The Misunderstanding Of "Rejection Of The Gift"/ The Lightbound

[Wylyth1992]

I believe the point is not to show that "the Light is also bad" or some bs like that, I believe the point is to show that the Naaru is not infallible and that basing one's religion around them may not be the best idea. Groups like the Scarlet Crusade prove you don't have to be good to use the Light.

[Velshin]

The light is not good or bad it is just a tool that require faith to use, that is all.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I believe the point is not to show that "the Light is also bad" or some bs like that, I believe the point is to show that the Naaru is not infallible and that basing one's religion around them may not be the best idea. Groups like the Scarlet Crusade prove you don't have to be good to use the Light.

Yes... we know.


This was illustrated back when it first was shown and discussed regularly ever since.

[Frozenbeef]

"misunderstanding" she went full of Rapey Mcwindchime on him after repeatedly telling her no.

[Caerule]

There are forces among the Light that strive for balance, like A'dal, and forces that strive for dominance of the Light, like Xe'ra the Lightmother. The Light can't distinguish between the two. It has many good properties, but you mostly seem to attune to it through a focus on purity, faith and (self-)righteousness. That alone does not make you a good person.

I think every cosmic force has folks striving for balance, and folks striving for dominance. Some just more of one type due to the nature of beings the force.

You can easily see why someone of the Light might come to prefer it to become the dominant force though. Once, all was Light. But it's been the underdog for a long time. Now, it has a chance to change all that. And it does offer beneficial power, and looks a lot more inviting than most other cosmic forces.

[Saltysquidoon]

Nothing about the Naaru makes sense really if you think about it too long and anything that was hammered down behind the scenes has almost assuredly been changed over time.

Naaru are meant to be pure crystalised light and are also essentially the only manifestation we've ever seen of the light. At the same time they aren't even close to titan levels, old god levels or even high-level demons. And they're the only 'higher beings' that 'reverse' themselves. How come when we shanked c'thun to death he didn't become ligh'thun?

There are also a bunch of legacy motivations that don't really make sense anymore. The old gods, servants of the void lords want to corrupt titan world souls because ???. The naaru servants of the light want to fight the burning legion who are agents of chaos and also actively fighting the void because ???.
It's pretty obvious that the original intent was the old gods v titans was chaos against order and the light v the legion was good versus evil. Now that they've changed it up nothing really makes sense anymore.

[Varodoc]

Nothing about the Naaru makes sense really if you think about it too long and anything that was hammered down behind the scenes has almost assuredly been changed over time.

Naaru are meant to be pure crystalised light and are also essentially the only manifestation we've ever seen of the light. At the same time they aren't even close to titan levels, old god levels or even high-level demons. And they're the only 'higher beings' that 'reverse' themselves. How come when we shanked c'thun to death he didn't become ligh'thun?

There are also a bunch of legacy motivations that don't really make sense anymore. The old gods, servants of the void lords want to corrupt titan world souls because ???. The naaru servants of the light want to fight the burning legion who are agents of chaos and also actively fighting the void because ???.
It's pretty obvious that the original intent was the old gods v titans was chaos against order and the light v the legion was good versus evil. Now that they've changed it up nothing really makes sense anymore.

The answers to these questions are pretty obvious.

1) The Old Gods are creations of the Void Lords, who carry out their master plan of corrupting a Void Titan and unleashing it upon the universe.
2) The naaru defied the Legion because Sargeras sought to destroy everything. The Light does not want to rule over a smoldering ash wasteland.

[StillMcfuu]

I believe the point is not to show that "the Light is also bad" or some bs like that, I believe the point is to show that the Naaru is not infallible and that basing one's religion around them may not be the best idea. Groups like the Scarlet Crusade prove you don't have to be good to use the Light.

The light and the void aren't good or bad, the creatures within them are the offending force.

The Naaru have their own agenda, while we align roughly along that agenda they seem like allies, but that's a mistake on our part. The Naaru will resort to any actions the same way void lords will. And we have xalatath as an example of an "ally".

That's the whole point of what people boil down to "light is also bad". There is no good or bad with them, their war is separate from our concerns, but we occasionally intersect.

[Powerogue]

More or less. As we see with the Lightbound in particular, too much on that end of the spectrum yields zealotry and overwhelming control to the point of timeless imprisonment.

Something Illidan in particular is well acquainted with, actually.

[Schattenlied]

The answers to these questions are pretty obvious.

1) The Old Gods are creations of the Void Lords, who carry out their master plan of corrupting a Void Titan and unleashing it upon the universe.
2) The naaru defied the Legion because Sargeras sought to destroy everything. The Light does not want to rule over a smoldering ash wasteland.

The Light doesn't want to rule over anything.

The Naaru are not The Light, they are just beings born of it... They do not represent it's will, they are just it's strongest wielders. The Light doesn't care who uses it or for what, including fighting other light wielders, so long as they believe their cause is righteous they will be able to call on it... The Light is honestly rather neutral.

[Jinnobi]

The Light is inherently good. The issues surrounding the Light stem from its followers, and their interpretations of what is good.

For example, Uther participated in the cerimony to strip Tirion's connection to the Light away. Not only was that a clear misinterpretation of the Light's "will" (Orcs are not evil, and Tirion was correct to defend one) but it was also ineffective: it failed to strip Tiron's connection to the Light. Uther wasn't evil by any means, but he was a victim of his era in some regards and unfortunately believed some fucked up shit.

It is important to realize, however, that Uther could also use the Light despite believing said fucked up shit and associating with those who believed the same. (Also, to say Uther was anything less than a hero would be to minimize or deny the vast majority of his actions and beliefs.) Moreover, evil beings can access the Light - so long as they have the faith to do so.

But as in real life, so in Warcraft: having enough faith to access the Light's power and work miracles does NOT make one a good person i.e. your abilities do not define your morality or relationships. The power of the Light can (and sometimes is) divorced from the goodness of the Light. And that isn't because the Light is weak, but because it is gracious enough to empower all who call upon it -- instead of all who hold the correct beliefs only.

I think it is self-evidence that the Light itself is a force of pure goodness, just as Void is a force of pure evil. It doesn't follow that the beings who FOLLOW such forces are all good or all evil. But trends do exist.

[Encaitar29]

Well, aside from everything mentioned, remeber that back in the BC times, specifically before 2.4 came out on PTR and we had any information regarding it, there was the rumour that Naaru are actually evil? The remains of those fake spoilers can even be found on the Naaru page on WoWiki
I guess apart from any lore reason that Blizzard might have decided to add to the whole "balanced cosmology" (with which they came up only recently) I guess they might've just wanted to play that trope and players' old theories with Xe'ra's character.

[Nerovar]

I never thought of the Light as "bad" for aiding Scarlets, Yrel, especially authoritarian Naaru etc. because that's a really weird and arbitrary line to draw. Sure, we might think of these individual cases as bad and by an extension view the Light itself as at least morally ambiguous but I don't think that's a particularly helpful view. After all, truly how much worse are these "bad apples" than the game's hereditary monarchies like the Kingdom of Stormwind or Lordaeron which are also aided by the Light?

I think it's really simple. The Holy Light truly cares about its children and doesn't simply abandon them even if they go down a dark path because it truly wants them to be redeemed. There is a section in the Arthas novel right after Arthas accepts the curse and thereby frees Frostmourne from its prison, "sacrificing" () his friend in the process. Right there he's pretty much at his lowest point and has long lost his faith in the Light and his ability to wield it - but it still comes back to him, offering solace to him (until of course it gets blotted out by Ner'zhul's influence). I think the Light truly is a benevolent force - it merely judges it better to bring good out of evil, than to suffer no evil to exist and it doesn't abandon its faithful servants.

The Light is inherently good. The issues surrounding the Light stem from its followers, and their interpretations of what is good.

For example, Uther participated in the cerimony to strip Tirion's connection to the Light away. Not only was that a clear misinterpretation of the Light's "will" (Orcs are not evil, and Tirion was correct to defend one) but it was also ineffective: it failed to strip Tiron's connection to the Light. Uther wasn't evil by any means, but he was a victim of his era in some regards and unfortunately believed some fucked up shit.

It is important to realize, however, that Uther could also use the Light despite believing said fucked up shit and associating with those who believed the same. (Also, to say Uther was anything less than a hero would be to minimize or deny the vast majority of his actions and beliefs.) Moreover, evil beings can access the Light - so long as they have the faith to do so.

But as in real life, so in Warcraft: having enough faith to access the Light's power and work miracles does NOT make one a good person i.e. your abilities do not define your morality or relationships. The power of the Light can (and sometimes is) divorced from the goodness of the Light. And that isn't because the Light is weak, but because it is gracious enough to empower all who call upon it -- instead of all who hold the correct beliefs only.

I think it is self-evidence that the Light itself is a force of pure goodness, just as Void is a force of pure evil. It doesn't follow that the beings who FOLLOW such forces are all good or all evil. But trends do exist.

Good post. Agreed.

[Eto Demerzel]

I believe the point is not to show that "the Light is also bad" or some bs like that, I believe the point is to show that the Naaru is not infallible and that basing one's religion around them may not be the best idea. Groups like the Scarlet Crusade prove you don't have to be good to use the Light.

The approach that you should take to this is not around evil or good, rather than logical or non-logical.

Think like this, Xe'ra tried to enforce the light into Illidan because (what Xe'ra thinks) it would save the galaxy from the Legion by just enforcing a non-desired trait unto a single member of the galaxy. Spock's logic: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

Or at least thats the focus i think Blizzard will tell, i mean, if the world was a homongeneous light-loving place were everybody was a zealot righteous crusader... the Legion would fall, the Void would fall, the Old Gods, everything evil would fall, but that does not mean the light wont be ruthless against what stands in his path.

[Varodoc]

The Light doesn't want to rule over anything.

The Naaru are not The Light, they are just beings born of it... They do not represent it's will, they are just it's strongest wielders. The Light doesn't care who uses it or for what, including fighting other light wielders, so long as they believe their cause is righteous they will be able to call on it... The Light is honestly rather neutral.

By "Light", I mean the major Light-affiliated factions.

[Selastan]

I don't know, that felt pretty bad. Like, that cutscene (the best in the game, IMO) felt straight up horror to me. I don't know if it's intentional, but the Naaru have ALWAYS felt uncomfortable, at the most. They look completely alien and show no expression, yet they have cosmic power levels and can directly manipulate your thoughts and emotion. They embody that sort of sci-fi horror that comes form evil AI. When I first met A'dal, I didn't feel the sense of peace that the textbox said, but was instead reminded of 'I Have No Mouth and Must Scream'. Talking with Naaru feels like watching surgery on a numbed body part, the fact that they beam peaceful feelings into your mind covers up the fact that they are directly manipulating your thoughts and feelings, just like the fact that while the doctor IS healing you, they are cutting open your skin and manipulating your flesh to do so.

Of course, that just may be my interpretation. I love BC far more than anyone else I met, and I may be just inserting my own creativity into a bland expansion instead of seeing depth and subtlety that no one else does. But everything that expands on BC lore builds upon what I always felt and theorized. I'm pretty sure that 'Rejection of the Gift' was supposed to move that plot into the light. Naaru are evil.

[Schattenlied]

By "Light", I mean the major Light-affiliated factions.

Be less vague in the future, because "The Light" is isn't own thing, you can't use the name of one thing to blanket refer to other things related to it.

[Varodoc]

Be less vague in the future, because "The Light" is isn't own thing, you can't use the name of one thing to blanket refer to other things related to it.

Not really. Your clarification was utterly pointless and did not change my point in any way. You know, the point about the forces of the Light seeking to protect the universe from those that would destroy it.

[huth]

The Light is inherently good.

The Light is not inherently good. It is just considered overall more favourable to mortal existence based on what we know. But it's also become clear that we don't really know all that much about any of these forces.

[voidox]

the ppl who say "the light is evil" don't get that naaru =/= light

the light is a fundamental force of the universe like the void is. But the light is considered "good" cause of it's effects: "Light is often said to bring about feelings of positive emotion—hope, courage, comfort—and the like, Shadow abilities are the opposite, able to impart feelings like despair, doubt, and panic"

light does things like heal, protect, restore and such. Characters who use the light never have to fight invading voices or control the way characters who wield the void have to constantly do.

and then the fact that light is literally the source of all life in warcraft's universe

now of course, either force can be used for good or bad as we have seen many times but we have a lot more examples of light being used for good/healing/protection/so on while void being used for bad/evil/chaos/w.e
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as for naaru, it's amazing how many people use the actions of Xe'ra and apply it to all naaru -_-

Xe'ra =/= all naaru

now yes she was a prime Naaru, but we know she's not the only prime naaru.

But that aside, Xe'ra's actions were indeed going bad and all, but she was still the one who was fighting the legion for centuries. While her goal was for good and to save everyone from the legion, her actions went too far. I would not say she was evil, but then that's open to discussion

as for the naaru as a race, no they are not suddenly all evil cause Xe'ra went crazy. We have always seen the Naaru doing good and their actions were for helping/saving/protecting people. The actions of one naaru does not suddenly mean they are now all evil and want to rule/kill us :/

in the end, naaru are a race like any other
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as for the void lords, well straight up evil and that reflects to the nature of the void seeing as the prime beings of the void are:

"The void lords are monstrous entities composed of pure shadow energy who rule over the void, outside the borders of reality. Merciless and cruel beyond imagination, they seek only to twist reality into a realm of eternal torment, and ultimately to devour all matter and energy and the universe itself."