[Spoilers] Shadows Rising Excerpt

[Mardux]

Wow, Talanji is such a stroppy teen, asking for justice over a situation she put her people in. She sought the Horde's help in the middle of a war, after the Horde committed an act of genocide and even gave the Horde safe harbour to attack Kul'Tiras first, unless I'm mistaken the Horde attack in Stormsong happens before any of the war campaign stuff.

You know what else happens before any of the war campaign stuff (and before the tree)? Alliance murdering miners unprovoked in silithus. Alliance willfully sabotaging the peaceful meeting in Arathi. Alliance attacking the horde in stormheim against their kings orders with zero repercussions.

There’s no point in continuing to pretend the alliance can do no wrong and that the horde is responsible for everything bad that happens in the story. We all have access to the lore and anyone who isn’t using world class gymnastics to twist versions of what actually happens can tell that’s not the case.

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Assuming this isn't sarcasm, I don't enjoy how they're written as warmongering blatant hypocrites, how the writers have managed to split the Horde playerbase so we have to keep suffering MoP over and over (expect MoP 3.0 in WoW 11 or 12) due to the Evil Horde fans demanding it, and how the Alliance is relegated to a plot device for the Horde.

Are you serious? Since MoP the horde has only been portrayed as trash to prop the alliance and their deus ex leaders higher up on pedestals.

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Reading this its pretty clear you are the naive one lol. We were naive to believe the devs when they said Tyrande is pissed off and are not done, then we see the Trolls now are even more pissed and seeing Horde is close to always the ones who starts something, it was pretty naive to think the Alliance would start anything in the first place.

And after Before the Storm its pretty much more forgiveness towards the forsaken. And seeing Jaina understands her brother even more understanding is more likely to follow.

To believe the devs when they were so focused on trying to spin Tyrande as mad and the one whos not satisfied when reading whats in the OP here where the trolls wants revenge, now thats stretching. Even I fell for that lol.

Right. It’s not like the entire (shitty) faction conflict of bfa was caused by the alliance and alliance sympathizers. Nope, definitely not. Horde is the one who let calia show up in disguise where they knew she wasn’t supposed to be. Horde is the one who sent SI7 to murder miners. Horde is the one who attacked horde leaders during a ceasefire.

Yup. Horde caused it all. Typical alliance delusions.

[Feanoro]

Well, only of Thrall's Horde. The Horde before him were evil, but they at least they knew they were.

Where? They justified all of their actions as "we have no choice!".

- "The ancestors told us the Draenei, who have lived here peacefully minding their own business for decades, have been secretly plotting against us! Never mind they're so far superior to us they could have wiped us out a long time ago! Never mind this doesn't make any sense, we have no choice!"

- "We have to abandon the elements we supposedly revere in favor of this strange, new, frightening fel magic! They refused to help us slaughter the Draenei! Since we can't be wrong, obviously they are! We have no choice!"

- "Even though we've utterly crushed every Draenei town and village, for Shattrath we need to drink this demon's blood to win! We have no idea why it's offered, some of our leaders have noticed that KJ looks like a Draenei, but screw it! We have no choice!"

- "The Draenei are all but wiped out, and KJ has buggered off! Our world is dying and we're starving! We couldn't possibly have been wrong, so let's build a Path of Glory out of Draenei bones to this Dark Portal Gul'dan says we need. Funny, our lands started dying when he led us in using fel magic, but as an orc, he can't have been wrong! We have no choice!"

- "Let's cut a child's throat in an obscene display to power this portal so we can go to another world since we killed ours! We have no choice!"

- "Azeroth eh? Let's go on a roaring rampage of bloodlusting massacres, looting and burning everything rather than trying to get help! We have no choice!"

- "I, Ogrim, have taken over the Horde! Gul'dan is an evil bastard who damned our people, never mind that we chose to follow every step of the way! I should execute him for causing all this, but I need more of that fel magic that killed Draenor to beat these pesky natives who refuse to lay down and die! I have no choice!"


The entire story of the Old Horde was blaming anyone but themselves for their bad choices. That merrily continues to this day with each Horde race. Sure, they have Watsonian justifications, but they're ridiculously flimsy to the point either credulity breaks or they're simply hypocrites.

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You know what else happens before any of the war campaign stuff (and before the tree)? Alliance murdering miners unprovoked in silithus. Alliance willfully sabotaging the peaceful meeting in Arathi. Alliance attacking the horde in stormheim against their kings orders with zero repercussions.

Nice talking points, all of which have been debunked multiple times on this forum.

Right. It’s not like the entire (shitty) faction conflict of bfa was caused by the alliance and alliance sympathizers. Nope, definitely not.

Given that the story has taken great pains to point out BfA was caused by Sylvanas trying to kill as many as she could for her personal power, you're right. BfA was not caused by the Alliance.

Yup. Horde caused it all. Typical alliance delusions.

Nice RP.

[Soon-TM]

I want him to come and slap Anduin and tell him to man up and stop losing wars by worrying about "What do we become by winning a war for survival..."

Sorry m8, but no one gets to stand up to the boiking and then live to tell the tale. Unless they kowtow to him immediately thereafter.

[Super Dickmann]

Talanji has done absolutely nothing wrong and the only reason Zandalar isn't ruled by a maggot god while she gets to listen to Sadfang and Anduin make the beast with two backs in an Alliance dungeon is the Horde.

[gcsmith]

You know what else happens before any of the war campaign stuff (and before the tree)? Alliance murdering miners unprovoked in silithus. Alliance willfully sabotaging the peaceful meeting in Arathi. Alliance attacking the horde in stormheim against their kings orders with zero repercussions.

There’s no point in continuing to pretend the alliance can do no wrong and that the horde is responsible for everything bad that happens in the story. We all have access to the lore and anyone who isn’t using world class gymnastics to twist versions of what actually happens can tell that’s not the case.

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Are you serious? Since MoP the horde has only been portrayed as trash to prop the alliance and their deus ex leaders higher up on pedestals.

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Right. It’s not like the entire (shitty) faction conflict of bfa was caused by the alliance and alliance sympathizers. Nope, definitely not. Horde is the one who let calia show up in disguise where they knew she wasn’t supposed to be. Horde is the one who sent SI7 to murder miners. Horde is the one who attacked horde leaders during a ceasefire.

Yup. Horde caused it all. Typical alliance delusions.

Wait, did you with a straight face the Alliance sabotaged the meeting in Arathi? One Sylvannas murdered everyone because people might realize that the Alliance don't hate undead? They just didn't believe forsaken weren't a scourge trick to begin with?

[Hyral]

What a weird state this thread is in. Talanji is absolutely right.

I'll be disappointed if we don't see him in Shadowlands, I want him to come and slap Anduin and tell him to man up and stop losing wars by worrying about "What do we become by winning a war for survival..."

Oh how people like you still don't learn the lesson. If Varian shows up and interacts with Anduin it will be to say how wise his son has become and how proud he is that Anduin is pursuing the noble goal of peace by any means, and how even in death he is still learning from Anduin. Remember Golden is in charge now. And she's no stranger to shitting on Varian and "toxic mascullity" whenever she gets a chance to in her social media to divert heat from the boy king. You should be wishing with all your heart dead characters remain dead, away from this mess.

[Feanoro]

Talanji has done absolutely nothing wrong

Except involve her people in a war she knew nothing about while expecting no consequences for that choice. Doylist view, she existed to ruin and displace Rastakhan.

[Super Dickmann]

Except involve her people in a war she knew nothing about while expecting no consequences for that choice. Doylist view, she existed to ruin and displace Rastakhan.

Yeah, I'll give you the latter. But when it comes to the former - if she had not gotten involved with the Horde, her kingdom would be destroyed. The Alliance have no reason to trust the Zandalari of course, but their first encounter with her still consisted of putting her in prison.

[Gigantique]

What a giant load of crap. Jaina was not even there during the fight with Rastakhan...she has litterally done NOTHING to the Zandalari or Talanji...she was just chosen as the Horde's token-victim at the end of the raid because Blizzard could not possibly have it end with the Rastakhan fight.

The Alliance character that delivered the request for surrender was GENN.

Now let's talk about Genn for a second, shall we? He was the ruler of a neutral Kingdom who came under attack by the Horde. His home was destroyed, his family murdered. The Alliance helped them escape and he joined them in turn. Actually, Genn and Talanji are in very similar situations. Only that Genn lost WAY more than Talanji and Little Princess herself took the Horde to Zandalar during a raging war of genocide THAT THE HORDE STARTED. Either she is the most useless POS leader ever, or she KNOWS it was her fault dragging the Zandalari into this war.

Genn is still waiting for his vengeance 10 years later. I would have loved for Voss to stand up and tell Talanji exactly that.

Jaina was/is the Lord Admiral of Kul Tiras, whose fleet made up the bulk of the invasion force iirc, and her flagship leading the charge. She's also the character Talanji, the player and Nathanos see standing atop the ziggurat in Zuldazar looking down at them before entering, and when they reach the top Rastakhan is dead. For sure she was a major player in the assault, even if she wasn't part of the team that directly killed Rastakhan.

[Doffen]

Right. It’s not like the entire (shitty) faction conflict of bfa was caused by the alliance and alliance sympathizers. Nope, definitely not. Horde is the one who let calia show up in disguise where they knew she wasn’t supposed to be. Horde is the one who sent SI7 to murder miners. Horde is the one who attacked horde leaders during a ceasefire.

Yup. Horde caused it all. Typical alliance delusions.

Right, you have no idea what you are talking about. War of The Thorns was started by? Sylvanas had this plan to kill all life with the help of the Horde for many years?

Typical alliance delusions.

I even like the Horde more.

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Nice talking points, all of which have been debunked multiple times on this forum.

Given that the story has taken great pains to point out BfA was caused by Sylvanas trying to kill as many as she could for her personal power, you're right. BfA was not caused by the Alliance.

Nice RP.

Can't believe people still think that BfA was caused by the Alliance after all we have gotten to know about Sylvanas and her plans.

[Insatiable]

Reading this its pretty clear you are the naive one lol. We were naive to believe the devs when they said Tyrande is pissed off and are not done, then we see the Trolls now are even more pissed and seeing Horde is close to always the ones who starts something, it was pretty naive to think the Alliance would start anything in the first place.

And after Before the Storm its pretty much more forgiveness towards the forsaken. And seeing Jaina understands her brother even more understanding is more likely to follow.

To believe the devs when they were so focused on trying to spin Tyrande as mad and the one whos not satisfied when reading whats in the OP here where the trolls wants revenge, now thats stretching. Even I fell for that lol.

Trolls more specifically Talanji since she saw her father get killed and her home raided by the alliance and theirs that. And "Horde is close to always the ones who starts something" guess you forgotten about Blackmoore and I don't know Jaina's dad Daelin. Some may follow Jaina but others wont and just see them as irredeemable monsters. Tyrande and Trolls both want revenge they both got their homes attacked. Anyone can see that.

[Doffen]

Trolls more specifically Talanji since she saw her father get killed and her home raided by the alliance and theirs that. And "Horde is close to always the ones who starts something" guess you forgotten about Blackmoore and I don't know Jaina's dad Daelin. Some may follow Jaina but others wont and just see them as irredeemable monsters. Tyrande and Trolls both want revenge they both got their homes attacked. Anyone can see that.

Yeah, that was also not the point.

Blackmoore? what did he start? Defending the Eastern Kingdoms when the Horde came rampaging? A trigger for Thrall went to start the Horde again? Did Blackmoore start a war? War of Durnholde? Blackmoore was just a drunken idiot.

Daelin? Yeah strange that he had a grudge after the Horde came from another planet to take over Azeroth. Who started really?

The Horde is close to always be the ones to start something. That's what the lore of Warcraft tells us.

[Feanoro]

Yeah, I'll give you the latter. But when it comes to the former - if she had not gotten involved with the Horde, her kingdom would be destroyed. The Alliance have no reason to trust the Zandalari of course, but their first encounter with her still consisted of putting her in prison.

Let's see. First, she was traveling with Zul, the troll who's led all the Zandalari attacks on the Alliance for years. Second, she was on her way to negotiate with the Horde. Nah, let's allow her on her merry little way.

She may have gone to the Horde due to the internal threats in Zandalar, but she gave aid and comfort to the Horde while they were at war and was surprised when there were consequences for that.

[Ardenaso]

Rok'han's words are justified, after all in just Warcraft 3 the Darkspears were naenae'd twice by Kul Tirans in Sen'jin Isle and then in Echo Isles

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Rokhan is actually aggresive against the Alliance?

Shit, he's getting killed off next expansion

A'feeeel ya mon

[Super Dickmann]

Let's see. First, she was traveling with Zul, the troll who's led all the Zandalari attacks on the Alliance for years. Second, she was on her way to negotiate with the Horde. Nah, let's allow her on her merry little way.

She may have gone to the Horde due to the internal threats in Zandalar, but she gave aid and comfort to the Horde while they were at war and was surprised when there were consequences for that.

As said, the Alliance didn't act unreasonably in imprisoning her, but her decision was ultimately massively to the benefit of her people and her not doing it would have ended with her kingdom destroyed. Between an organisation until recently run by a troll and one that includes guys literally called Trollbane it's fairly obvious which side one would take.

[Feanoro]

As said, the Alliance didn't act unreasonably in imprisoning her, but her decision was ultimately massively to the benefit of her people and her not doing it would have ended with her kingdom destroyed.

You'll note there was no disagreement on this point. My point is that she clearly sided with a state at war and was surprised when the enemies of that state treated her as an enemy.

Between an organisation until recently run by a troll and one that includes guys literally called Trollbane it's fairly obvious which side one would take.

I can see her knowing Vol'jin as warchief due to the Zandalari efforts in MoP, but knowing about Trollbane is pushing it a bit.

[Super Dickmann]

I can see her knowing Vol'jin as warchief due to the Zandalari efforts in MoP, but knowing about Trollbane is pushing it a bit.

She's a Vol'jin fangirl canonically so the first is confirmed. Past that, I do recall the trolls getting a raw deal from humans historically being used by the Zandalari envoy to convince Vol'jin in Shadows of the Horde, so while I agree that knowing him specifically would be off, they know enough to use it propagandistically.

[Hyral]

Turns out idiots who only seek conflict talk like idiots

I agree. I'm not sure what that has to do with this though, we are talking about characters that have legitimate reasons to want justice and retribution for wrongs committed to their people, not "only seeking conflict" for the sake of it.

Talanji is a fool if she doesn't comprehend her Father sealed his own fate, and got exactly what he deserved

Again not sure what that has to do with this. She is talking about the Horde doing nothing in retaliation for what the Alliance did to her people despite that being a major reason why they even joined the Horde in the first place after the attack. The Horde is not keeping their end of the bargain and her people are being taken for fools from her perspective, one that's pretty valid if you look at it from what the characters in game know instead of an omniscient spectator.

[Insatiable]

Yeah, that was also not the point.

Blackmoore? what did he start? Defending the Eastern Kingdoms when the Horde came rampaging? A trigger for Thrall went to start the Horde again? Did Blackmoore start a war? War of Durnholde? Blackmoore was just a drunken idiot.

Daelin? Yeah strange that he had a grudge after the Horde came from another planet to take over Azeroth. Who started really?

The Horde is close to always be the ones to start something. That's what the lore of Warcraft tells us.

They held onto old grudges and assumptions that all orcs were bad. Blackmoore did start a war cause he mistreated thrall tried to use him as a weapon and slaved his people. Daelin followed suit and did the same thing. Who started really? Humans did when they just kept attacking them.

[Syegfryed]

oh god, was everything so well until Calia show up, i almost puked, and everything went downhill

fuck this peace shenanigans dear lord, and please stop shoving Calia there Blizzard, who fucking care about an light undead, not the forsaken thats for sure