Players Must Reject Blizzard Divisiveness

[Skytotem]

Is there any data (like poll or a megathread) on where I can read up and get up to date what "the playerbase" (whatever the f... that is) wants? Other than some sort of vague vibe you get from the few ppl that agree with your own sentiments on forums or youtube.

What are the concerns in concrete terms?

No, something like that is more BLIZZARDS job, no poll here would be able to be broad enough to cover the issues. You'd need multiple polls on multiple subjects over a long period of time if you only used MMO Champ.

[Ardenaso]

WC2 Horde players shouldn't even exist

unfortunately there are WC2 purists just as WC3 purists exist

[Skytotem]

I wasn’t trying to impugn anyone who is passionate about lore; I am fairly passionate about the lore and story myself, I just don’t think there is a large enough portion of the player base that cares deeply enough about game lore and story to make Blizzard change story arc direction, as the OP suggests should happen by our active feedback.

The story ABSOLUTELY matters, otherwise they wouldn't bother having news articles online for advertising expansions based on it and whatnot.

Speak for yourself. There are so many people that wants same thing that Garrosh wanted.
People who don't like things are just more loud. Same with Vol'jin or Sylvanas or even Thrall. All of them use some agenda that some people like.
There are people who want united faction and people who hate Alliance as real enemy.

This is partly true, but a big reason a lot of people like Garrosh is because Blizz kept telling us that he'd improve and mature, and then he... didn't.

[Directionalk9]

I am of the opinion that the reason Blizzard has been able to skate by with their atrocious writing is that so many players buy into the "Who has it worse" feud with regards to the bad writing or favoritism.

Despite the faction wars usually having some of the worst writing I've also felt that they could be some of the best if Blizzard BOTHERED to have consistency and attention to detail.

Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".


#LoreUnion

What do you mean when you say “Blizzard skates by with their bad writing”?

There isn’t a single lore/story related thread anywhere in which their bad writing isn’t brought up. I don’t think that’s “skating by”

[Skytotem]

What do you mean when you say “Blizzard skates by with their bad writing”?

There isn’t a single lore/story related thread anywhere in which their bad writing isn’t brought up. I don’t think that’s “skating by”

They don't change anything though, the outcry is never bad enough for them to make meaningful changes or explain their process for fear of scrutiny.

[taishar68]

The story ABSOLUTELY matters, otherwise they wouldn't bother having news articles online for advertising expansions based on it and whatnot.

I’m not saying it doesn’t matter, nor implying it. I think Blizzard responds to feedback in small ways, with lesser characters and the like; but I believe when you have a group of writers who have passionate ideas and they invest a lot of time and effort, on Blizzard’s dime no less, I don’t think they would make sweeping changes to the story unless a huge portion of the player base was bombarding them with constant feedback. Which despite the passion displayed in this forum and other places, I don’t believe is occurring.

But let me be honest and cynical; I think given today’s cancel culture cancer that infests social media, it would not surprise me if something was changed to appease that particular mob, no matter the actual size. Which is completely different than using feedback based on how we see the Horde and Alliance in game.

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They don't change anything though, the outcry is never bad enough for them to make meaningful changes or explain their process for fear of scrutiny.

That is what I was trying to say.

[Manariel]

It's a good point, but the problem is people, watch this thread descend into fighting, Instead of coming g together. Blizzard have pushed this divide in their narrative. Fans take sides of their favourite, but forget they are not living in the game and have 3rd person view, so they can put aside the bickering g and unite to insist on a better narrative.


Problem is, when people like me suggest a better narrative, focusing on my race, Instead of hordies going "hey, I like that night elves come off better, here is what I'd like to do for Tauren and Nightborne, " they instead attack me and what I suggest in what I can only conclude is an "I dont want your guys to look better than mine , so no" attitude. I noticed a particular bunch of horde fans has been doing this a lot, promoting g that divisiveness instead of cohesion, high elf discussions epitomised this.

It's a mentality they have to shake, I care about nelves so obviously I write pieces on them, they'd rather knock that than come up with interesting or more thorough variations of what blizzard writes for the races they like.

Until they can overcome this , what you propose wouldn go very far.

Mnor tidbit - you care about highborns, not Night Elves. What made those great in Warcraft III was actually the exact opposite of what you want for them. I'd hate for Night Elves to be even more gutted than they are, by becoming inferior versions of BE and NB...

And frankly, at this point, I don't give a fuck about the division. I'd just love the parts of the Alliance who wants war with the Horde, no matter the means or costs to be propped up by the story like Garrosh/Sylvanas loyalists were, even if I know the costs of it. One can only be beaten only to be put in his cage so many times, after all...

[TheFirstOnes]

Oh, just be quiet and help us defeat Sylvanas and the Jailer. *Gives Sword* We need ya, soldier.

[MrWolly]

I could always just challenge Danuser to Mok’gora and save us all. Trust me. It would be better for everyone

[Logwyn]

Basically wow goes like this...

Alliance and Horde fight until oh crap! The big bad guy shows up then they team up and win. Then LETS FIGHT AGAIN!. Until the next big bad guy shows up and there is a need to team up.

The horde and alliance have teamed up to fight The Lich King, Deathwing, the Sha, the Legion, An Old God or two, and heal Azeroth. Up next is the need to fight against the Jailor/Sylvanis (maybe?)

The back and forth we're stronger together if we team up to fight whatever and then once that is over let's just fight! Is kinda illogical and repetitive.
Blizzard really needs to figure out how to mix up that cycle. I'm not sure if it's breaking the factions apart and re-forming them. Adding another faction but allowing you to team up with anyone and everyone if you want.

[omeomorfismo]

I've always considered that posting regularly in the lore forum for a given game basically implies you have a preset level of passion - enough that you'll actually enter into conversation to discuss the story of a video game. If you don't really care about said game, it seems unlikely that anyone would really do that, at least to me.

That is one thing that's kind of always confused me, actually. There are a *lot* of people on this subforum who are very vocal about this distaste or dislike of the game's story, and yet very regularly participate in the various conversations surrounding it. If you don't like it or aren't interested in it, it seems odd to me that you'd essentially waste your time talking about it as opposed to doing something else you actually enjoy. I mean, people are free to do whatever they like at the end of the day, but that still seems weird to me.

because you know, if partecipating means that i can save my 11 years old rp, why not?
it worked for saurfang questline and that bullshit forsaken intro description.

[matrix123mko]

Exactly, but it's not as difficult to reconcile the Horde's two directions as people make it out to be, Blizz has just made it seem difficult because they've failed so much.

I think it is easy to write. Just put some peaceful idiot in charge and make people similar to Sylvanas plot in shadows. Is it that hard?

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WC2 Horde players shouldn't even exist. It was made clear in WC3 that the Horde is trying to improve after decades spent doing the Legion's dirty work. That's the very core of the faction. Blizzard should stop trying to cater to these people who still live in 1995. Hopefully there will never be a Garrosh 3.0 in the future.

Says person with a high elf on avatar.

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Speak for yourself. There are so many people that wants same thing that Garrosh wanted.
People who don't like things are just more loud. Same with Vol'jin or Sylvanas or even Thrall. All of them use some agenda that some people like.
There are people who want united faction and people who hate Alliance as real enemy.

I both want united Azeroth and fall of the Alliance.

[Skytotem]

I think it is easy to write. Just put some peaceful idiot in charge and make people similar to Sylvanas plot in shadows. Is it that hard?

The problem with that is it makes the person in charge look incompetent for not reigning in people like Sylv.

The best way is to make it so people who plot in the shadows friendlier with those in charge, and the conflict with the other faction *serious* but closer to a cold war.

[matrix123mko]

@taishar68

This is the correct take. While we bitch here, it's mostly an exercise for the fun of it. The only times changes are done on story bases is when there's a proper outcry across multiple channels where even people tangentially interested in the lore get salty about something. In as much as anyone here can do anything it's to draw attention and magnify these things - from Vol'jin's dialogue with the Alliance player in 5.3 to more recent examples like Tyrande's Silence in WoD, the Darkshore rewrites or the entire loyalist questline. Most of these things are entirely cosmetic, but they are the kind of changes that happen after outcry.

I wonder how much do we need to cry to remove Horde Council.

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The problem with that is it makes the person in charge look incompetent for not reigning in people like Sylv.

The best way is to make it so people who plot in the shadows friendlier with those in charge, and the conflict with the other faction *serious* but closer to a cold war.

Tell me more. I am not sure if plotting can be accepted by a peaceful warchief when there is no open war.

[Skytotem]

But let me be honest and cynical; I think given today’s cancel culture cancer that infests social media, it would not surprise me if something was changed to appease that particular mob, no matter the actual size. Which is completely different than using feedback based on how we see the Horde and Alliance in game.

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That is what I was trying to say.

"Cancel Culture" is overstated, but yes I agree that we should see a stronger push from players to see their concerns addressed in the narrative.


Nothing we're asking for should even conflict that much with what the writers want to do.

Is it unreasonable for players to want a roster of characters for their faction? To be shown to be good at the things we're TOLD our faction or race is supposed to be good at?

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Tell me more. I am not sure if plotting can be accepted by a peaceful warchief when there is no open war.

There could be peace but that doesn't solve resource scarcity, that doesn't solve territorial or religious conflicts, there are plenty of things that could bring the factions into REGIONAL conflict or subtler cloak and dagger conflicts.


There's also PROXY wars, like say, if the Night Elves agreed to the treaty... but decided to push a lot of the Centaur and Quillboar and Such to fight the Horde indirectly? But then some don't like being manipulated by the nelfs and shack up with the Horde? Etc...

There are lots of ways the factions can be in conflict without it escalating to TOTAL WAR OF ANNIHILATION BLOW UP CAPITAL CITIES RABBLE RABBLE

[ravenmoon]

Mnor tidbit - you care about highborns, not Night Elves. What made those great in Warcraft III was actually the exact opposite of what you want for them. I'd hate for Night Elves to be even more gutted than they are, by becoming inferior versions of BE and NB...

And frankly, at this point, I don't give a fuck about the division. I'd just love the parts of the Alliance who wants war with the Horde, no matter the means or costs to be propped up by the story like Garrosh/Sylvanas loyalists were, even if I know the costs of it. One can only be beaten only to be put in his cage so many times, after all...

And what makes you say that? I play a druid, I main one, and I defended the druidic culture of the night elves for the first 10 years of wow (6 on MMO champion) no one challenges the forest nature and love of the night elves any more, i had to argue against people who didn't think it was a real or serious thing.

I don't need to do that, but people nowadays, don't know knight elf lore, they have no idea, they make incorrect statements about night elves and the arcane, and I respond to them, - does that mean all I care about is Highborne? Or does that mean what I actually care bout is the truth, and the actual facts about the night elves?

If people keep challenging only the arcane lore but no longer the nature lore, what are most of my responses going to be based on? If they accepted it, I would only need to say it once, without a challenge there would be no further responses, and you'd not even be aware of what I liked, because it would be a non-issue with zero discussion. But that's not the case is it.

I can assure you , I'm not gutting night elves, my view on them is what they have been presented as, it's not my fault if you interpreted the heavy discussions on the arcane and Highborne as meaning that I want the night elves to become 100% Highborne and that's all I care about. I can only say, it is not, I wan the night elves to remain night elves, not become fully forest elves, or fully dark elves, and I don't want the existence of the Nightborne replacing their dark elf side either, because it's part of their identity - but players are going to make these mistakes because they don't know the lore, and they don't care, but if they discuss them on a forum where I notice, I'm gonna respond, even if it makes me look like I all care about concerning night elves is Highborne. It isn't, and that's the truth.


It displeases me to see so many erroneous assumptions, and wrong lore, worse is that High elves are the Highborne that replace the Night elves when they are their own group /race of no longer Highborne, but high/blood elves -being descendants, actual Highborne are night elves, and they're still around and all their lore is part of the Night elf lore, contrary to what they think, it is not annexed from the night elf or created only for the high elves - and explaining that sometimes takes time, because you have to take them through the lore and the history. This may make it seem like I only care about Highborne. Not the case.

[Saltysquidoon]

I think generally a lack of people who care about the lore and a long-form reduction of expectations with respect to media generally and a complete lack of any expectations from WoW specifically will make this a tall order.

Nothing we're asking for should even conflict that much with what the writers want to do.

Is it unreasonable for players to want a roster of characters for their faction? To be shown to be good at the things we're TOLD our faction or race is supposed to be good at?

Well, they want the horde to be the alliance and the alliance to be Anduin's fanclub so yeah what people seem to want and what the writers want appear to be in conflict.

[matrix123mko]

There could be peace but that doesn't solve resource scarcity, that doesn't solve territorial or religious conflicts, there are plenty of things that could bring the factions into REGIONAL conflict or subtler cloak and dagger conflicts.


There's also PROXY wars, like say, if the Night Elves agreed to the treaty... but decided to push a lot of the Centaur and Quillboar and Such to fight the Horde indirectly? But then some don't like being manipulated by the nelfs and shack up with the Horde? Etc...

There are lots of ways the factions can be in conflict without it escalating to TOTAL WAR OF ANNIHILATION BLOW UP CAPITAL CITIES RABBLE RABBLE

Wouldn't Baine just allow proxies to plunder his territories?

[TheRainman]

I'm automatically dismissed as an Alliance zealot, but I've been saying for a long time:

- WC3 Horde players are pissed at their faction being dragged through the mud
- WC2 Horde players are pissed at their faction being forced to be peaceful
- Alliance players are pissed for their faction being treated as passive, irrelevant, and a plot device for the Horde

The core problem is Metzen set up an impossible division in the Horde and then refused to pull the trigger. Thus, we keep swinging back and forth between the two Horde factions, with Blizz trying to cater to each. So much time is spent on the Horde that there's nothing left for the Alliance (aside from the writers openly stating they have no interest in the Alliance). Result, everyone is pissed, everyone feels they were done dirty and the other guy has it better.

Agreed on all points. Do you have a link for the writer's openly stating they have no interest in the alliance? Not calling you a liar, just haven't seen that and if it's true, would like to.

[SirBeef]

I am of the opinion that the reason Blizzard has been able to skate by with their atrocious writing is that so many players buy into the "Who has it worse" feud with regards to the bad writing or favoritism.

Despite the faction wars usually having some of the worst writing I've also felt that they could be some of the best if Blizzard BOTHERED to have consistency and attention to detail.

Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".


#LoreUnion

Blizzard has "skated" by since day one of making their own games. They have always been gameplay first story second, and within the story component, the rule of cool takes precedent.

So tired of listening to you chicken littles nostalgia crooners claiming things were so much better back then when their stories have been shit the entire time.