Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[StationaryHawk]

This is the official stance from Blizzard on when the war started and by who:

Q:
The Alliance army who invaded the Barrens wore the tabard of Theramore. Were they under Jaina Proudmoore's command? And their invasion happened way before the time of the incoming destruction of Theramore incident, so what's the reason behind their attack on Orgrimmar's territory? It seems the Alliance and the Horde were already in total war in Cataclysm.

A:
Because Garrosh wants to defeat the night elves and conquer the whole of Kalimdor under the banner of the Horde. So the humans of Theramore sent their army and tried to establish a military line between the night elf territory and Theramore. But it seems the result is not what they expected.

And yet, there's several quests that make it clear that Theramore was directly supporting the Alliance, in the form of both supplies and reinforcements. It must be convenient for Blizzard to be able to backpedal in quick QA sessions.

The point isn't that Theramore was an aggressor. It's that Jaina loved to talk big about her (and by extension, Theramore's) neutrality until the moment she had the opportunity to aid the Alliance. It was the same when she was in charge of Dalaran.

In case it's unclear, I'm not arguing in favour of the use of the mana bomb, only Theramore's validity as a target.

[Vaedan]

Blizzard had pretty much confirmed that the barrens conflict was started by North watch and co so I dont really see how it is a war crime

Jaina was pouring in legions of soldiers, steamtanks and ballista, burns down Taurajo and attacks the great gate, then garrosh has had enough, nukes it and suddenly it’s a war crime. «Innocents died». Innocents don’t matter in wow. There is a world quest where you run over like a thousand goblins with a dark iron golem and its seen as funny and hilarious

And Im not asking for a pissing contest about how much worse the horde has done, I am asking why its seen as a warcrime and not a legitimate military target *cough*

Theremare's offensive in cataclysm was not meant to conquer Barrens. It was about to open another front and divide Horde armies to relieve night elves, who were attacked first by Garrosh. Their intention was to push into Horde territory and cut of supply lines from Mulgore, and perhaps eventually lay siege to Thunder Bluff and force Horde to give up.

As has been already said, Theramore was valid target. The means of it's destruction were not. Even Kirin Tor, a neutral faction at the time, decided to help the Alliance because of this, and their leader died in its defense. Garrosh's soldiers also tortured any survivors they managed to imprison and killed them for fun.

[Lolites]

You are the PERFECT example of what i described in my first post. Jaded. Blind. And unspeakably spoiled.

then you are looking in the miror if you see that... and know shit about lore, Jaina tried to level orgrimmar after theramore, she was stoped by Kalec and Thrall, so not by herself or alliance...
sure, it wasnt "sanctified" action, yet it was attempted war crime and genocide by someone who was and still is prominent alliance leader... not punishing her is pretty much the same as saying you agree with her action...

[Soon-TM]

Jaina was about to destroy Orgrimmar with a tidal wave but then her dragon boyfriend asked her not to and she didn't want to lose that sweet dragon dick so she listened.

Don't forget about the Cata/MoP Thrall, aka Thrall Sue, also contributing to calm her down.

[cparle87]

It's seen as a war crime because Garrosh nuked the city, without any care or concern for the civilian population nonetheless. Furthermore, Garrosh vowed he would conquer all of Kalimdor for the Horde. He would've attacked Theramore regardless of Jaina's actions. The only ones responsible for Theramore's fall are Garrosh and Thrall, who entrusted all the military power to a crazy warmonger. There's a reason why in BfA Thrall cites Theramore as one of his greatest failures.

Those goblin were not innocents. They were military personnel of the Horde army who went to Zandalar for war purposes.

The civilian populace had already been evacuated by ship, though.

[TheRevenantHero]

Just because it had military facilities does not invalidate its status as civilian target. A metropolis with many barracks and military workshops would still be a civilian target. And it was a war crime, that's why the factions of the world decided to put Garrosh on trial for his many war crimes, including the Fall of Theramore.

The Alliance believed the Horde would use Taurajo to recruit troops and launch an attack on Theramore. Even Baine recognized that it was a valid military target.

Yes, actually it does. They added Theramore to Garrosh's crimes because the Alliance is hypocritical assholes. The main function of Theramore was as a naval installation for the Alliance. The fact that civilians lived there is irrelevant. If someone attacked a military base in real life, it wouldn't be a war crime just because civilians live there too.

Baine is an Alliance lapdog. Of course he said it was a valid target. Everyone knows it wasn't. HIS OWN PEOPLE EVEN TOLD HIM HE WAS WRONG. People who still say that Baine's word suddenly makes it ok for the Alliance to put CIVILIANS TO THE TORCH are just trying to justify the Alliance's shitty actions. Taurajo was a civilian town. so many people say that civilians were allowed to leave but the Alliance didn't wait. You can even go there in game and see the civilians who didn't get out dead amongst the flames.

[Derpleton]

This is the official stance from Blizzard on when the war started and by who:

Q:
The Alliance army who invaded the Barrens wore the tabard of Theramore. Were they under Jaina Proudmoore's command? And their invasion happened way before the time of the incoming destruction of Theramore incident, so what's the reason behind their attack on Orgrimmar's territory? It seems the Alliance and the Horde were already in total war in Cataclysm.

A:
Because Garrosh wants to defeat the night elves and conquer the whole of Kalimdor under the banner of the Horde. So the humans of Theramore sent their army and tried to establish a military line between the night elf territory and Theramore. But it seems the result is not what they expected.

Garrosh wanted to conquer Kalimdor and destroy the Alliance that much is certain. But in the battle for UC Varian was acting more like Garrosh. I think those two characters are very much foils to each other, one went down a path of destruction and the other pulled himself back from the brink but in Wrath/Cata they were pretty similar it was in MoP that the difference was felt.

[Benitora]

And yet, there's several quests that make it clear that Theramore was directly supporting the Alliance, in the form of both supplies and reinforcements. It must be convenient for Blizzard to be able to backpedal in quick QA sessions.

The point isn't that Theramore was an aggressor. It's that Jaina loved to talk big about her (and by extension, Theramore's) neutrality until the moment she had the opportunity to aid the Alliance. It was the same when she was in charge of Dalaran.

In case it's unclear, I'm not arguing in favour of the use of the mana bomb, only Theramore's validity as a target.

She helped Baine as well with his troubles in Mulgore. She helped Thrall by trying to be a diplomat for him and the alliance. She held a neutral meeting between the Alliance and the Horde in order to broker peace....and she allowed the horde to kill her own Father so that peace may remain in Kalimdor.

If anything, she has helped the alliance less than the horde...up to the point of Theramore.

[Saltysquidoon]

which faction would that be? the one that purged dalaran, tried to level orgrimmar, siege orgrimmar once and tried to siege it second time, attacked undercity twice, and thats just to name attacks on major cities...

I mean it's obvious on its face you're arguing in bad faith and anyone with even a passing understanding of the lore would see that immediately.

But I find it especially hilarious that; 1. You unironically included SoO; and; 2. Even read in a light most favourable to you, all of those 'events' combined don't even add up to theramore.

[Lolites]

She helped Baine as well with his troubles in Mulgore. She helped Thrall by trying to be a diplomat for him and the alliance. She held a neutral meeting between the Alliance and the Horde in order to broker peace....and she allowed the horde to kill her own Father so that peace may remain in Kalimdor.

If anything, she has helped the alliance less than the horde...up to the point of Theramore.

i mean its not like trying to get along with your neighbours when you are separated from your allys is helping only them its pretty much in your own interest
but yes, she tried to be diplomatic, but not until theramore, until garrosh get in warchief position, she pretty much cut it after (not that garrosh was interested in diplomacy )

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i think it was Anduins best moment admiting alliance have done some shit too, that is as far as i know first time any alliance leader addmitted they can be wrong and di some bad shit

[Ardenaso]

children and civilians were evacuated by boats before the siege that happened before the bombing...

The civilian populace had already been evacuated by ship, though.

guess what happened to all of them after that

[Benitora]

i mean its not like trying to get along with your neighbours when you are separated from your allys is helping only them its pretty much in your own interest
but yes, she tried to be diplomatic, but not until theramore, until garrosh get in warchief position, she pretty much cut it after (not that garrosh was interested in diplomacy )

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i think it was Anduins best moment admiting alliance have done some shit too, that is as far as i know first time any alliance leader addmitted they can be wrong and di some bad shit

The alliance have done some shit yea, not really denying that.
But compared to Chemical Warfare and mana bombs...it's basically nothing.

[Ardenaso]

The bombing itself was also obscene (see War Crimes). One thing I forgot to mention is how the Mana Bomb's lingering effects greatly damaged the planet, to the point that the area in which Theramore was built has become toxic and uninhabitable.

oh dang I forgot about that

[Katsutomai]

which faction would that be? the one that purged dalaran, tried to level orgrimmar, siege orgrimmar once and tried to siege it second time, attacked undercity twice, and thats just to name attacks on major cities...

1: Kicked the Blood Elves out of Dalaran. Didn't commit genoicde.
2: "Tried", but in the end didn't.
3: Helped Horde retake Orgrimmar from genocidal maniac.
4: Helped Horde get rid of a genocidal maniac.
5/6: First Undercity attack was to help kill a Dreadlord who had "apparently" ordered the Blighting of the Wrathgate that killed hundreds of Alliance and Horde soldiers. Second Undercity attack was in direct retaliation to the Horde committing genocide by burning down Teldrassil with who knows how many civilians and children left there.

Any other BS you want to throw out? That's not even taking in to account how many times the Horde has used Blight to permanently destroy things. Undercity. Southshore. Gilneas.

[Lord Pebbleton]

I'll repeat myself from the past: if the horde can use mana bombs, I want Alliance to go lazer-beam scorched-earth on Orgrimmar's ass with the Xenedar.

It's not the victory itself for me, it's how cowardly it was achieved, and how stupid it is that the Alliance won't retaliate with equal weapons of mass destruction.

[Candy Cough]

Shit like this is why it's impossible to take you seriously.

With your argument, then anything is justified against the horde, since they re-brought the Burning Legion to Azeroth.

How?? The night elves abused the well and got discovered by the legion. Night elves joined the alliance. A human opened the dark portal. It was the draenei that brought the legion to draenor. No draenei, no invasion and no first war.

Given that they’d been running from the legion for thousands of years and their stint on Draenor (200 years) was seen as an outlier in how long they were able to settle down, that works out to a lot of planets dying due to the Eredar and Draenei playing hide and seek.

[Tanaria]

Theramore was a legit target, just like every other location on Azeroth.

Regardless of how Garrosh and Sylvanas acted, Theramore and Darnassus were respectively legit targets, should they want to sound the horn for war with the opposing faction.
I think people see it as "unjustified" because of the way it was done...it was a total devastation, but this wasn't the first time the Blood Elves had created a mana bomb. Look at Netherstorm and the Kirin Tor Village.

[Hellobolis]

Is there any convention in Azeroth that explicitly forbids WMDs? Or is this more RL projecting BS on a game with hereditary monarchs, knights in shining armour and dragons?

It's all RL projecting. Nukes are bad in the real world thats why theramore was bad, please ignore all the other massive atrocities that happen in warcraft left right and center.

You can't even say its WMDs, really just nukes. The plague is a WMD too and nobody raises nearly as much a fuss about that one.

[LordVargK]

Probably because of the same reasons a nuclear attack on Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan or Iraq would have be considered unjustified.

Because using a nuke is a last resort. Not something you do without exhausting all other options.
If the Alliance used a manabomb (or the Vindicar's laser) after the burning of Teldrassil against every (or really, just one) Horde city it would be equally unjustified. Even at the last minute, in the battle of Orgrimmar against Sylvanas, a total annihilation of Orgrimmar would be unjustified. Because they are, as were Theramore, not JUST military targets. And either way, you don't drop a nuke without warnings or negotiations. Garrosh went from cold to total war in an instant.

[Saltysquidoon]

You can't even say its WMDs, really just nukes. The plague is a WMD too and nobody raises nearly as much a fuss about that one.

You mean like the time the plague caused the third war and the war after the wrathgate and when Garrosh told slyvanas not to use it on to worgen and sylvanas used it on the undercity?