"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[Thetruth1400]

There's a sort of trickle-down elitism in WoW, if the big-name guilds do something a certain way, that attitude will show up all over, no matter how pointless it is for what people are actually doing, so if Method says "You have to be with this covenant for your class/spec", suddenly everybody will demand it.

This 100%.

If your average player can see this, I don't get why Blizzard can't. We don't have the access to the data they do, but we've all seen examples where people were sat for one reason or another throughout this games history.

It be interesting to see more of the Blizzard internal data on things, to see if things really are close or if they're wildly skewed and just ignored.
- Does one race dominate PvP?
- Does one race dominate PvE?
- Does one spec dominate?
- Does one talent choice dominate?
- Does one piece of gear dominate?

I'd bet that the answer to all of those is yes.

[Krakan]

You're young, with time you will discover that interests, and focuses change, and people have very different motivations for pursuing the things they do.

True but all rivers flow to the sea eventually...

If your goal is to progress beyond the base level your covenant is going to be biased around a bis list.

- - - Updated - - -

It removes meaingfull choice and being in Night Fae covenant with Necrolord ability doesnt make exactly sense?

You can simply recolor the effects... I can't see this system ending well but at least it seems to not have excessive amounts of rng in it.

[Donimic]

You're young, with time you will discover that interests, and focuses change, and people have very different motivations for pursuing the things they do.

lol, I notice you still have not addressed the fact that you straight up lied about you experience and credentials.

You're old... a liar, think way too highly of yourself, and holy fuck if your post history tells us anything, spend way too much time getting off to elves. You literally have thousands of posts on night/high elves.... go outside and make some friends, even after thousands of posts you are not even coherent on those topics and your posts are full of speculation and logical fallacies. If nothing else. just stick to the lore/rp forums opinions are more flexible over there and you clearly are not qualified to talk about game balance.

[LorDC]

Yes getting rid of power choices will make covenants less meaingfull. You are right artifact system in legion was stupid and should never return. Just becouse there was some really bad system in Legion doesnt excuse that Blizzard is allowed make stupid desing choices for future expansions.

https://youtu.be/t5lWxo3rjvM?t=1064 This sums it up nicely.

How much less meaningful? Because yesterday it was "removes meaningful choice" and now it is "less meaningful".
Regarding artifacts: I don't really remember any complaints from the community about apparent stupidity of being able to get all the artifacts. What I remember is people complaining about having to spent AP on all three of them separately.
Also, doesn't it bother you that Kul-Tiran boars hit harder than Lich King? Should Blizzard remove that too?

That's kinda exactly the point. If your game has enough elements that are difficult to change then the community will adapt around people not being the same. When you can swap freely then you're an asshole if you're not adapting to the situation.

You conveniently forget to mention that those guys are talking about PoE and ARPGs in general, where people not being the same 99.99% of time is their own problem and no one else's, while making and pushing new character into endgame can be easily done over weekend.
Yeah, in ARPG's and SP story-driven RPG's respecs are a non-issue, but how does that relate to MMO's? Right, it doesn't.

[Krakan]

How much less meaningful? Because yesterday it was "removes meaningful choice" and now it is "less meaningful".
Regarding artifacts: I don't really remember any complaints from the community about apparent stupidity of being able to get all the artifacts. What I remember is people complaining about having to spent AP on all three of them separately.
Also, doesn't it bother you that Kul-Tiran boars hit harder than Lich King? Should Blizzard remove that too?


You conveniently forget to mention that those guys are talking about PoE and ARPGs in general, where people not being the same 99.99% of time is their own problem and no one else's, while making and pushing new character into endgame can be easily done over weekend.
Yeah, in ARPG's and SP story-driven RPG's respecs are a non-issue, but how does that relate to MMO's? Right, it doesn't.

Just ride it out. Odds are they will panic and add in extra systems like bfa when it flops again.

[Hitei]

You can simply recolor the effects... I can't see this system ending well but at least it seems to not have excessive amounts of rng in it.

No you can't. Most of the Night Fae effects are flowers/plants/etc. Them being light green isn't going to suddenly make them seem Malxdraxxus appropriate. Recoloring the warrior necrolord banner isn't going to make it not bones. No amount of recoloring is going to make mage's lich CD for necrolord feel appropriate to any other faction.

[Krakan]

No you can't. Most of the Night Fae effects are flowers/plants/etc. Them being light green isn't going to suddenly make them seem Malxdraxxus appropriate. Recoloring the warrior necrolord banner isn't going to make it not bones. No amount of recoloring is going to make mage's lich CD for necrolord feel appropriate to any other faction.

Change the model to trees and call it nature's barrier and have the mage change into a Sprite... this isn't hard.

[hitman84]

Change the model to trees and call it nature's barrier and have the mage change into a Sprite... this isn't hard.

Why is it so hard to understand that we want choices to matter with our RPGs. If they simply change the graphics that's still more work that will be done. What you're effectively asking for is one skill no matter what covenant you join. Again diminishing the importance of the choice of which to join. Not everything, hell most things, should not be designed for the min maxer.

[Echocho]

Why is it so hard to understand that we want choices to matter with our RPGs. If they simply change the graphics that's still more work that will be done. What you're effectively asking for is one skill no matter what covenant you join. Again diminishing the importance of the choice of which to join. Not everything, hell most things, should not be designed for the min maxer.

Yes choice is what we're fighting for. If all choices can only be cosmetic it's a crappy RPG

[Hitei]

Change the model to trees and call it nature's barrier and have the mage change into a Sprite... this isn't hard.

So already you've completely shifted goalposts from "just recolor it" to "make entirely new effects for it", and now you have a watered down ability that instead of feeling like an iconic meeting of mage and death (lich), just involves the mage turning into random shit that has fuck all to do with mages.

[Krakan]

Why is it so hard to understand that we want choices to matter with our RPGs. If they simply change the graphics that's still more work that will be done. What you're effectively asking for is one skill no matter what covenant you join. Again diminishing the importance of the choice of which to join. Not everything, hell most things, should not be designed for the min maxer.

If I'm going to be brutally honest...

You don't want choice or barring that the majority doesn't. WoW for the past 15 years has been a game about maximizing your character for the content you are trying to do.

Even as far back as vanilla there was pvp and pve specs. It was such a annoyance that duel spec then later free respecs became a thing.

It's new and shiny so it excites you but I doubt you actually want a choice and like most players will just google your best.

- - - Updated - - -

So already you've completely shifted goalposts from "just recolor it" to "make entirely new effects for it", and now you have a watered down ability that instead of feeling like an iconic meeting of mage and death (lich), just involves the mage turning into random shit that has fuck all to do with mages.

None of your spells change... a lich is as random as any other themed spell caster.

[Echocho]

Even as far back as vanilla there was pvp and pve specs. It was such a annoyance that duel spec then later free respecs became a thing.

Or it gave your choices meaning. You couldn't be the best at everything all the time, you either had to make compromises or pay the price if being optimal was that important to you.

There is way too much entitlement in this community. We're not entitled to being the best in every situation, especially not when it hurts the foundation of what a RPG is.

[cancel]

Nobody forces u to be part of the meta, if you don't do "end-game" stuff it shouldn't be a problem at all.

If you are doing WQ - nobody cares about covenant ;
If you are doing mythic 0 or low keys - nobody cares ;
If you are focused on achievements/collecting stuff - nobody cares ;

But if you want to be relevant in end-game raid/pvp you have to make sacrifices, since when that is not true??
It is absolutely impossible to make the game without something that is BiS (best in slot / best in situation ).

How come people want something in return for nothing, besides if the end game content is easy that u can do it without req aka cov,bis gear, bis talents etc. It will be plain stupid and unfun.
I don't understand the whole rant about being against something that is logical and healthy, nobody makes you pick the meta, unless you want to be competitive which is logical to every aspect of life and games.

If you race - you do it with a fast car
If you work - you do it with the best tools provided
If you make music - you do it with the best mic/hardware behind it

[Krakan]

Or it gave your choices meaning. You couldn't be the best at everything all the time, you either had to make compromises or pay the price if being optimal was that important to you.

There is way too much entitlement in this community. We're not entitled to being the best in every situation, especially not when it hurts the foundation of what a RPG is.

See this here what you said is what we call fiction.

There wasn't choices. You either specced properly and learned what you should do or you never got anywhere and failed constantly.

I do agree with the entitlement though... imagine being so entitled you would want a game to drastically change after 15 years at the expense of other people because you wanted to feel special.

[LorDC]

There is way too much entitlement in this community. We're not entitled to being the best in every situation, especially not when it hurts the foundation of what a RPG is.

I keep hearing this "foundation of what an RPG is" all the time. The thing is: RPG - is just a TLA (three letter acronym). There is nothing inherently good or bad in adhering to tropes/features associated with it. And having a permanent choice of any kind is not a necessary feature of an RPG. And best modern RPG's don't mix power and plot choices.

So any kind of statement that goes along the lines of "WoW is classified as an RPG therefore having permanent choice is good" just does not have any substance in it.

[A Chozo]

having a permanent choice of any kind is not a necessary feature of an RPG. And best modern RPG's don't mix power and plot choices

It may not be a necessary freature but it's a good one for lots of us, so it's all good and we'll buy the game.

The best modern RPGs mix power and plot choices all the time. The best old RPGs do that too.

Hell, even WoW did that with Legion's class halls and it was critically acclaimed.

[Krakan]

It may not be a necessary freature but it's a good one for lots of us, so it's all good and we'll buy the game.

The best modern RPGs mix power and plot choices all the time. The best old RPGs do that too.

Hell, even WoW did that with Legion's class halls and it was critically acclaimed.

Can you give a source?

I honestly cant recall permanent choices in talents being a thing for close to a decade...


Much less in a game with pve and pvp mixed together.

Wow never did that with class halls... people are not talking about out of combat things here...

[A Chozo]

Can you give a source?

I honestly cant recall permanent choices in talents being a thing for close o a decade...


Much less in a game with pve and pvp mixed together.

Wow never did that with class halls... people are not talking about out of combat things here...

In Chrono Trigger (just one example) you had the critical choice of restoring Frog or taking Magus as a teammate (if I'm recalling right).
In Dark Souls you can only get certain upgrades if you follow the storyline correctly.

Yes, Dark Souls are RPG games and it mixes PvE and PvP together.

WoW literally mixed story with gameplay through the class halls, because you only experimented your class' campaign. People are talking about out of combat things here: the plot.

[Krakan]

In Chrono Trigger (just one example) you had the critical choice of restoring Frog or taking Magus as a teammate (if I'm recalling right).
In Dark Souls you can only get certain upgrades if you follow the storyline correctly.

Yes, Dark Souls are RPG games and it mixes PvE and PvP together.

WoW literally mixed story with gameplay through the class halls, because you only experimented your class' campaign. People are talking about out of combat things here: the plot.

So your example is a 20 year old game... one were it didn't really effect your overall power as you could only use 3 people...

Dark souls has no permanent choice beyond starting class and even that can be circumvented just by grinding more stats...

[A Chozo]

So your example is a 20 year old game... one were it didn't really effect your overall power as you could only use 3 people...

Dark souls has no permanent choice beyond starting class and even that can be circumvented just by grinding more stats...

Yes, I gave you two examples - one old and one new, just to show that RPGs (old and recent) and permanent power choices + plot work and are praised. Also having Magus on your party or not is quite the difference in power.

Dark Souls has several permanent power choices. You literally could kill the person who gave you levels. On Dark Souls 3 I gifted a tongue to Rosaria (joining her covenant), this other chick got mad at me and then I couldn't finish the chick's questline nor get the cool rewards like the ring that reduced fall damage. Some builds only work with specific gear or sorcery, and you can miss some of that stuff if you don't tip-toe the storyline correctly.

But World of Warcraft's elitists can't cope with it. Meanwhile the elites and the casuals will cruise juts fine.