Reconciling The Horde

[Super Dickmann]

@Quaade

My favorite thing about people obsessing over the faction needing to go through de-Hordeification and visit green guilt seminars is that the same strain of thought would have you conclude that this expansion has been an advertisement for divine right absolute monarchy. All good stems from two blonde blue-eyed white people from prominent families, three if you count Jaina, and they're opposed by a bunch of unwashed savages, of which a brown woman and a mercantile small fat dude with a New York accent are among the most morally bankrupt. Women in positions of power is conclusively shown to be the source of turmoil, war and death, with them repeatedly choosing to put their own emotions and petty grievances over the greater good - in fact, the only woman proud of achieving her position as a woman is the most evil of all.

Of course, that's a load of total bullshit, but it's the same braindead pseudo-analysis that requires the Horde to not be authoritarian or warlike in a game exclusively about war where every group is chiefly defined by the person at the helm who can kick the most ass and where every war is a race war since all races are defined political bodies and are inherently biologically and morally unequal.

[Quaade]

If the orcs knew do you think they would agree?
And why do you treat and ask for them to treat their past as a real life modern meritocracy? Btw alliance is autocracy as well, why isnt it corrupt? Because writters didnt want it to be, even though there wre some real.scummy nobles that would pose immense problems and craft plots against anduin if the story was properly.made.

Why do people want to apply rl concepts to fantasy environments? It's also unrealistic. The only reason we had atrocities with sylv and garosh is because the shallow writing needs conflict between factions that does not really mean something. So atrocity=bad guy which is so bad he seperates from the player's horde!

No, because people like their autonomy. Before they discovered that it was a Faustian deal they drank it willingly once Grom did and then the drink was promised as brew that would make them stronger and unstoppable. Which it did. It did exactly what they had been promised it would do just with an asterisk attached. And again, those nobles would only be a symptom of illness instead of setting the culture that could be found within the Alliance. The things I described is how the COMMON member of the Horde sees things and the common member does create the culture even despite the leader's dictations. They can only force their ideal through using various forms of force or by speaking to emotions.

And the Alliance does have their own problems and it's a lot more democratic than the Horde since the High King is elected by the members of the Alliance instead of being unilaterally chosen by the previous High King and the members can disagree with the Hing King.

The Warchief could unilaterally choose the next Warchief and the leaders of the individual leaders of the Factions had to utterly obey the Warchief even if they disagreed with them. The practical effect of this is the creation of dual loyalty. Which is, you know, an actual argument that runs in the anti-Semitic culture in the US about people who ascribes to Judaism.

And anything in a fantasy universe has the root in our real experiences except for the clearly fantastical. How societies are run is a reflection of how societies and cultures exists in the real world because we can see that. Dragons and such comes straight from our imagination based on the cultural representation of how those things "should" be. You can see this in how Western dragons are lizard-like while the Eastern dragons are snake-like.

[Darth-Piekus]

The title should change. Instead of Reconciling the Horde it should be Will they ever learn? Talanji should beg for forgiveness instead of being bitter talking about revenge cause she knew that her race would be targets the moment they succumbed to the whims of a Coprse Warchief not to mention the fact that Zandalar participated to attacks against Kul Tiras before Kul Tiras was even part of the Alliance in BFA. Also that Orc that wasn't toothless and wanted more bloodshed. The author has some hidden message behind those lines. Is it perhaps a symbolism of the playerbase who at least some of them are playing the wrong game?

[Powerogue]

If anything the story wraps around Sylvanas to give her one undeserved victory after the next while she constantly outplays Anduin.

Preach. The one thing I'm looking forward to in Shadowlands more than any other is Sylvanas, now being a villain apart from the factions, dropping the plot armor so we can kill her for everything she's gotten away with.

- - - Updated - - -

There can be no reconciliation until the Horde reconsciliates with themselves and come to terms with their nationalistic past and the fascistoid nature of their society.

Wasn't that literally the entire point of this expansion?



They did that, decided the only way to move forward from that past was to disband their previous system of governance with a warchief in favor of a council, and established a new order.

[Syrah-the-Old-One]

I still to this day wonder why mods allow faction-bashing threads (meaning mostly "Horde-bashing threads") like what this one has become but keep a keen eye on what's said in the multitude of elven threads in case some kid dies from raging over someone who told him he didn't like elves in his game about Orcs and Humans.

I still wander these forums hoping to see an interesting thread pop up once in a while, but all I've seen fron more than a year are "Why my elf is cuter than yours" threads, and "Horde is genocidal and whe should kill them all (no irony intended)" threads.

What this game's fanbase has become since a few years is 90% why I quit it : whiny attention-seeking brats. And letting this kind of attitude be is why this game has gone further downhill than an armadillo that took speleology lessons.

I'm sick of it.

[Aucald]

I still to this day wonder why mods allow faction-bashing threads (meaning mostly "Horde-bashing threads") like what this one has become but keep a keen eye on what's said in the multitude of elven threads in case some kid dies from raging over someone who told him he didn't like elves in his game about Orcs and Humans.

I still wander these forums hoping to see an interesting thread pop up once in a while, but all I've seen fron more than a year are "Why my elf is cuter than yours" threads, and "Horde is genocidal and whe should kill them all (no irony intended)" threads.

What this game's fanbase has become since a few years is 90% why I quit it : whiny attention-seeking brats. And letting this kind of attitude be is why this game has gone further downhill than an armadillo that took speleology lessons.

I'm sick of it.

What people consider a "bashing" thread is both highly subjective and more or less a valid opinion - people are free to criticize WoW's fictional factions all they like, after all. As for the preponderance of certain types of threads, well, people talk about what they want to talk about. If the subject is a popular one then people are going to keep those threads active, and you'll see variations of them time and time again, that's the nature of the conversational beast. If a topic isn't popular then it'll fall off the page pretty swiftly and languish in obscurity until it is swiftly forgotten. No one person controls that process, nor do I believe they should - it's the natural tidal flow of conversation and debate.

Nothing I can really do about your view of the fanbase, it is what it is and you either deal with it or opt out. If I have no interest in a given thread then I just don't post in it, speaking as a user. Which is why you'll generally not find any input from me in those "Character X is better/more powerful than Character Y" or the various "Power Ranking" types of threads.

[Vakna]

lol how should the horde pay? all leaders killed? all PC turned into alliance characters? no more pvp in game other then friendly duels? all horde npc's just vanishes?

I think the reasonable start would be to start sending victims of their warmongering aid, both in the form of money, resources and rebuilding a city for the Night Elves, and also cleaning up Lordaeron as well.

Nothing can ever truly be done to make up for the horrific acts they've carried out under Sylvanas, but an effort would be nice.

[Syrah-the-Old-One]

snip.

First of all, thanks for answering.

Yet, there's still something I still don't understand about the fact that "people are free to criticize WoW's fictional factions all they like" and not being considered "bashing" : How come the fact that every Horde-related threads are almost instantly being "raided" by people who express their hate toward this faction and their members without any chance for the intended discussion to happen isn't considered "bashing" ?

I understood what you said about the elf threads, the fact that they're popular atm (much to my dismay, but that's not the point), and hence, the need for you mods to keep an eye on them since they attract more people. But if I may offer a suggestion, you should also keep an eye on what I can only call "faction-bashing" when it happens on the very first answers of a thread. (for instance, check the "rightful orcish territory" thread. 1st answer already states "none, they're aliens and should be erradicated" or something)

It makes almost half of the playerbase feel like they're rightfully allowed to bully the other half to me, and I believe that's not ok.

And again, thanks for the quick answer and pieces of explanation.

[Aucald]

First of all, thanks for answering.

Yet, there's still something I still don't understand about the fact that "people are free to criticize WoW's fictional factions all they like" and not being considered "bashing" : How come the fact that every Horde-related threads are almost instantly being "raided" by people who express their hate toward this faction and their members without any chance for the intended discussion to happen isn't considered "bashing" ?

I understood what you said about the elf threads, the fact that they're popular atm (much to my dismay, but that's not the point), and hence, the need for you mods to keep an eye on them since they attract more people. But if I may offer a suggestion, you should also keep an eye on what I can only call "faction-bashing" when it happens on the very first answers of a thread. (for instance, check the "rightful orcish territory" thread. 1st answer already states "none, they're aliens and should be erradicated" or something)

It makes almost half of the playerbase feel like they're rightfully allowed to bully the other half to me, and I believe that's not ok.

And again, thanks for the quick answer and pieces of explanation.

Basically because, as I said above, "bashing" is very subjective and if you asked the people who make Alliance-related threads you'd hear the same claim in reverse, that a bunch of Horde diehards jump into "their threads" and make a mess. That's the problem with factions and bias, both sides basically treat the other side as the enemy, and are automatically inclined to see the worst in their arguments (whether or not they're actually posting in good faith). In a case like that you just have to use the rules as an impartial measuring stick as best you can and make sure everyone follows the rules despite the overall miasma of rancor and bad feelings.

As for your example of the Horde territory thread, well, that's actually a valid opinion - you are allowed to think an entirely fictional race of extraterrestrials (which the Orcs technically are) have no place on a given world and should be sent packing. Not to say that's a correct statement, or that it can't be argued against (it can), but it's a valid position to have in an entirely fictional context. This runs afoul of what I would call the zeroth rule when talking about a story: "don't take things personally." Now if it devolved into someone trying to justify real-world genocide then that's definitely a bridge too far in my view, but we're talking about fiction here - and it's always wise to remember that none of this stuff is real or overly important relative to real life. Someone not liking the Horde, or the Alliance, is not a personal affront to anyone else - the Horde and the Alliance are fantasy organizations in a video game. This isn't an accusation or an implication that I believe you think this, it's just how I approach these kinds of topics.

[Quaade]

Wasn't that literally the entire point of this expansion?

Most likely, and it was done in the dumbest version possible and it was also only one step with removal of the Warchief. The underlying rot that creates a nationalist and fascistoid individual of revisionist history still exists within the Horde. And that's the real problem. Only the symptom instead of the cause has been fixed, which means that the symptom will eventually show its ugly head again, just in another form, as the cause is still around.

[omeomorfismo]

There can be no reconciliation until the Horde reconsciliates with themselves and come to terms with their nationalistic past and the fascistoid nature of their society.

1. The Orcs were never tricked into drinking the blood of Mannoroth. Gul'dan told them that the brew would make them stronger and then they accepted that without question. All that Gul'dan did was that he lied by omission and left out some details that no Orc ever asked about anyway. There would be an argument if Gul'dan had sold the brew as a cure for the Red Pox.

2. They need to stop the irresponsible hero-worship of Grom as pretty much every problem that Grom solved was one that he had created himself.

3. Garrosh and Sylvanas were never glitches in the system, they were products of it. The glitches were Thrall and Vol'jin as they kept the most hideous aspects of the Horde in check.

4. The whole "Alliance is as bad a Horde" is wrong. The Horde as whole committed atrocities based on orders from Garrosh and Sylvanas. Members of the Alliance committed atrocities based on their own values instead of the values of the Alliance.

5. "They're the good guys who are willing to make the pragmatic actions." This is literally a talking point within supremacist, Nationalistic, and Fascistoid cultures. No one is the villain within their own narratives. Saying that unironically is unintentionally defending those kinds of cultures.

6. Blizzard should really hire someone with Sociological qualifications to read through their stuff before they release it into the wild.

lol,i never tought to read a praise of homogenization in a role play game.
whats the problem if some race have a generalized cult of personality? or that have war and conquest as focal point of their culture? or that their religions are the true one and all the heretics need to submit? you pick one and try to behave accordlying of these set of values in a given universe and tale.
i dont need to throw plastic in the compost to enjoy playing forsaken. or bully everyone to enjoy orcs. or be a jihadist/extremist christian to love paladins.

[Feanoro]

Yet, there's still something I still don't understand about the fact that "people are free to criticize WoW's fictional factions all they like" and not being considered "bashing" : How come the fact that every Horde-related threads are almost instantly being "raided" by people who express their hate toward this faction and their members without any chance for the intended discussion to happen isn't considered "bashing" ?

It's cute that you think this is one sided. The main reason you see Alliance posters in Horde threads is that there are basically no Alliance threads. Alliance posters here are those of us too stubborn to leave. Alliance threads got hate bombed to the point people gave up and stopped posting them.

[Quaade]

lol,i never tought to read a praise of homogenization in a role play game.
whats the problem if some race have a generalized cult of personality? or that have war and conquest as focal point of their culture? or that their religions are the true one and all the heretics need to submit? you pick one and try to behave accordlying of these set of values in a given universe and tale.
i dont need to throw plastic in the compost to enjoy playing forsaken. or bully everyone to enjoy orcs. or be a jihadist/extremist christian to love paladins.

What we see in fiction we take into reality. If a group of <bigots> find that the values of the Horde align with theirs then they'll co-opt them until they're twisted beyond recognition. This has already been done with Spartans, Viking, Romans, and Crusaders where they've co-opted the fiction behind those four and twisted them beyond recognition over time.

It has nothing to with throwing plastic, I never said it was and that you even imply that I said anything in that vein is an ad hominem.

Take Rick and Morty. Rick is clearly unsympathetic and would at any point have to reevaluate his beliefs, except that the show shows him as being right, which means that the show unironically says that being an emotionally cold, high functional sociopath is the most optimal way of living your life.

That Blizzard unironically tell that the values and beliefs of the Horde are good things are unintentionally condoning it. And the values and beliefs of the Horde unintentionally align with the values and beliefs of Nationalism and fascistoid regimes in that they have a revisionist history, Orcs were cheated, Trolls were never did anything wrong, the Blood Elves never slowly abandoned the Alliance, in fact, they were abandoned by it and abused by the Alliance when it was just one person acting in opposition to the values of the Alliance, everything the NB did was marginally forgiven because they had a rebellion -after- their leader did something unequivocally bad instead of rebelling when their leaders abandoned their allies so they were totally on board with doing something that ensured their own survivability. The Forsaken are innocent people who were killed, except that they follow, or followed the orders of Sylvanas unquestionably despite how morally questionably they were. And the belief is that "might makes right." Which is fascistoid, get your way by using violence, which is the "might" in "might makes right."

Pretty much the only members of the Horde who comes out clean are the Taurens. HMT and Vulpera. Even the Maghar were all into the planned genocide until the Horde was defeated, it was only because Yriel eventually became worse that they were redeemed in the eyes of the players.

The Horde is a fundamentally broken organization that was never what the Horde claims itself to be and the only way that the Horde can be what they claim to be is to accept all the bad things they did in the past before they formed the Horde or became members of it and are honest about it instead of ignoring and pretending it never happened.

[Raisei]

I understood what you said about the elf threads, the fact that they're popular atm (much to my dismay, but that's not the point), and hence, the need for you mods to keep an eye on them since they attract more people. But if I may offer a suggestion, you should also keep an eye on what I can only call "faction-bashing" when it happens on the very first answers of a thread. (for instance, check the "rightful orcish territory" thread. 1st answer already states "none, they're aliens and should be erradicated" or something)

It makes almost half of the playerbase feel like they're rightfully allowed to bully the other half to me, and I believe that's not ok.

And again, thanks for the quick answer and pieces of explanation.

Before calling it bullying you really should have a closer look at the circumstances. The thread you mentioned started of with the OP pointing at a map, saying that some areas of Kalimdor belong to the Orcs "rightfully".

Among those Darkshore. Even if it would be belonging to the Orcs now (which it canonically does not), then it would have been conquered by War of Thorns and the Burning of Teldrassil, which was a barbaric act and about as far away from "rightful" as you can be. That people react allergic to such a claim is quite normal.

[Mungho]

Before calling it bullying you really should have a closer look at the circumstances. The thread you mentioned started of with the OP pointing at a map, saying that some areas of Kalimdor belong to the Orcs "rightfully".

Among those Darkshore. Even if it would be belonging to the Orcs now (which it canonically does not), then it would have been conquered by War of Thorns and the Burning of Teldrassil, which was a barbaric act and about as far away from "rightful" as you can be. That people react allergic to such a claim is quite normal.

Yeah, that's a good point. I've long thought that the orcs should just give up on Azeroth and find a new world(without intelligent inhabitants) to live on(Outland is slowly disintegrating, so that's out). But that would leave all the other races of the horde behind.

Of course, the current state of the horde is only because of bad writing and the nature of this game being an mmo. I once thought of writing a continuation of Warcraft 3 that would follow a logical plot not constrained by being an mmo. But then I thought, 'Why should I care this much about the story when the writers don't?' it just seems idle to spend time on such a project.

[Syrah-the-Old-One]

Before calling it bullying you really should have a closer look at the circumstances. The thread you mentioned started of with the OP pointing at a map, saying that some areas of Kalimdor belong to the Orcs "rightfully".

Sure, but remember that was only ONE example And yes, the writing is also to blame about this, making Horde the defaut villain provider since Pandaland.

It's cute that you think this is one sided. The main reason you see Alliance posters in Horde threads is that there are basically no Alliance threads. Alliance posters here are those of us too stubborn to leave. Alliance threads got hate bombed to the point people gave up and stopped posting them

That's probably true, but it doesn't make it right tho. "Bullying" people because you were bullied yourself isn't going to solve anything. Instead of "breaking the cycle", these people fully gave in to it just because they were on the right side of the stick this time. It's a weak behaviour in my book anyway.

[LorDC]

What need reconciliation is writers' vision of what the Horde is. Are they noble savages? Band of grizzled survivors? Actual evil empire SWTOR-style?
Over the course of WoW history they managed to push Horde just meandered between those concepts with and it both looked and felt bad.

[Soon-TM]

What need reconciliation is writers' vision of what the Horde is. Are they noble savages? Band of grizzled survivors? Actual evil empire SWTOR-style?
Over the course of WoW history they managed to push Horde just meandered between those concepts with and it both looked and felt bad.

I'd actually be fine with either of them, as long as writers actually stick to the characterisation, instead of this constant flip flopping which is annoying as all !@#$.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, that's a good point. I've long thought that the orcs should just give up on Azeroth and find a new world.

That's like saying that all Americans of European heritage should immediately pack their luggage and gtfo from North America, since after all their ancestors didn't belong to the land, enslaving or even outright slaughtering lots of Native Americans and Africans, both before AND after the declaration of independence. Applying RL standards to Azeroth has some quite funny quirks

[Mungho]

I'd actually be fine with either of them, as long as writers actually stick to the characterisation, instead of this constant flip flopping which is annoying as all !@#$. That's like saying that all Americans of European heritage should immediately pack their luggage and gtfo from North America, since after all their ancestors didn't belong to the land, enslaving or even outright slaughtering lots of Native Americans and Africans, both before AND after the declaration of independence. Applying RL standards to Azeroth has some quite funny quirks

Well, I meant it more as the alliance races will always hate them(of course, due to the writers making them do horrible things over and over), so they could just move to another planet all their own.

[mickybrighteyes]

I'd actually be fine with either of them, as long as writers actually stick to the characterisation, instead of this constant flip flopping which is annoying as all !@#$.

QFT. Some consistency and not doubling back to retread the exact same stories... but with a slight twist...

We didn't need the story to bascially redo MoP's civil war story all over again with new characters and an even more blatant smacking of "don't follow warmongers" motif (which lol when it turns out we're supposed to be enlightened and follow the blond haired, blue eyed poster child of the rightful rulers who know what is best for us)

That's like saying that all Americans of European heritage should immediately pack their luggage and gtfo from North America, since after all their ancestors didn't belong to the land, enslaving or even outright slaughtering lots of Native Americans and Africans, both before AND after the declaration of independence. Applying RL standards to Azeroth has some quite funny quirks

Lets just go full retard... it's telling the "orcs" to "go back to africa"....

Since people these days are saying things about what "orcs" are in fantasy settings.