]

Calia as an oblivious ruler while others are in charge of the specifics would actually be pretty funny, I'll give you that. It'd give the Forsaken some of their humour back, which is a really underestimated element of the race, instead of the obsession with being bitter sadsacks.

I loved the Burtonesque "gleefully camp evil" vibes of the Forsaken had in Classic and partially in WotLK, from the over-the-top Nightmare Before Christmas architecture to the silliness of some of the apothecaries' plots. In the whole BfA, the only happy-go-lucky type of Forsaken were the group in Nazmir led by Chadwick Paxton. That easily missable questline was pure gold. :P

"Boss, how did you survive? I saw you get cut in half."
"Ugh, Clayton, we're undead, of course we can survive getting cut in half."
"Sometimes."

"Does it seem like overkill to anyone else that we annihilated several scores of Sethrak over killing a few of us?"
"No."
"Nope."
"Not in the slightest."
"...Right. Just me, then."

[Varodoc]

- - - Updated - - -

it says she forged a connection to it SIMILAR to his. it doesnt mean her soul is in there. its basic Thaumatergy. he was connected magically to it, she is too. so he can sense her, like how you use a lock of hair for a tracking spell

No? He doesn't use the word "similar" once, he literally says she bound herself to the Helm much like he did when he became Lich King.

[Super Dickmann]

@Fewane

That questline made me happy. Especially seeing them pop back in the War Campaign. I'm glad at least the incidental writers still remember that the Forsaken are also meant to be fun.

[Tharivor]

Couple that with Tyrande being demonized in having her lash out at Calia, that isn't culpable of anything since she hasn't done anything, rather than those in the Horde who are relevant to accuse.

This strikes me as significant: either the devs "kind of forgot" Calia's entire backstory and the fact she's not even official Horde yet or they're deliberately using Tyrande to try and breadcrumb Calia joining the Horde. Either way its laughable.

[Timester]

You can remove 3 out of those 4 steps, since we go to the Shadowlands in 2 minutes and go to the forge where it was created during Thorgast runs, and killing the forces of the Jailer is not hard since we are the protagonist and thus will never lose. Learning how to do it shouldn't be hard either, actually doing it is the thing that could take some time.

Except you have to do all the 3 steps to reach the fourth. And Sylvanas is just a lieutenant of all happening in the Shadowlands.

That would be just like going to Draenor, ignore the Iron Horde invading us, kill Garrosh and call it a day.

[Varodoc]

Except you have to do all the 3 steps to reach the fourth. And Sylvanas is just a lieutenant of all happening in the Shadowlands.

That would be just like going to Draenor, ignore the Iron Horde invading us, kill Garrosh and call it a day.

Uhm, Sylvanas is the second-in-command of the Jailer and one of the greatest threats to Azeroth, finding a way to kill her should be a top priority. And as I said I dont even understand why you are putting "going to the Shadowlands" there as if it were an important step, it's literally the first thing we do in the expansion called Shadowlands.

It seems like you want to argue about something that is utterly pointless. I didn't even ask if it were likely to happen, I just asked if destroying a reforged Helm would kill her if her soul is bound to it.

[Fewane]

That questline made me happy. Especially seeing them pop back in the War Campaign. I'm glad at least the incidental writers still remember that the Forsaken are also meant to be fun.

Damn, I missed their popping back. Checking google/wowpedia/wowhead just mentions them being in one of the asaults but cannot find which. Do you remember which one? (Checked Nazmir assault as the obvious one, but didn't find mentions of them there)

[Timester]

Uhm, Sylvanas is the second-in-command of the Jailer and one of the greatest threats to Azeroth, finding a way to kill her should be a top priority. And as I said I dont even understand why you are putting "going to the Shadowlands" there as if it were an important step, it's literally the first thing we do in the expansion called Shadowlands.

So was Garrosh, the second in command of the Iron Horde and the biggest threat to Azeroth. Did it change anything?

That's why we always strike the bases and the plots, and truly understand the danger and the enemy in the first place.

And the player is the only one that escapes from the Maw and slowly builds up the field for the rest of the factions to be able to strike. So, yes, you keep ignoring that all the steps are needed to reach the Forge. This if the Jailer doesn't release her from the Helm in the meantime.

[Mehrunes]

2) Valeera is a blood elf, she is mostly independent, but she is a blood elf nonetheless. I never saw you all complain in Cataclysm when Lilian Voss runs from the Horde to slaughter the Scarlet Crusade, she was an undead yes, she was a forsaken but mostly independent like Valeera, yet you guys complain about one, but not the other. I think your problem is not related to which faction they support, rather than to the poor character building and you honestly cant expect ANYTHING from blizzard to either faction, just be happy your race has characters with story, last dwarf who appeared on WoW story in a top spot (taking out the diamond statue) was Kurdran in Cataclysm and even that was a mistake on Blizzard's part.

Voss wasn't a Forsaken until shortly prior to BfA. Which, you know, she herself states at the start of BfA. And that very fact has been used to criticize her prominence as a Forsaken character at the expense of characters that have actually been members of the Forsaken for more than a year (which extends beyond Voss because aside from the characters that got hit with the villain bat all the prominent "Forsaken" character we've had as of late were people like Zelling, undead Night Elves and Calia). And Valeera is a sworn servant of House Wrynn. And just like Voss admitted she wasn't Forsaken just until the last expansion, in the past Valeera admitted she's not Horde. So gee, whyever would people find it annoying that she's presented as some prominent Horde character now.

[Varodoc]

So was Garrosh, the second in command of the Iron Horde and the biggest threat to Azeroth. Did it change anything?

That's why we always strike the bases and the plots, and truly understand the danger and the enemy in the first place.

And the player is the only one that escapes from the Maw and slowly builds up the field for the rest of the factions to be able to strike. So, yes, you keep ignoring that all the steps are needed to reach the Forge. This if the Jailer doesn't release her from the Helm in the meantime.

And you keep ignoring my question for the sake of arguing over a pointless thing... Typical MMO-Champion I guess.