Tearing down historical statues the European edition

[Zan15]

You realise you should be adding an extra 7k on top of that right so you should be saying 15k for that pregnancy not 30-50k.

Do you think insurance suddenly rids you of monthly premiums?

I figured that was an basic assumption of our discussion.

ok so

Pay 15k or pay 30-50k depending on type of pregnancy.

well shit. that really changes it.


BTW I didn't get into nick picky detail but you can get plans on the ACA with 4k out of pocket that cost substantially less than 7k a year for an individual making the income we are talking about.

[Grapemask]

Slippery slope has actually been pretty accurate in recent times. "Lol.. what will they do next? Tear down Thomas Jefferson or George Washington?" And look. They are trying to do that now.

Unemployment checks of $600 a week during corona? "Give us this unemployment check forever so we never have to work again!"

Once you give an inch, they'll try to steal a mile.

Enough pages passed by the time I saw this response that I wanted to let it go, but man, this is some nuttery. I don't want to drive this too far off topic, but...

Conservatives: "We need to reopen and sacrifice people to coronavirus because THE ECONOMY! People need money!"

Also conservatives: "We need to let millions fall into financial ruin and cause economic collapse because it's so unfair that they get money!"

It's as if you guys don't actually have any beliefs or principles or convictions, and just scream anything that conservative media puts in your ear regardless how contradictory or how toxic or how absolutely nonsense it may be.

[GreenJesus]

Enough pages passed by the time I saw this response that I wanted to let it go, but man, this is some nuttery. I don't want to drive this too far off topic, but...

Conservatives: "We need to reopen and sacrifice people to coronavirus because THE ECONOMY! People need money!"

Also conservatives: "We need to let millions fall into financial ruin and cause economic collapse because it's so unfair that they get money!"

It's as if you guys don't actually have any beliefs or principles or convictions, and just scream anything that conservative media puts in your ear regardless how contradictory or how toxic or how absolutely nonsense it may be.

That wasn't my point. They want the uncle sam bucks to keep flowing even after corona is over.

[Muzjhath]

That wasn't my point. They want the uncle sam bucks to keep flowing even after corona is over.

Easy, raise taxes on people earning lots of money. Revoke the Trump Tax Cuts.

It isn't like the US doesn't have the money to afford it. And the money given to the unemployed will go right back into circulation.

[Felya]

Sure, History can be taught to be more about presenting a balanced overview, as opposed to be about all guts and glory. But we can't just reduce someone's character and actions to a single facet or moment of their lives because it happens to coincide with the thing that your movement is fighting agaisnt.

But, a statue is explicitly capturing a single moment. A moment that very often glorifying people, beyond both their historical stature, relevance or realistic representation. On just a superficial level, if looking by statues, the skin care in those days was immaculate. Without context, most statues misrepresent history, not teach it.

I made the point on the 1st page, but I would wager that Churchill is celebrated widely because of his role during WWII. Now, what can be done is verify if history taught in his schools there can factor in the downsides and unfortunate events, and if so, teach them.

But, if people see beyond the widely celebrated, doesn’t that mean they are better educated? Unless they are wrong...

Moreover, it's hard to not frame this indiscriminate toppling as anything but "look at that, it's a statue of a white figure, let's take it down". But I concede the risk that this may be a media driven misinterpretation.

It’s not media driven... the vast majority of statues, specifically from these time periods are of white people. There are no statues of people freeing slaves, that aren’t relatively recent. For example, the Lincoln statue people were using as an example of going too far, were ignoring the black man on his knees also depicted on the same statue.

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That wasn't my point. They want the uncle sam bucks to keep flowing even after corona is over.

Uhm... I pay taxes, not some uncle. The point of me paying taxes, is in part for a social safety net. Yes, people want their taxes to go to helping them in time of need. Complain to the corporations that got a 15% tax cut during a booming economy, but are still demanding tax payer money to stay afloat. Thanks to Trump, there has been a 14% shift in taxes paid by income tax comprising a larger part of all taxes, because corporate taxes dropped so much.

If anything, shouldn’t you be demanding justice, when we don’t have money to pay for a pandemic, with a billionaire for president that argued him paying 0 taxes was smart? Those are not Uncle Sam bucks and the current president celebrates contributing nothing.

[JohnBrown1917]

Easy, raise taxes on people earning lots of money. Revoke the Trump Tax Cuts.

It isn't like the US doesn't have the money to afford it. And the money given to the unemployed will go right back into circulation.

Yeah but they need money to bomb weddings and hospitals in the middle east.

[Edge-]

That wasn't my point. They want the uncle sam bucks to keep flowing even after corona is over.

As part of a longer term recovery? You bet your ass. Just because the immediate threat will eventually be over doesn't mean things will go back to normal.

And frankly, for a lot of folks, unemployment doesn't fucking cut it in the slightest. It's not a permanent program, and knowing many folks on it they'd rather be back at work where they can get health care and other benefits that they cannot receive on unemployment, so this is largely a non-issue.

It's a conservative strawman in the vein of, "Oh, but the welfare queens!" and every other bullshit attack on social safety nets.

[Grimbold21]

But, a statue is explicitly capturing a single moment. A moment that very often glorifying people, beyond both their historical stature, relevance or realistic representation. On just a superficial level, if looking by statues, the skin care in those days was immaculate. Without context, most statues misrepresent history, not teach it.



But, if people see beyond the widely celebrated, doesn’t that mean they are better educated? Unless they are wrong...



It’s not media driven... the vast majority of statues, specifically from these time periods are of white people. There are no statues of people freeing slaves, that aren’t relatively recent. For example, the Lincoln statue people were using as an example of going too far, were ignoring the black man on his knees also depicted on the same statue.

Are they mutually exclusive?

You can have a more comprehensive knowledge of History or of a historical figure and still understand or accept the motive behind the erection of a statue.

But that's the problem. It's the either the ignorance of History or knowledge of it - or of one aspect of it - and wanting (or doing it) to tear them down. It's indiscriminate. It's the observing whatever represents "white" and intending on removing, regardless of the context.

There's been cases of statues of figures that represented noble causes and they're still assailed.

[Easo]

Germany winning against the UK is... a fantasy nothing less. The Battle of Britain caused severe losses for the Luftwaffe, Germany could never really recover. The naval power of Germany was... well pretty much second rate. Italy fielded more, and arguably even better ships, which was more hindered by individual stupidity and faulty quality control. Germany was never in the position to invade the UK. Even more so, after the losses at Norway... 1 Heavy Cruiser down, 4 remaining. 2 Light cruisers down, 4 remaining, approximatly half the destroyer forces down.... And we still have the issue, that Germany had only 1, battleship, that could effectivly fight against british battleships and battlecruisers. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau could not with insufficient armament. You do not get naval supremacy, to be capable for invasion with 1 battleship, 2 "battlecruisers", 4 heavy cruisers, 4 Light cruiers, and some destroyers, against 11 battleships, 3 battlecruisers, 15 Heavy Cruisers 32 Light Cruisers, around 65 destroyers, and 4? if i remember correctly aicraft carrier. No naval supremacy.. no invasion. Insufficient submarine numbers to starve the UK..

Even after Italy binding some forces in the Mediterranian... not enough.

Quite debatable, until the attack on the USSR (yes, I am aware that air battle ended before that. Germany could not afford to put all eggs in one basket), which made Germany split it's forces and the involvement of USA which ensured that any convoy losses would be replaced. The big fleet UK had did not really do much to stop the subs, the danger of starving UK out was real. It all changed later, but... a lot of things changed later.
Germany did make enough mistakes in the air raids and in the intelligence, which played it's role.

Alone? I dont think that in the long run UK had a chance of outproducing the Germany controlling most of Europe, when starved by subs.
Churchill kept the country fighting, especially after the shocking defeat of France, when they might have surrendered more due to the shock than the actualy military situation.

[Jehct]

All confederate statues should be taken down. Military bases should not be flying the Confederate flag. Confederates lost. We will never forget their history and we will definitely still teach all that in school. Monuments/statues are generally built to remember someone or some event. Generally as a thank you or a memory of sorrow. Confederate generals shouldn't be thanked. They lost the war and weren't fighting for the side of true freedom. They were wrong.

Those statues can be destroyed or put in a museum. They should not exist in a public space.

Now a statue of Union generals or people that were fighting to end slavery.. Those probably shouldn't be destroyed.

[NED funded]

Weve moved to Abraham Lincoln of all people

https://wkow.com/2020/06/25/student-...rom-uw-campus/

[Themius]

Weve moved to Abraham Lincoln of all people

https://wkow.com/2020/06/25/student-...rom-uw-campus/

why no context?

"I grew up thinking Abraham Lincoln was this great president, and this really great figure that freed the slaves, because that's what I was taught in high school," she said. "But the Emancipation Proclamation was just a small part."

McWhorter is the president of UW's Black Student Union, and while Lincoln did free the slaves, she says his legacy is much more complicated.

"He signed a lot of acts, like The Homestead Act, The Railway Act, that displaced a lot of Native Americans, displaced them off their land," she said. "Although he freed the slaves, he freed them and gave them no rights, no reparations."

The Black Student Union is now calling on UW to remove Lincoln from Bascom Hill, where he's overlooked part of campus and much of Madison for more than 100 years.

"We want to see the complete removal of Abraham Lincoln," she said.

They also want a giant stone removed, which used to be called "Niggerhead" and was renamed.

[TexasRules]

^^that, and we see people who aren't interested in neither convincing others of the validity of an argument, or convincing others they want you on their side.
They're only interested in arguing just to fuck everyone.

You just summed up almost every post in the political thread. Notice how things always dissolve in to an agenda about progressive American politics. This thread was supposed to be about Europe, but can't have that. Hell I would have even thought the statue of Stalin in Seattle would get mentioned. But your argument is moot as no one here wants to hear the side of someone opposite them, or consider they may have a salient point.

I do believe it is neither/nor or either/or though.

[cubby]

You just summed up almost every post in the political thread. Notice how things always dissolve in to an agenda about progressive American politics. This thread was supposed to be about Europe, but can't have that. Hell I would have even thought the statue of Stalin in Seattle would get mentioned. But your argument is moot as no one here wants to hear the side of someone opposite them, or consider they may have a salient point.

I do believe it is neither/nor or either/or though.

People want intelligent discourse on the issues of our times. Just because you fail, in every instance, to meet that requirement makes you think that "no one here wants to hear the side of someone opposite them", but that's just because you can't uphold your side of a discussion.

The statues of Europe being torn down definitively impact those issues in the United States. How you can't see that this would eventually include the United States in the discussion is just one of the many blinders you purposefully wear.

[NED funded]

why no context?



They also want a giant stone removed, which used to be called "Niggerhead" and was renamed.

The context is that these people are dumb

[Themius]

The context is that these people are dumb

Why? Did you ignore context? He freed slaves but did horrible things that displaced already horribly oppressed Native Americans.

You think it is "dumb" that people take that into consideration?

[NED funded]

Why? Did you ignore context? He freed slaves but did horrible things that displaced already horribly oppressed Native Americans.

You think it is "dumb" that people take that into consideration?

Abraham Lincoln died while ending slavery he could have not done anything more because he was assasinated before the reconstruction.

They are still dumb

[Rennadrel]

Weve moved to Abraham Lincoln of all people

https://wkow.com/2020/06/25/student-...rom-uw-campus/

They've been defacing statues of Sir John A MacDonald here recently. Can't say I'm surprised considering he pretty much founded the residential schools program in Canada.

[Yadryonych]

Abraham Lincoln died while ending slavery

I wonder if he would have changed his mind seeing all that gratefulness

[TexasRules]

People want intelligent discourse on the issues of our times. Just because you fail, in every instance, to meet that requirement makes you think that "no one here wants to hear the side of someone opposite them", but that's just because you can't uphold your side of a discussion.

The statues of Europe being torn down definitively impact those issues in the United States. How you can't see that this would eventually include the United States in the discussion is just one of the many blinders you purposefully wear.

Intelligent discourse? You guys complain and get me banned and the moderators tell me to complain about you specifically and report YOU. But I am not coward like your censoring friends. You want inner circle discourse. You want people to agree with you, you could care less what anyone else thinks, that is why you disagree with anyone who is not voting Biden. You get mad at people who do not like Biden so won't vote for him and say it's a vote for Trump, even though they are not voting Trump. You obviously do not want people to use their freedom unless it matches your choice. So do not give me any of your intelligent discourse. Nobody on here is ranting mad about U.S. Grant or Stevie Ray Vaughn being torn down. Because they are not on your agenda. I am sorry that you have to include your "my view or no view" agenda aka blue no matter what in to every conversation. But I have the blinders. Me and the 120 million people with coronavirus.